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Quote (princess @ Dec. 18 2011,06:10) Mike Perhaps you should read BD comments on sacrifice to fully understand what he is speaking of, he is not saying as the Gnostic do, the jesus was a phantom, he speaks that another took his place to be sacrificed i.e. Abraham was given a ram to replace his son. Why does Jesus cry out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
Hi Princess,To point to Psalm 22:1-31.
Both Chapters and Verse breaks
were not in the biblical texts at this time.B'shem
YHVHTrue Mike, you do have a lot of catching up to do.
All the same, you did not explain why does Jesus cry out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
Quote (princess @ Dec. 18 2011,13:10) Mike Perhaps you should read BD comments on sacrifice to fully understand what he is speaking of, he is not saying as the Gnostic do, the jesus was a phantom, he speaks that another took his place to be sacrificed i.e. Abraham was given a ram to replace his son. Why does Jesus cry out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
princesswhat ever is said by men and it is not written as such ,and explain by scriptures ,then it is men ,own mind ,imagination ,ego to out stand between others that makes men folly ,come out for his own destruction,
God as made his words written ,not to be mocked, for those words have been written through the holy spirit ,anyone that mocks those words will not be forgiven ,this is according to Christ own words,
it ridiculous,to believe that you can be a Christian,Muslim,and what ever at the same time ,
there is only one God,Jehovah ,one written word the Bible,one messiah ,Christ ,ALL OTHERS ARE NOT OF GOD,BUT OF THE EVIL ONE,
there is no other truth,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,07:52) Leviticus 27:28 speaks of a circumstance such as Samuel's. His mother totally devoted Samuel to Jehovah. That meant that she couldn't later change her mind, and redeem him for a lamb or bull, etc. Samuel belonged to Jehovah until the day he died. Verse 29 speaks of something completely different. It speaks of what is described in 1 Samuel 15.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] everything that belongs to them.
Footnote [a]: The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them; also in verses 8, 9, 15, 18, 20 and 21.
But Saul did not totally destroy the men and animals, for he spared the King and the best of the beasts. And according to the law in Leviticus 27:29, since those things were most holy to Jehovah after being devoted to destruction, Saul messed up and payed a heavy price for his failure.
The Amalekites were devoted, not “by” men, but “of”, or “from among” men, to which the passage pertains.
Neither of those verses have to do with the personal vow of Jepthah, nor do they speak of God's instruction and/or approval concerning human sacrifices.
How long did it take you to find that bit of apologetic gymnastics?
While you are entitled to interpret your bible anyway that you like, let's not pretend that your latest interpretation fits the passage as it naturally reads.
Since you are fond of footnotes, let's start there.
Quote 28 ‘Nevertheless, anything which a man [p]sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything [q]devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. 29 No [r]one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.[p] Leviticus 27:28 Lit anything devoted; or banned
[q] Leviticus 27:28 Or puts under the ban
[r] Leviticus 27:29 Lit one devoted; or bannedLeviticus 27:29 Or put under the banNotice how each one of those footnotes is very similar. That's because in every single case the root word is the same, “charam” in the original Hebrew.
So, in verse 28, the “thing” that man is setting apart is exactly the same “thing” that can not be redeemed in verse 29.
Also notice that the last line of verse 28 flows seamlessly into verse 29:
“… Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. 29 No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed … .“
These are not two separate thoughts.
Further, if you read the whole chapter – context, context, context! – you will see that the entire is concerned with man's offerings to God. It has nothing to do with war time conduct. In fact, there are specific verses elsewhere in the “Law” that deal with completely exterminating one's enemy.
Again, let's take a look at the YLT:
Quote 28`Only, no devoted thing which a man devoteth to Jehovah, of all that he hath, of man, and beast, and of the field of his possession, is sold or redeemed; every devoted thing is most holy to Jehovah. 29`No devoted thing, which is devoted of man, is ransomed, it is surely put to death.
Finally, consider what Jepthah did. He offered his virgin daughter as a burnt offering to God. Can you name any other “leader of God's people” who was not immediately sanctioned for disobeying God or committing some sinful act? Jepthah was never rebuked for this action by anyone at anytime ever! In fact, he was rewarded with more and more victories in battle.
Looks to me like what he did was well within the bounds of the law, and Leviticus 27:28-29 is the only part of the law that speaks to his actions.
Quote (princess @ Dec. 17 2011,15:54) True Mike, you do have a lot of catching up to do. All the same, you did not explain why does Jesus cry out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
Yes, I suppose I have much catching up to do on unscriptural notions. I haven't spent much time looking into secular religious beliefs, so they are all new to me.As for your question, Jesus was pointing us to one more OT prophecy that was fulfilled by him. As Ed pointed out, he referred to Psalm 22.
During his ministry, Jesus often said things like, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me.“
In his last words, he was pointing us to one more prophecy that spoke of him. Then he said, “It is accomplished”, and breathed his last.
But you think it was an imposter bull posing as the man Jesus? The ol' switcheroo? Please explain.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 17 2011,16:51) How long did it take you to find that bit of apologetic gymnastics?
Not long. I asked God for understanding, and He lead me to the scriptures I posted.As for the rest of your post, you are avoiding the main point. Because even in the YLT you quoted, the words of verse 29 are “which is devoted OF man”. You are reading this as “which is devoted BY man”. And that understanding is giving you the wrong impression, IMO.
God is the One who devoted the Amalekites to total destruction. The Amalekites were devoted OF (FROM AMONG) men BY God, and therefore Saul stepped in it big time by redeeming some of what was supposed to be TOTALLY destroyed to God.
As for Jepthah, I don't know how many times I can say the same thing. Jepthah is the one who made the vow. It is not written how God felt about that vow. Jepthah is the one who fulfilled that vow. And once again, it is not written how God felt about that action.
I can't really tell you more than I know.
wit
Quote Finally, consider what Jepthah did. He offered his virgin daughter as a burnt offering to God. Can you name any other “leader of God's people” who was not immediately sanctioned for disobeying God or committing some sinful act? Jepthah was never rebuked for this action by anyone at anytime ever! In fact, he was rewarded with more and more victories in battle. Looks to me like what he did was well within the bounds of the law, and Leviticus 27:28-29 is the only part of the law that speaks to his actions.
where did Jepthah burned his daughter ??
you must have dreamed this ;you are a joker right??
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,22:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 17 2011,13:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,09:17) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 16 2011,06:07) In your reply right above this one you say, “Jesus knew Judas would betray him, but that's the way it had to happen according to God's plan.”
Yes, I just noticed that while re-reading what I wrote yesterday. It was a bad choice of wording. I don't think God “planned” for Judas to betray His Son. I believe God “knew” how things would play out before they did.I should have said, “according to God's word”, or “according to the prophecy in Ps 41:9”.
Psalm 411Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
Hi BD,John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
It's funny how you put your 'book of fraud' above Jesus' own words, and also above the words of the bible.
B'shem
YHVH
So now the Holy Bible is the book of fraud?ED This is not in te Quran it is in the HOLY BIBLE:
Psalm 41
1Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
Do you deny that Jesus considered the poor? That's not what the bible says
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,00:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 16 2011,20:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,11:19) WE believe that Jesus was crucified, and died as a result. YOU apparently believe that the death of Jesus was FAKED, as if God played a big, funny joke on everyone. Walk us through YOUR understanding…………
It's simple GOD SAVED JESUS
Please explain. Did God fake the death of Jesus? Did everyone who saw Jesus die have a false vision put in their minds? When they carried Jesus' dead body off and put it in the cave, was Jesus just playing 'possum?Walk us through that day, from the sentencing to the burial.
Anything I would say would be speculation and what's more it would only increase your disbelief. The Bible only says:Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:13-15Can you tell me of any other circumstance where perceiving what they “SAW” would be a matter of importance?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,11:33) Quote (princess @ Dec. 17 2011,15:54) True Mike, you do have a lot of catching up to do. All the same, you did not explain why does Jesus cry out Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
Yes, I suppose I have much catching up to do on unscriptural notions. I haven't spent much time looking into secular religious beliefs, so they are all new to me.As for your question, Jesus was pointing us to one more OT prophecy that was fulfilled by him. As Ed pointed out, he referred to Psalm 22.
During his ministry, Jesus often said things like, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me.“
In his last words, he was pointing us to one more prophecy that spoke of him. Then he said, “It is accomplished”, and breathed his last.
But you think it was an imposter bull posing as the man Jesus? The ol' switcheroo? Please explain.
It is your view that Jesu s felt this way:Psalm 22:2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But the truth is this: John 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.Are you wrong or is Jesus wrong you decide
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 18 2011,13:08) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,22:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 17 2011,13:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,09:17) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 16 2011,06:07) In your reply right above this one you say, “Jesus knew Judas would betray him, but that's the way it had to happen according to God's plan.”
Yes, I just noticed that while re-reading what I wrote yesterday. It was a bad choice of wording. I don't think God “planned” for Judas to betray His Son. I believe God “knew” how things would play out before they did.I should have said, “according to God's word”, or “according to the prophecy in Ps 41:9”.
Psalm 411Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
Hi BD,John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
It's funny how you put your 'book of fraud' above Jesus' own words, and also above the words of the bible.
B'shem
YHVH
So now the Holy Bible is the book of fraud?ED This is not in te Quran it is in the HOLY BIBLE:
Psalm 41
1Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
Do you deny that Jesus considered the poor? That's not what the bible says
Hi BD,Do you not understand that “the passover” lamb represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ? in this account of Isaiah, YHVH's plan is quite clear.
Isaiah 53:4-9 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and
with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD(YHVH)
hath laid on him(Jesus) the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought
as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison
and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of
my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth. (In this account of Isaiah, YHVH makes the Gospel message, to be revealed to all later, quite clear)B'shem
YHVHQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 18 2011,19:41) Quote
Hi BD,Do you not understand that “the passover” lamb represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ? in this account of Isaiah, YHVH's plan is quite clear.
Isaiah 53:4-9 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
This first verse doesn't seem to apply to Jesus because no one saw Jesus as afflicted or opressed he was extremely popular
Quote 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and
with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD(YHVH)
hath laid on him(Jesus) the iniquity of us all.This verse is applied as prophesy in hindsight it appears to apply to Jesus only because we were taught that it does
Quote 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought
as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison
and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of
my people was he stricken.Once again Jesus was not oppressed or afflicted he was Liberating people and setting them free from afflictions also the Bible says when Jesus was arrested he did infact open his mouth and he did all the way til he gave up the Ghost, he was talking the whole entire time he even said when they came to arrest him
…..”Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”…
Quote 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth. (In this account of Isaiah, YHVH makes the Gospel message, to be revealed to all later, quite clear)This also appears to apply to Jesus as a hind sight prophecy and besides I can't get past this first part
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.Everyone was attracted to him to the point where the authorities wanted to muder him mainly for that reason specifically
B'shem
YHVHIsaiah
21 “Remember these things, Jacob,
for you, Israel, are my servant]/B].
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 17 2011,20:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,00:38) Did God fake the death of Jesus? Did everyone who saw Jesus die have a false vision put in their minds? When they carried Jesus' dead body off and put it in the cave, was Jesus just playing 'possum? Walk us through that day, from the sentencing to the burial.
Anything I would say would be speculation and what's more it would only increase your disbelief.
So you are asking us to believe your speculation over what the scriptures CLEARLY teach? And you're asking this because a book written many years after the death of Jesus suggested that Jesus didn't really die?That's just too much for me, Asana. I'll believe the witness of the disciples who were there and saw Jesus die.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 17 2011,20:19) It is your view that Jesu s felt this way: Psalm 22:2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But the truth is this: John 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.Are you wrong or is Jesus wrong you decide
That's pretty weak, Asana. Even as David was writing those words, do you think David thought there was a place he could go where God could no longer hear him?It is as if my son were dying, and even though I know God can always hear me, and knows what I need before I even ask for it, I still say, “God, why can't you hear my prayers? My son is still sick.”
It was a statement of urgency and despair, because despite the fact that both Jesus and David knew God was with them, out of the weakness of their flesh they were saying, “Come on God! Aren't you listening? I need you NOW!”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,06:49) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 17 2011,16:51) How long did it take you to find that bit of apologetic gymnastics?
Not long. I asked God for understanding, and He lead me to the scriptures I posted.As for the rest of your post, you are avoiding the main point.
…
As for Jepthah, I don't know how many times I can say the same thing. Jepthah is the one who made the vow. It is not written how God felt about that vow.
The fact that you don't know how your god feels about human sacrifice speaks volumes.Really? Human sacrifice? No clear opinion? Wow.
As I said, you can interpret scripture any way you like, if it makes you feel better, but I noticed that you skipped over the following part of post.
I said:
Quote Can you name any other “leader of God's people” who was not immediately sanctioned for disobeying God or committing some sinful act? Jepthah was never rebuked for this action by anyone at anytime ever! In fact, he was rewarded with more and more victories in battle. Looks to me like what he did was well within the bounds of the law, and Leviticus 27:28-29 is the only part of the law that speaks to his actions.
Until you rise to that challenge, it will be clear that you don't really have anything but an apologetic spin to stand on.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 18 2011,06:50) where did Jepthah burned his daughter ??
you must have dreamed this ;you are a joker right??
Judges 11:29:Quote Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah … Judges 11:30:
Quote And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD … Judges 11:31:
Quote … whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me … I will offer it up as a burnt offering. Judges 11:34:
Quote When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing … Judges 11:39:
Quote … he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. Joke? No.
Scripture? Yes?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,12:43) Really? Human sacrifice? No clear opinion? Wow.
I also don't know how God will deal with your disbelief in Him. Why would you think I would know God's mind?
I follow Micah 6:8 – Love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with your God. I don't need to know God's every thought on every subject in order to do that, right? He has never requested me personally to sacrifice a human being. If and when He does, I'll let you know.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,12:43) I noticed that you skipped over the following part of post. I said:
Quote Can you name any other “leader of God's people” who was not immediately sanctioned for disobeying God or committing some sinful act? Jepthah was never rebuked for this action by anyone at anytime ever! In fact, he was rewarded with more and more victories in battle. Looks to me like what he did was well within the bounds of the law, and Leviticus 27:28-29 is the only part of the law that speaks to his actions.
Until you rise to that challenge, it will be clear that you don't really have anything but an apologetic spin to stand on.
I'm sorry, I didn't think you could possibly be serious with that question. Which one of 30 kings would you like me to start with? Manasseh ruled 55 years over Israel although he was wicked in the eyes of God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,03:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 17 2011,20:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2011,00:38) Did God fake the death of Jesus? Did everyone who saw Jesus die have a false vision put in their minds? When they carried Jesus' dead body off and put it in the cave, was Jesus just playing 'possum? Walk us through that day, from the sentencing to the burial.
Anything I would say would be speculation and what's more it would only increase your disbelief.
So you are asking us to believe your speculation over what the scriptures CLEARLY teach? And you're asking this because a book written many years after the death of Jesus suggested that Jesus didn't really die?That's just too much for me, Asana. I'll believe the witness of the disciples who were there and saw Jesus die.
Can you show me such scriptues that say the disciples witnessed this crucifixion?Where was Matthew?
Where was Mark?
Where was Luke?There is only one scripture that seems to say that John was there and that is not even clear so why do you say you believe eyewitnesses when you call those eye witnesses people who actually.
Matthew 26:56
…………………..forsook him, and fled.
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