- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2011,02:58) bodhitharta wrote: Quote God didn't answer his prayer for him God answered his prayer for the Israelites to defeat Ammon by your logic Edom gave up his birthright to Jacob by God's design or the people of the flood did so because God “was in control of the situation” Have you not read the bible?
Genesis 25:23:
Quote And the LORD said to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger.”Your freewill defense just fell through the thin ice that it was skating on.
Additionally, if God found this act so abhorrent, as you have claimed, why did he give Jepthah additional victories and allow him to continue “judging” Israel for six more years, (Judges 12:1-7)? Are you telling me that the God who called for the death of a man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath, (
), was too timid to make an example of a man who practiced human sacrifice?Get off the pond, bodhitharta! The ice under your feet is way too thin.
Quote Your freewill defense just fell through the thin ice that it was skating on. How is that when Esau had to swear to give Jacob his birthright by his own free will?
Genesis 25
30And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
You have once again proven what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:33-35
King James Version (KJV)
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Yet you keep showing examples of people swearing even though:
Matthew 5
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Your whole argument falls apart here because GOD COMMANDED the SABBATH be kept and layed out the punishment for it not being kept
Numbers 15:35-36
35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
By the way you are incorrect anyway Jephtah did not Sacrifice his daughter
Judges 11:29-31
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
29and the Spirit of Jehovah is on Jephthah, and he passeth over Gilead and Manasseh, and passeth over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he hath passed over to the Bene-Ammon.
30And Jephthah voweth a vow to Jehovah, and saith, `If Thou dost at all give the Bene-Ammon into my hand —
31then it hath been, that which at all cometh out from the doors of my house to meet me in my turning back in peace from the Bene-Ammon — it hath been to Jehovah, or I have offered up for it — a burnt-offering.'
He offered up her life as being consecrated to Jehovah meaning she would keep her purity
Judges 11
38And he saith, `Go;' and he sendeth her away two months, and she goeth, she and her friends, and she weepeth for her virginity on the hills;
39and it cometh to pass at the end of two months that she turneth back unto her father, and he doth to her his vow which he hath vowed, and she knew not a man; and it is a statute in Israel:
40from time to time the daughters of Israel go to talk to the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite, four days in a year.
In other words Jephthah's daughter was not burned at all It has nothing to do with a sacrificial death, but it has to do with a dedicated life. She was dedicated to a perpetual virginity.
Likewise Jesus life had nothing to do with Sacrifice but a perpetual dedication to God as a High Priest in the order of Melchezidek.
Check Mate!
bodhitharta,
As for Esau:
Romans 9:10-13:
Quote And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” As for oaths:
You keep quoting Matthew, but Matthew was not written when Jepthah made his vow. However, these commandments were:
Numbers 30:2:
Quote If a man makes a vow to the LORD, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. Leviticus 27:28-29:
Quote Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death. As for Young's Literal Translation:
Nice spin. How long did it take you to find that complete reinterpretation of the story?
In every other version, the vow is quite clear:
Quote …whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering. Note how this vow dovetails quite nicely with the commandment in Leviticus 27:28-29.
Trying to exploit the confusing wording in the YLT is a lame attempt to skirt around the obvious interpretation of the passage as translated consistently by every other version.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,16:05) Leviticus 27:28-29: Quote Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.
Asana,Read the above verse in conjunction with the one below:
John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?Jesus could not be redeemed, for he had already been set apart as devoted to destruction, and was therefore a most holy thing to Jehovah.
The rest of your post asks me to believe in some “conspiracy theory”, where the death of Jesus on a stake was somehow faked and lied about by the Apostles, disciples, and the Romans.
How is Jesus the firstborn from the DEAD if he never died? What hope of resurrection from the DEAD is there for us, if Christ didn't truly die, and wasn't truly resurrected from death?
My faith centers on the fact that Jesus truly died, and that his Father and God truly raised him from the dead. There are probably close to 100 scriptures that testify to these two things. I will not disregard those scriptures for an unfounded conspiracy theory.
peace,
mikeQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2011,09:05)
Genesis 32:4
And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:Where is it written anywhere that Esau ever actually became a servant of Esau? NOWHERE,
That is why the Quran says:
O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2011,10:59) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,16:05) Leviticus 27:28-29: Quote Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.
Asana,Read the above verse in conjunction with the one below:
John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?Jesus could not be redeemed, for he had already been set apart as devoted to destruction, and was therefore a most holy thing to Jehovah.
The rest of your post asks me to believe in some “conspiracy theory”, where the death of Jesus on a stake was somehow faked and lied about by the Apostles, disciples, and the Romans.
How is Jesus the firstborn from the DEAD if he never died? What hope of resurrection from the DEAD is there for us, if Christ didn't truly die, and wasn't truly resurrected from death?
My faith centers on the fact that Jesus truly died, and that his Father and God truly raised him from the dead. There are probably close to 100 scriptures that testify to these two things. I will not disregard those scriptures for an unfounded conspiracy theory.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike
Peace unto you. Did Lazarus die before Jesus? so how could Jesus be firstborn from the dead?
Also if Jesus was devoted to destruction how is it he was not destroyed?
bod
Quote O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)is this not racism
Mike,
Do you realize that you just confirmed that human sacrifices were acceptable to your god, and that Jepthah's sacrifice of his virgin daughter was righteous under the law?
Does all of this seem reasonable to you?
bodhitharta,
Why didn't you just start by saying that you don't believe what the bible says? It could have saved us both some time.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,13:24) bod Quote O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)is this not racism
NO, It is not.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2011,16:26) bodhitharta, Why didn't you just start by saying that you don't believe what the bible says? It could have saved us both some time.
Are you at a lost for words?Genesis 32:4
And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:Where is it written anywhere that Esau ever actually became a servant of Esau? NOWHERE,
Don't try to get out of this you wanted to debate so answer the question
Where is it written anywhere that Esau ever actually became a servant of Esau?
The truth is Jacob is calling himself a servant of Esau, am I right or not?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,00:26) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,13:24) bod Quote O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)is this not racism
NO, It is not.
BodThen why is it directed to the Jews ?
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote The truth is Jacob is calling himself a servant of Esau, am I right or not? Are you serious? Do you really think that the bible depicts Jacob as the servant of Esau?
(For the record, that quote from Jacob is in the context of Jacob being concerned that Esau has come to kill him, so he is trying to suck up to Esau. He even tries to buy him off later on in the story.)
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,17:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,00:26) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,13:24) bod Quote O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)is this not racism
NO, It is not.
BodThen why is it directed to the Jews ?
Because the Jews wrote the books and did the altering don't believe me? The bible itself says the same thing:Jeremiah 8:8
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
8How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.
These scribes were Jews, right?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 15 2011,01:14) bodhitharta wrote: Quote The truth is Jacob is calling himself a servant of Esau, am I right or not? Are you serious? Do you really think that the bible depicts Jacob as the servant of Esau?
(For the record, that quote from Jacob is in the context of Jacob being concerned that Esau has come to kill him, so he is trying to suck up to Esau. He even tries to buy him off later on in the story.)
Then you agree that Esau was by no means a servant of Jacob.You see what I mean just be reasonable and admit that Esau was never a servant of Jacob so why was that written?
Jeremiah 8:8
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
8How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.
…….They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” ………Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41
bodhitharta,
So, as I originally said:
Quote Why didn't you just start by saying that you don't believe what the bible says? It could have saved us both some time. If your point is that the bible is full of falsehoods, then I can certainly agree to that.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,12:50) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,17:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 15 2011,00:26) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 14 2011,13:24) bod Quote O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)is this not racism
NO, It is not.
BodThen why is it directed to the Jews ?
Because the Jews wrote the books and did the altering don't believe me? The bible itself says the same thing:Jeremiah 8:8
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
8How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.
These scribes were Jews, right?
bodso what you are saying is that ,the bible as been replaced by the Koran because it is more truthfull ?
and so the Torah of the Jews is full of lies ,??
and this would make Muhammat a holy man by having saved the truth of Jehovah God
???????Pierre
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 13 2011,18:16) Did Lazarus die before Jesus? so how could Jesus be firstborn from the dead?
I assume he is the “firstborn from the dead into everlasting life”. What is your understanding?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 13 2011,18:16) Also if Jesus was devoted to destruction how is it he was not destroyed?
The word “destruction” in this case refers to “dedicated” to Jehovah.From NETNotes, a footnote from Leviticus 27:21:
The Hebrew word חֵרֶם (kherem) is a much discussed term. In this and the following verses it refers in a general way to the fact that something is permanently devoted to the Lord and therefore cannot be redeemed.Besides, Jesus was destroyed. God raised him back up from that destruction.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,23:25) Mike, Do you realize that you just confirmed that human sacrifices were acceptable to your god, and that Jepthah's sacrifice of his virgin daughter was righteous under the law?
Does all of this seem reasonable to you?
I can't speak to Jepthah's sacrifice of his daughter. He is the one who pledged, and he is the one who followed through on his pledge. How God personally felt about the entire situation is not explained to us.But I know of one human who God sacrificed on behalf of us all. And it doesn't have to seem reasonable to me. The ways of God are much higher than the ways of man. If that's the way God chose to atone for the sins of mankind, then who am I to question Him?
I think you and I look at the value of a human life differently. You probably think this is all there is. I think differently. Because not only did God sacrifice the human life of His Son, but He almost immediately raised him up to an even better life.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 15 2011,09:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 13 2011,18:16) Did Lazarus die before Jesus? so how could Jesus be firstborn from the dead?
I assume he is the “firstborn from the dead into everlasting life”. What is your understanding?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 13 2011,18:16) Also if Jesus was devoted to destruction how is it he was not destroyed?
The word “destruction” in this case refers to “dedicated” to Jehovah.From NETNotes, a footnote from Leviticus 27:21:
The Hebrew word חֵרֶם (kherem) is a much discussed term. In this and the following verses it refers in a general way to the fact that something is permanently devoted to the Lord and therefore cannot be redeemed.Besides, Jesus was destroyed. God raised him back up from that destruction.
So he wasn't dedicated to destruction because if God raised him from destruction he wouldnot have been redeemed from it.As far as being first to have everlasting life Jesus said we should not even think that Moses and Elijah are not the living and they died before him
Besides that wasn't Elijah taken up to heaven Alive and Enoch too?
Luke 20:36-38
King James Version (KJV)
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 14 2011,12:54) Are you serious? Do you really think that the bible depicts Jacob as the servant of Esau?
1 Chronicles 18
12 Abishai son of Zeruiah struck down eighteen thousand Edomites in the Valley of Salt. 13 He put garrisons in Edom, and all the Edomites became subject to David.Asana, Esau IS Edom. And Jacob IS Israel. God made a greater nation out of Jacob than He did out of Esau, and the latter ended up serving the former.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
