Reason and Religion

[mikeboll64]

The destruction happened Asana.  Jesus wasn't redeemed out of it.  It happened.  And then AFTER he was destroyed, God raised him from that destroyed state.

Asana, I see you posting a lot of problems.  But I don't see you offering any solutions.

What is YOUR answer?  Why do YOU think Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead”?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,09:43)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,23:25) Mike, Do you realize that you just confirmed that human sacrifices were acceptable to your god, and that Jepthah's sacrifice of his virgin daughter was righteous under the law? Does all of this seem reasonable to you? I can't speak to Jepthah's sacrifice of his daughter.  He is the one who pledged, and he is the one who followed through on his pledge.  How God personally felt about the entire situation is not explained to us. But I know of one human who God sacrificed on behalf of us all.  And it doesn't have to seem reasonable to me.  The ways of God are much higher than the ways of man.  If that's the way God chose to atone for the sins of mankind, then who am I to question Him? I think you and I look at the value of a human life differently.  You probably think this is all there is.  I think differently.  Because not only did God sacrifice the human life of His Son, but He almost immediately raised him up to an even better life.

Do you understand that a SACRIFICE is only a SACRIFICE when you can't get what you loss back, if you can get it back it's not a sacrifice it's an inconvenience.

It is something given up or lost if you get it back it is not a sacrifice.

But there is a larger issue you are completely missing how can Judas betray Jesus if this was an eternal plan?

How did God offer Jesus up to Himself as atonement unless you consider God used murder as a ritual atonement to appease Himself?

Just think about these questions and the next time you read the NT you will read it differently and find the True story about the Messiah of Israel being sent into a situation where he was reinstructing people how to Glorify God and doing a certain mission

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Where is this I came to die for the world? Where is my Father must Sacrifice me?

His mission and the mission he taught was REPENT not SACRIFICE look:

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

And he heard this from GOD HIMSELF

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Jesus said:

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

And so you say that the dead body of Jesus would mean something? Then why would Jesus say?

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,10:11)

The destruction happened Asana.  Jesus wasn't redeemed out of it.  It happened.  And then AFTER he was destroyed, God raised him from that destroyed state. Asana, I see you posting a lot of problems.  But I don't see you offering any solutions. What is YOUR answer?  Why do YOU think Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead”?

Believe me it would have been easier to believe what everyone else believed but long before I read the Quran I believed that GOD saved Jesus and it was God Almighty that day in the bookstore that guided me to pick up that Quran and read it for the first time and all it did was confirm what God had already guided me to believe because when I read the story in Leviticus about Atonement without Blood Sacrifice and how the Scapegoat was set free into the wilderness to be turned over to the devil(Azazel)

It immediately reminded me of Jesus being baptized and being led out into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil

When I connected the fact that leviticus says that all the sins must be placed on the scapegoat by the hand of a suitable man I connected the Baptism of Jesus and him calling John the greatest man born of woman in otherwords the most suitable for the task

and Finally I kept asking myself why would Jesus need to be baptized in the first place but it makes perfect sense if in fact John was placing the sins of Israel on the head of Jesus which is why if Satan could have caused him to sin he would have failed that is why whomsoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life because of that baptism

And hence his mission was completed and as they plotted to Kill him God plotted too and God Saved Jesus but why didn't Jesus explain this to everyone at the time?

Isaiah 6:10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:15
for the heart of this people is greatly fatted , and they heard heavily with ears, and they have closed their eyes, lest sometime they see with eyes, and with ears hear, and understand in heart, and they be converted, and I heal them.

Acts 3:19
Therefore be ye repentant, and be ye converted, that your sins be done away, that when the times of refreshing shall come from the sight of the Lord,

And the entire reason it was allowed to believe that he died on the cross was this:

Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Romans 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Jews think of Christians as foolish and it does anger them, just think Christians create all sorts of ideas like the trinity, Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of God these things drive any TRULY monotheistic individual to anger.But it fulfills another promise

Psalm 2:8
Ask thou of me, and I shall give to thee heathen men (for) thine heritage; and (for) thy possession the terms of earth. (Ask thou of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thy inheritance; and the ends of the earth for thy possession.)

[bodhitharta]

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless

Why would Jesus becalling his “Sacrifice” a Condemnation wouldn't have to be an offering to qualify as a Sacrifice?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21)

Do you understand that a SACRIFICE is only a SACRIFICE when you can't get what you loss back, if you can get it back it's not a sacrifice it's an inconvenience.

When the Israelites sacrificed a lamb or bull to God, was the entire animal sent up in smoke?  Or did they have huge feasts filled with good food and drink – enjoying the very things they sacrificed?

Asana, your posts are getting too long for me to stay focused or interested.   I prefer things one point at a time.  When people here submit long, rambling posts, I forewarn them that I will “cherry pick” which ever point I want to answer, and answer only that one point.  So, consider yourself forewarned.    So if there is one point that is very important to you, post that point all by itself.  That way, you can be assured that I will address it.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21)

But there is a larger issue you are completely missing how can Judas betray Jesus if this was an eternal plan?

Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?  

Please don't move forward until you've actually addressed my questions in this post.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,18:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21) Do you understand that a SACRIFICE is only a SACRIFICE when you can't get what you loss back, if you can get it back it's not a sacrifice it's an inconvenience. When the Israelites sacrificed a lamb or bull to God, was the entire animal sent up in smoke?  Or did they have huge feasts filled with good food and drink – enjoying the very things they sacrificed? Asana, your posts are getting too long for me to stay focused or interested.   I prefer things one point at a time.  When people here submit long, rambling posts, I forewarn them that I will “cherry pick” which ever point I want to answer, and answer only that one point.  So, consider yourself forewarned.    So if there is one point that is very important to you, post that point all by itself.  That way, you can be assured that I will address it. Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21) But there is a larger issue you are completely missing how can Judas betray Jesus if this was an eternal plan? Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?   Please don't move forward until you've actually addressed my questions in this post. peace, mike

Mike

He does not like that because this would show him that he as no point to defend,(in scriptures or the Koran)

and then stop responding to the quotes

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,11:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21) Do you understand that a SACRIFICE is only a SACRIFICE when you can't get what you loss back, if you can get it back it's not a sacrifice it's an inconvenience. When the Israelites sacrificed a lamb or bull to God, was the entire animal sent up in smoke?  Or did they have huge feasts filled with good food and drink – enjoying the very things they sacrificed? Asana, your posts are getting too long for me to stay focused or interested.   I prefer things one point at a time.  When people here submit long, rambling posts, I forewarn them that I will “cherry pick” which ever point I want to answer, and answer only that one point.  So, consider yourself forewarned.    So if there is one point that is very important to you, post that point all by itself.  That way, you can be assured that I will address it. Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,17:21) But there is a larger issue you are completely missing how can Judas betray Jesus if this was an eternal plan? Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?   Please don't move forward until you've actually addressed my questions in this post. peace, mike

Quote

Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?

No, I am saying you cannot “betray” someone with something they are already planning to have happen.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 15 2011,13:28)

Mike He does not like that because this would show him that he as no point to defend,(in scriptures or the Koran) and then stop responding to the quotes Pierre

You are incorrect

[TimothyVI]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,11:36)

Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?   peace, mike

Wasn't it all part of God's plan?
Didn't Judas merely do what God wanted?
If Judas had not done what he did, wouldn't he have betrayed God?

Tim

[bodhitharta]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 15 2011,21:14)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,11:36) Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?   peace, mike Wasn't it all part of God's plan? Didn't Judas merely do what God wanted? If Judas had not done what he did, wouldn't he have betrayed God? Tim

That's my point exactly in The Christian religion no betrayal from Judas = No salvation

If it is seen for what it really was “betrayal” then it was not the plan for Jesus to be Crucified as some sort of sacrifice it was plain and simple a Plot of Murder

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,04:43)

I can't speak to Jepthah's sacrifice of his daughter.

I can't move beyond this first sentence.

Do you really have no comment on whether or not sacrificing virgins to God is an acceptable practice?

If not, I can think of only one thing to say:

Quote

Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion.

(Quote from Steven Weinberg)

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,09:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,04:43) I can't speak to Jepthah's sacrifice of his daughter. I can't move beyond this first sentence. Do you really have no comment on whether or not sacrificing virgins to God is an acceptable practice? If not, I can think of only one thing to say: Quote Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion. (Quote from Steven Weinberg)

wit

you do not understand what is going on here right ?

first Jepthah made a pledge,God has nothing to do with it ,

and God probably made it that it is his daugther that would be the first out ,from now on it was the words of Jepthah that would become either his blessing or his downfall,
just remember we all be judged by our own words ,you and I included ,so what is your word worth ? what would you have done in Jepthah situation ??

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 16 2011,04:42)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,09:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,04:43) I can't speak to Jepthah's sacrifice of his daughter. I can't move beyond this first sentence. Do you really have no comment on whether or not sacrificing virgins to God is an acceptable practice? If not, I can think of only one thing to say: Quote Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion. (Quote from Steven Weinberg) wit you do not understand what is going on here right ? first Jepthah made a pledge,God has nothing to do with it , and God probably made it that it is his daugther that would be the first out ,from now on it was the words of Jepthah that would become either his blessing or his downfall, just remember we all be judged by our own words ,you and I included ,so what is your word worth ? what would you have done in Jepthah situation ?? Pierre

I'll tell you what I would have done, I would have said God please forgive me just like when I do any other sin

[bodhitharta]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 16 2011,05:06)

I'll tell you what I would have done, I would have said God please forgive me just like when I do any other sin

Meaning I would not have sacrificed my Daughter and would have had enough faith to believe God would understand

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 15 2011,23:42)

wit you do not understand what is going on here right ? first Jepthah made a pledge,God has nothing to do with it , and God probably made it that it is his daugther that would be the first out ,from now on it was the words of Jepthah that would become either his blessing or his downfall, just remember we all be judged by our own words ,you and I included ,so what is your word worth ? what would you have done in Jepthah situation ?? Pierre

Really?  God had nothing to do with it?

He didn't answer Jepthah's prayer by granting him victory over his enemies?  He didn't have any control over what came out of Jepthah's house to greet him?  He didn't make provisions for human sacrifice in the law, (Leviticus 27:28-29)?

Do you not believe the bible either?

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,12:41)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 15 2011,23:42) wit you do not understand what is going on here right ? first Jepthah made a pledge,God has nothing to do with it , and God probably made it that it is his daugther that would be the first out ,from now on it was the words of Jepthah that would become either his blessing or his downfall, just remember we all be judged by our own words ,you and I included ,so what is your word worth ? what would you have done in Jepthah situation ?? Pierre Really?  God had nothing to do with it? He didn't answer Jepthah's prayer by granting him victory over his enemies?  He didn't have any control over what came out of Jepthah's house to greet him?  He didn't make provisions for human sacrifice in the law, (Leviticus 27:28-29)? Do you not believe the bible either?

wit

Jdg 11:30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD? “If you give the Ammonites into my hands,
Jdg 11:31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD'S, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
Jdg 11:32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands.

read it and understand

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,02:40)

No, I am saying you cannot “betray” someone with something they are already planning to have happen.

Hi Asana,

Your statement is inaccurate.  Jesus knew Judas would betray him, but that's the way it had to happen according to God's plan.

Jesus knowing did not stop Judas from meeting with those who wanted Jesus dead, and taking a bribe from them.

Judas DID betray Jesus, for it is written.  And Jesus DID know about it beforehand, for that is also written.

Are you confusing “betray” with “catch off guard”? Because if you are, I agree that Jesus wasn't caught off guard by Judas' betrayal. But Judas still ratted Jesus out, despite the fact that Jesus knew he would.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 15 2011,04:14)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,11:36) Are you saying that because Jesus knew who would betray him before the fact, he wasn't betrayed?   peace, mike Wasn't it all part of God's plan? Didn't Judas merely do what God wanted? If Judas had not done what he did, wouldn't he have betrayed God? Tim

Does scripture say that God “planned” it, or wanted it to go down this way?

Or did God just know what would happen?

I don't think we can say that God “planned” the Israelites to rebel against Him over and over for years. God didn't create robots or yes-men. He created beings with their own free will to choose.

God KNOWING that the Israelites would constantly disobey Him is different than Him PLANNING for them to do so – as if He purposely caused this behavior.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 15 2011,09:16)

Do you really have no comment on whether or not sacrificing virgins to God is an acceptable practice?

Does the scripture say God asked for, or approved this sacrifice?  If not, then I can't speak about how God felt or reacted to this situation, because I truly don't know.

Nor do I know of any case where virginS were sacrificed to Jehovah.

The way you've taken one single sacrifice and worded your question as if this was a common, everyday occurance, has not gone unnoticed by me.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,12:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 16 2011,05:06) I'll tell you what I would have done, I would have said God please forgive me just like when I do any other sin Meaning I would not have sacrificed my Daughter and would have had enough faith to believe God would understand

Good thing God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, instead of asking you, huh?

I believe many people value human life much higher than what it should be. It's like we're living in the pig pen, wallowing in feces, and just over the hill, out of our sight, is a beautiful mansion in a paradise garden. But we will do anything in our power to maintain our existence in that pig pen, because we don't truly believe the mansion in the garden exists.

If Jepthah's daughter WAS accepted by Jehovah as a pleasing sacrifice, it would have been the best thing to ever happen to her. Perhaps she was one of those who never tasted death, but was changed in the twinking of an eye, and went directly to God.

Who knows?

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