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Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 26 2011,05:29) Hi BD, Why don't you drop the 'book of fraud,' it is only confusing you!
B'shem
YHVH
Why don't you embrace Shangdi ? You said you were his child but now in Chinese language you don't believe in Shangdi don'yt you believe that Yesu died for you?Or perhaps you believe in Joutei HE is God of Abraham and Most High this is His name in Japanese don't you worship Joutei? I do!
Shangdi, Joutei, Dios, Allah, Jah, Elohim only YHVH has the right to such titles so why disrespect His Sovereign nature in any language?
Good post, Asana.
The point is that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as their ONLY God. We also worship that same God.
That is not to say that Muslims haven't added to or taken away from scripture – that is what this discussion should be about. And it should be done ONE point at a time, IMO. Like, list something from the Quran that doesn't seem to be in line with scripture, and let Asana either show you that it IS in line with scripture, or fail to be able to do so.
THAT, my friends, is how we come to the truth of the Muslim religion. It is not by attacking stereotypes and spreading flawed, biased propaganda.
And to start that process, I believe you guys (Ed, Pierre) need to ACCEPT that the Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship. Accept that FACT, and then move on to where Muslims fall away from the scriptures.
For example, they don't believe Jesus even died. That is where I started with Asana, because the fact that Jesus died is definitely scriptural, can be proven through scriptures, and is therefore a good place to show one area where the Quran deviates from the teachings of the scriptures.
Pierre, you made a post to me in which you listed MANY things from the Quran that supposedly differed from scriptures. And then Asana addressed your post, all of it, showing you where he thought the Quran was right in line with the scriptures.
The problem for me was, both of the posts were too long for me to read, and filled with too many things to easily check against scripture. I would love to see your post broken down point by point, Pierre. Post only the FIRST thing from your list, and let Asana show where scripture backs the Quran on JUST THAT ONE POINT. Then we can discuss whether or not the Quran deviated from the scriptures on that one point, or not.
After that, we can move on to the next point, and the next point, etc.
(Just a suggestion. Because I know I'm not the only one here who skips over super-long posts – like the one I've just written.
)peace to all of you,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2011,06:11) Good post, Asana. The point is that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob as their ONLY God. We also worship that same God.
That is not to say that Muslims haven't added to or taken away from scripture – that is what this discussion should be about. And it should be done ONE point at a time, IMO. Like, list something from the Quran that doesn't seem to be in line with scripture, and let Asana either show you that it IS in line with scripture, or fail to be able to do so.
THAT, my friends, is how we come to the truth of the Muslim religion. It is not by attacking stereotypes and spreading flawed, biased propaganda.
And to start that process, I believe you guys (Ed, Pierre) need to ACCEPT that the Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship. Accept that FACT, and then move on to where Muslims fall away from the scriptures.
For example, they don't believe Jesus even died. That is where I started with Asana, because the fact that Jesus died is definitely scriptural, can be proven through scriptures, and is therefore a good place to show one area where the Quran deviates from the teachings of the scriptures.
Pierre, you made a post to me in which you listed MANY things from the Quran that supposedly differed from scriptures. And then Asana addressed your post, all of it, showing you where he thought the Quran was right in line with the scriptures.
The problem for me was, both of the posts were too long for me to read, and filled with too many things to easily check against scripture. I would love to see your post broken down point by point, Pierre. Post only the FIRST thing from your list, and let Asana show where scripture backs the Quran on JUST THAT ONE POINT. Then we can discuss whether or not the Quran deviated from the scriptures on that one point, or not.
After that, we can move on to the next point, and the next point, etc.
(Just a suggestion. Because I know I'm not the only one here who skips over super-long posts – like the one I've just written.
)peace to all of you,
mike
The funny thing is for each point you prove they willingly conjure up some sort of Justification, for instance the Bible condones stoning to death for AdulteryLeviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.The Quran says:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #2)Both are aligned with punishment for the crime the instructions only vary on the severity and God is certainly allowed to instruct different groups of people different levels of punishment. It is strange however how many Muslim countries picked up the idea of stoning that is not in the Quran and can only be found in the Jewish scriptures
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 25 2011,11:53) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 24 2011,19:19) bod Quote Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #45)but the Koran was not their so they copy the Christians writtrn gospel, and this is 63 years latter,
the Koran is the fake book
Pierre
God and the angels were there so need to Copy it is a revelation given to someone who spoke a different language
bodQuote Pierre
God and the angels were there so need to Copy it is a revelation given to someone who spoke a different language[/QUOTE]this is the most silly thing I ever heard ,YOU MEAN OR TRY TO SELL ME THE IDEA THAT THEIR WAS NO TRANSLATORS IN THE DAYS OF MUHAMMAD ?
YOU THINK ANY SANE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE THAT and on top of this Muhammad was a pagan,not a Jew or a Christian ,and God will use people like that
?the Koran is a fake,and is not from God but from the deceiver
Pierre
Mike
Quote And to start that process, I believe you guys (Ed, Pierre) need to ACCEPT that the Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship. Accept that FACT, and then move on to where Muslims fall away from the scriptures. I understand where you going,
but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 27 2011,12:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 25 2011,11:53) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 24 2011,19:19) bod Quote Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #45)but the Koran was not their so they copy the Christians writtrn gospel, and this is 63 years latter,
the Koran is the fake book
Pierre
God and the angels were there so need to Copy it is a revelation given to someone who spoke a different language
bodQuote Pierre
God and the angels were there so need to Copy it is a revelation given to someone who spoke a different languagethis is the most silly thing I ever heard ,YOU MEAN OR TRY TO SELL ME THE IDEA THAT THEIR WAS NO TRANSLATORS IN THE DAYS OF MUHAMMAD ?
YOU THINK ANY SANE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE THAT and on top of this Muhammad was a pagan,not a Jew or a Christian ,and God will use people like that
?the Koran is a fake,and is not from God but from the deceiver
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Looks like it is going to take Mike a while to figure that out.
B'shem
YHVHQuote (terraricca @ Dec. 27 2011,12:56) Mike Quote And to start that process, I believe you guys (Ed, Pierre) need to ACCEPT that the Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship. Accept that FACT, and then move on to where Muslims fall away from the scriptures. I understand where you going,
but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Pierre
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? If someone says I like this forum how would you be in a position to tell them that they really don't ?If someone says I worship the same God as Abraham worships how is it you could say they do not? What if I just started saying you don't worship Jehovah because that spelling and usage only was started 200 years ago by the Jehovah's witness and then I said I don't believe they worship God(which they do, but for the purpose of argument I am saying this) It would make no sense.
Ed believes that anyone who says they worship “I AM” is not worshiping God and that they are worshiping Satan why don't you address that
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 27 2011,23:14) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 27 2011,12:56) Mike Quote And to start that process, I believe you guys (Ed, Pierre) need to ACCEPT that the Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship. Accept that FACT, and then move on to where Muslims fall away from the scriptures. I understand where you going,
but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Pierre
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? If someone says I like this forum how would you be in a position to tell them that they really don't ?If someone says I worship the same God as Abraham worships how is it you could say they do not? What if I just started saying you don't worship Jehovah because that spelling and usage only was started 200 years ago by the Jehovah's witness and then I said I don't believe they worship God(which they do, but for the purpose of argument I am saying this) It would make no sense.
Ed believes that anyone who says they worship “I AM” is not worshiping God and that they are worshiping Satan why don't you address that
bodQuote If someone says I worship the same God as Abraham worships how is it you could say they do not? What if I just started Bod we know each other a few months at the least ,if you would declare to all that you are willing to embrase the faith of Christ ,I be the first one to give my hand to help you ,
but this is not what you have done and you are probably not ready to do ;
so are very first conversation you made clear to me that you are a muslim and part Christian ; this make you a place in hell,the reason why I say this is that you end up nowhere ,to the Christians and their God you are not one of them ;and to the Muslim as well you not a part of the group a group that demand exclusivity of your live physicly and mentaly ,
so it is you that put your self in that position and only you have to live with it ,if not well get out of it .there are after all two ways before you to says the least.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 27 2011,18:03) Quote Bod we know each other a few months at the least ,if you would declare to all that you are willing to embrase the faith of Christ ,I be the first one to give my hand to help you , but this is not what you have done and you are probably not ready to do ;
You still don't get it
Quote so are very first conversation you made clear to me that you are a muslim and part Christian ; I am not part Muslim and part Christian those are just words that you use to try to be prejudice about I said to be Christlike is to have the faith to submit to God completely so I followed the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Natural conclusion was Islam or being a Muslim(Submitter like Abraham)
Quote this make you a place in hell,the reason why I say this is that you end up nowhere ,to the Christians and their God you are not one of them ;and to the Muslim as well you not a part of the group a group that demand exclusivity of your live physicly and mentaly , Their is no “Christian God” God is the God of everyone and before anyone existed God existed you see how silly what you say sounds?
What religion was Abraham?
what religion was Noah?
What religion was Isaac?Tell me if you know and if you know then you will know what religion I am, and this question can be answered by anyone to help further this conversation along.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 26 2011,21:46) Hi Pierre, Looks like it is going to take Mike a while to figure that out.
Well teach me then, Ed. But do it one point at a time, showing SPECIFICALLY where the Quran has a teaching that is in direct opposition to the scriptures.I'm not a Muslim, Ed. But I can surely recognize when people base their arguments on stereotypes and propaganda instead of FACTS.
Show the FACTS, and then you will win your case. Do it one point at a time, and then people will actually SEE you win your case.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Miketell me how you come to the conclusion that in 622 AD Muhammad start to write down his book the Koran about the religion of Abraham who live 3000 years earlier,?
and why is it that he has used so brutal violence to subdue all the tribes around him and even any other that was worshiping the God of Abraham ??this is a paradox to me,
please explain
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,02:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Miketell me how you come to the conclusion that in 622 AD Muhammad start to write down his book the Koran about the religion of Abraham who live 3000 years earlier,?
and why is it that he has used so brutal violence to subdue all the tribes around him and even any other that was worshiping the God of Abraham ??this is a paradox to me,
please explain
Pierre
Actually the tribes around him were trying to kill them and at first they didn't fight back but you didn't know that because you only speculate or read propoganda.permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)You keep assuming God does not want people to fight but don't you know why the Children of Israel had to wander the desert for 40 years? Here let me teach you why
It was because they were afraid to fight, they did a report of the land that took 40 days to complete they came back with a report that said the land wasgreat but the inhabitants were strong and big so they cried and refused to fight and God punished them with a year for each day it took to make that report and not do what God told them to do you can find this entire story in the book of Numbers chapters 13 and 14
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 28 2011,11:28) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,02:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Miketell me how you come to the conclusion that in 622 AD Muhammad start to write down his book the Koran about the religion of Abraham who live 3000 years earlier,?
and why is it that he has used so brutal violence to subdue all the tribes around him and even any other that was worshiping the God of Abraham ??this is a paradox to me,
please explain
Pierre
Actually the tribes around him were trying to kill them and at first they didn't fight back but you didn't know that because you only speculate or read propoganda.permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)You keep assuming God does not want people to fight but don't you know why the Children of Israel had to wander the desert for 40 years? Here let me teach you why
It was because they were afraid to fight, they did a report of the land that took 40 days to complete they came back with a report that said the land wasgreat but the inhabitants were strong and big so they cried and refused to fight and God punished them with a year for each day it took to make that report and not do what God told them to do you can find this entire story in the book of Numbers chapters 13 and 14
bodyou got your cards all mix up,If Muhammad did not ad some support and in time after some fights and brutal killings he was then more popular and so start to impose his will on his followers
and this just grew bigger and bigger but the Jewish history and the true worship of the only true God at nothing to do with him,
the covenant made with Abraham was not transmitted to Ismael but to Isaac the only son of Sara and Abraham,and from Isaac to Jacobs and to his sons and specially to Judas his son, and later God made it with Moses and the entire nation of Israel ,
no descendant of Ismael or any other were involved ;
IF YOU NOT IN THE DEAL YOU ARE OUT OF THE DEAL
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,05:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 28 2011,11:28) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,02:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Miketell me how you come to the conclusion that in 622 AD Muhammad start to write down his book the Koran about the religion of Abraham who live 3000 years earlier,?
and why is it that he has used so brutal violence to subdue all the tribes around him and even any other that was worshiping the God of Abraham ??this is a paradox to me,
please explain
Pierre
Actually the tribes around him were trying to kill them and at first they didn't fight back but you didn't know that because you only speculate or read propoganda.permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)You keep assuming God does not want people to fight but don't you know why the Children of Israel had to wander the desert for 40 years? Here let me teach you why
It was because they were afraid to fight, they did a report of the land that took 40 days to complete they came back with a report that said the land wasgreat but the inhabitants were strong and big so they cried and refused to fight and God punished them with a year for each day it took to make that report and not do what God told them to do you can find this entire story in the book of Numbers chapters 13 and 14
bodyou got your cards all mix up,If Muhammad did not ad some support and in time after some fights and brutal killings he was then more popular and so start to impose his will on his followers
and this just grew bigger and bigger but the Jewish history and the true worship of the only true God at nothing to do with him,
the covenant made with Abraham was not transmitted to Ismael but to Isaac the only son of Sara and Abraham,and from Isaac to Jacobs and to his sons and specially to Judas his son, and later God made it with Moses and the entire nation of Israel ,
no descendant of Ismael or any other were involved ;
IF YOU NOT IN THE DEAL YOU ARE OUT OF THE DEAL
Pierre
You still haven't read your Bible my friend there were more than one covenant:Genesis 17:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
…. 23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
This was before Isaac was born, Isaac received an additional covenant not the only covenant.
Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy god, the god of thy fathers, Abraham and ishmael and Isaac, One Allah, and unto Him we have surrendered.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #133)Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #163)Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 28 2011,14:04) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,05:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 28 2011,11:28) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2011,02:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2011,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2011,19:56) but to say that Muslims are worshiper of the God of Abraham this I would like to see more info to this of how you come to that conclution
Well,Does the Quran ever teach the worship of gods BESIDES the God that Abraham worshipped?
If it does, then that would be a good place for you and Ed to start, IMO.
Miketell me how you come to the conclusion that in 622 AD Muhammad start to write down his book the Koran about the religion of Abraham who live 3000 years earlier,?
and why is it that he has used so brutal violence to subdue all the tribes around him and even any other that was worshiping the God of Abraham ??this is a paradox to me,
please explain
Pierre
Actually the tribes around him were trying to kill them and at first they didn't fight back but you didn't know that because you only speculate or read propoganda.permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #39)You keep assuming God does not want people to fight but don't you know why the Children of Israel had to wander the desert for 40 years? Here let me teach you why
It was because they were afraid to fight, they did a report of the land that took 40 days to complete they came back with a report that said the land wasgreat but the inhabitants were strong and big so they cried and refused to fight and God punished them with a year for each day it took to make that report and not do what God told them to do you can find this entire story in the book of Numbers chapters 13 and 14
bodyou got your cards all mix up,If Muhammad did not ad some support and in time after some fights and brutal killings he was then more popular and so start to impose his will on his followers
and this just grew bigger and bigger but the Jewish history and the true worship of the only true God at nothing to do with him,
the covenant made with Abraham was not transmitted to Ismael but to Isaac the only son of Sara and Abraham,and from Isaac to Jacobs and to his sons and specially to Judas his son, and later God made it with Moses and the entire nation of Israel ,
no descendant of Ismael or any other were involved ;
IF YOU NOT IN THE DEAL YOU ARE OUT OF THE DEAL
Pierre
You still haven't read your Bible my friend there were more than one covenant:Genesis 17:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
…. 23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
This was before Isaac was born, Isaac received an additional covenant not the only covenant.
Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy god, the god of thy fathers, Abraham and ishmael and Isaac, One Allah, and unto Him we have surrendered.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #133)Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #163)
bodyou have trouble in understanding the scriptures ,
their is only one covenant but many times confirmed trough out the descendants of Abraham ,Ismael was never part of Gods blessings ;
Ge 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.
Ge 15:14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.Ge 16:11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
Ge 16:12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.Ge 17:3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
Ge 17:4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
Ge 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.Ge 21:12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.
Ge 21:13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”for now look at it but no Muslim are not God loving people
Pierre
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