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Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,16:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,19:17) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2011,17:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical
BodIs that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it,
And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ?
Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect
He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ?Pierre
I'm not sure what you are saying here but obviously the best comparison to Muhammad would be Moses as Moses lived a violent life and had multiple wives like Muhammad
BodMoses as I know did nothing for himself,he never rape any women,he fulfill God will ,for the nation of Israel ,based on a 430 year promis ,
Muhammad ,came on his personal ego,and built his new views on the roman judeo-Christian. Religion and discipline ,
To achieving this he did the wors atrocities a man can do for personal gain,
This is not the case of Moses,so wrong comparable person,
Pierre
How could you possibly know if Muhammad raped anyone? We do know that both Moses and Muhammad went to war the bible says this about MosesExodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,22:58) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 12 2011,11:18) Bod, it is this that you do not believe and hence why you are not a believer. God didn't want to sacrifice his son, no Father would.
But he did it anyway because he knew first and foremost that he could raise him from the dead, and in doing so, he could take all those that believe with him.
T8 how are you calling murder “Sacrifice”? And how is God powerless that he must commit sacrifice when HE stated that He never wanted, commanded or needed sacrifice?Jeremiah 7:22
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:The funny thing is T8 you say that God had always planned to SACRIFICE HIS SON if so that would of course mean that HE wanted to remember it's His will that shall be done right?
If you are going to believe what you say you should take it to its logical conclusion that you believe that God planned the torture and murder of His only begotten son from the beginning because HE had to? so that those who believe would be saved. That is EXACTLY what you believe although it is not what Jesus taught.
I believe that God did not PLAN the torture and crucifixion of His Son any more then he planned to destroy people with the flood.
Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.any more then he planned to destroy people of nineveh
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
You do not believe that God is PROACTIVE but what did God say even from the beginning?
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?…….The fact is the Children of Israel Plotted to KILL the MESSIAH not Sacrifice Him to God for the atonement of sin Jesus didn't CRY and SWEAT because of some eternal plan if so you are calling Jesus weak and God weak and in both cases you are WRONG
You say that God could not save Jesus from the cross or save people if Jesus never was on the cross the SCRIPTURE SAYS:
Isaiah 59:1
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:T8 TODAY you should believe
BodSee put this way,you give value to Muhammad I do not he is a murderer,to say the least I and many others have shown you that,and no one can change that so it is you who change what you heard about him ,
For Christ this is not the case,because he his the son of God I mean the true God. Of Abraham,this is not the same as Halla what only means god,and so is worshiped as one by men but all is ways of worship are men made rules or copied from the bible,
This is only to try to make him kind of legitime ,this wii never be,may be to the blind in truth,
Pierre
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,23:23) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,16:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,19:17) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2011,17:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical
BodIs that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it,
And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ?
Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect
He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ?Pierre
I'm not sure what you are saying here but obviously the best comparison to Muhammad would be Moses as Moses lived a violent life and had multiple wives like Muhammad
BodMoses as I know did nothing for himself,he never rape any women,he fulfill God will ,for the nation of Israel ,based on a 430 year promis ,
Muhammad ,came on his personal ego,and built his new views on the roman judeo-Christian. Religion and discipline ,
To achieving this he did the wors atrocities a man can do for personal gain,
This is not the case of Moses,so wrong comparable person,
Pierre
How could you possibly know if Muhammad raped anyone? We do know that both Moses and Muhammad went to war the bible says this about MosesExodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
BodYou refuse to recognize history as a true reality,if you want I can bring the documents here to show all again,but I showed you in another topic,but your brain should remember this no ?
Or did you become a blind muslim,or we're you blind
wen you enter the Muslim faith?Sorry for the raw questions but this is my way as I see it ,not to offend you,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,16:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,22:58) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 12 2011,11:18) Bod, it is this that you do not believe and hence why you are not a believer. God didn't want to sacrifice his son, no Father would.
But he did it anyway because he knew first and foremost that he could raise him from the dead, and in doing so, he could take all those that believe with him.
T8 how are you calling murder “Sacrifice”? And how is God powerless that he must commit sacrifice when HE stated that He never wanted, commanded or needed sacrifice?Jeremiah 7:22
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:The funny thing is T8 you say that God had always planned to SACRIFICE HIS SON if so that would of course mean that HE wanted to remember it's His will that shall be done right?
If you are going to believe what you say you should take it to its logical conclusion that you believe that God planned the torture and murder of His only begotten son from the beginning because HE had to? so that those who believe would be saved. That is EXACTLY what you believe although it is not what Jesus taught.
I believe that God did not PLAN the torture and crucifixion of His Son any more then he planned to destroy people with the flood.
Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.any more then he planned to destroy people of nineveh
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
You do not believe that God is PROACTIVE but what did God say even from the beginning?
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?…….The fact is the Children of Israel Plotted to KILL the MESSIAH not Sacrifice Him to God for the atonement of sin Jesus didn't CRY and SWEAT because of some eternal plan if so you are calling Jesus weak and God weak and in both cases you are WRONG
You say that God could not save Jesus from the cross or save people if Jesus never was on the cross the SCRIPTURE SAYS:
Isaiah 59:1
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:T8 TODAY you should believe
BodSee put this way,you give value to Muhammad I do not he is a murderer,to say the least I and many others have shown you that,and no one can change that so it is you who change what you heard about him ,
For Christ this is not the case,because he his the son of God I mean the true God. Of Abraham,this is not the same as Halla what only means god,and so is worshiped as one by men but all is ways of worship are men made rules or copied from the bible,
This is only to try to make him kind of legitime ,this wii never be,may be to the blind in truth,
Pierre
We are not even discussing Muhammad but if you do you have to speculate you will not find what you are saying in the Quran at all.Muhammad and Moses both killed/ or ordered the killing of others in battle if you do not know this you should read all about Moses and by the way if you say the Quran was copied from the bible then how then would that be wrong?
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,16:36) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,23:23) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,16:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,19:17) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2011,17:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical
BodIs that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it,
And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ?
Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect
He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ?Pierre
I'm not sure what you are saying here but obviously the best comparison to Muhammad would be Moses as Moses lived a violent life and had multiple wives like Muhammad
BodMoses as I know did nothing for himself,he never rape any women,he fulfill God will ,for the nation of Israel ,based on a 430 year promis ,
Muhammad ,came on his personal ego,and built his new views on the roman judeo-Christian. Religion and discipline ,
To achieving this he did the wors atrocities a man can do for personal gain,
This is not the case of Moses,so wrong comparable person,
Pierre
How could you possibly know if Muhammad raped anyone? We do know that both Moses and Muhammad went to war the bible says this about MosesExodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
BodYou refuse to recognize history as a true reality,if you want I can bring the documents here to show all again,but I showed you in another topic,but your brain should remember this no ?
Or did you become a blind muslim,or we're you blind
wen you enter the Muslim faith?Sorry for the raw questions but this is my way as I see it ,not to offend you,
Pierre
Show me whatever you want but show me from the Quran anything else to me is heresayQuote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,05:21) Hi Shimmer 
It wasn't that I was ignoring you I just didn't have a reply for some of the posts you had written it was more like “no comment” We have already established our lasting friendship for I believe a couple of years now and of course nothing has changed. Yes the God of Islam is the same God of the Bible besides that there is no other god but GOD.
If someone says I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Jesus…etc. What other God could that possibly be?
Thanks Bod=)bod
Quote Yes the God of Islam is the same God of the Bible besides that there is no other god but GOD. this is impossible ;their are many false gods and many pretend gods ,anything that we see or not see can become a god if this we worship,
the difference is to whom goes the worship and how is that God requesting to be worshiped ,
and under no circumstances his the god of Islam the same God than the Israelites and Christians ,is their two worshiping ? yes ,are they in opposition to each other ? yes,
this means two different godsPierre
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) I'm not making a blanket claim I am simply asserting that a revelation would reveal something that was previously unknown whether it's believed or not has to do with someones faith i.e. The faith to believe it or the faith not to believe it.
So our difference is that you have faith in a revelation that contradicts clear scriptural words, and I don't?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) …..but the claim would only be reasonable as a Christian if previous scriptures have some sort of corresponding clarity or guidance to reasonably come to such a conclusion.
And if the claim totally and blatantly CONTRADICTS many clear scriptures, then what? Scripture is clear that Jesus DIED as a ransom sacrifice, to atone for the sins of mankind. In fact, it is the entire theme of the NT. This revelation, in which you believe, contradicts the entire theme of the NT, Asana.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) Now how unreasonable would it be for me to believe that God saved Jesus from the cross When he saved Noah from the flood
Saved Job from Satan
Saved Jonah from certain death
Saved Isaac son of Abraham from being sacrificed
Saved lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Saved david from Goliath
And so on and on
How many of these sons of God eventually died, Asana? If they all died, then why do you think Jesus couldn't have?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) This is what God says about Sacrificing your children Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Actually, every single Hebrew child was to be sacrificed to God. But God allowed the sacrifice of a lamb in place of the child itself. For poor families, like Jesus', two doves were to be offered up in place of the child.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) Jeremiah 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Remember I told you I was in Jeremiah right now? I just read that last week, and it baffles me. Perhaps this is worth a thread of its own. How did Moses come up with all those rules of sacrifice, if not directed by God? Did Moses make these rules up himself?Anyway, this is for a different thread, I believe.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,21:46) bod Quote Yes the God of Islam is the same God of the Bible besides that there is no other god but GOD. this is impossible ;their are many false gods and many pretend gods ,anything that we see or not see can become a god if this we worship,
the difference is to whom goes the worship and how is that God requesting to be worshiped ,
and under no circumstances his the god of Islam the same God than the Israelites and Christians ,is their two worshiping ? yes ,are they in opposition to each other ? yes,
this means two different godsPierre
So you believe that Christians and Jews have 2 different gods? They are also in opposition to each other.Jews do not accept Jesus in anyway other than calling him a false prophet
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,04:26) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) I'm not making a blanket claim I am simply asserting that a revelation would reveal something that was previously unknown whether it's believed or not has to do with someones faith i.e. The faith to believe it or the faith not to believe it.
So our difference is that you have faith in a revelation that contradicts clear scriptural words, and I don't?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) …..but the claim would only be reasonable as a Christian if previous scriptures have some sort of corresponding clarity or guidance to reasonably come to such a conclusion.
And if the claim totally and blatantly CONTRADICTS many clear scriptures, then what? Scripture is clear that Jesus DIED as a ransom sacrifice, to atone for the sins of mankind. In fact, it is the entire theme of the NT. This revelation, in which you believe, contradicts the entire theme of the NT, Asana.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) Now how unreasonable would it be for me to believe that God saved Jesus from the cross When he saved Noah from the flood
Saved Job from Satan
Saved Jonah from certain death
Saved Isaac son of Abraham from being sacrificed
Saved lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Saved david from Goliath
And so on and on
How many of these sons of God eventually died, Asana? If they all died, then why do you think Jesus couldn't have?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) This is what God says about Sacrificing your children Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Actually, every single Hebrew child was to be sacrificed to God. But God allowed the sacrifice of a lamb in place of the child itself. For poor families, like Jesus', two doves were to be offered up in place of the child.Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,16:13) Jeremiah 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Remember I told you I was in Jeremiah right now? I just read that last week, and it baffles me. Perhaps this is worth a thread of its own. How did Moses come up with all those rules of sacrifice, if not directed by God? Did Moses make these rules up himself?Anyway, this is for a different thread, I believe.
Mike You wrote
Quote Actually, every single Hebrew child was to be sacrificed to God. But God allowed the sacrifice of a lamb in place of the child itself. For poor families, like Jesus', two doves were to be offered up in place of the child. Now once again see what God says:
Numbers 18:15
Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.If Jesus is God's only begotten son he could not be sacrificed he has to be redeemed.
“All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.”
Exodus 34:20
How is it you believe that God sacrificed what he forbid others to Sacrifice?
Actually Bodhitharta, the bible clearly shows God arranging for, and accepting, a human sacrifice.
Judges 11:29-31:
Quote Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh, and passed through Mizpah of Gilead; and from Mizpah of Gilead he advanced toward the people of Ammon. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, 'If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.' Note two things here. First, the “Spirit of the LORD” is on Jephthah. Second, Jephthah is vowing to make a burnt offering out of whomever greets him first if – and only if – God gives him victory in battle. This latter issue gives God a direct role in this story.
Judges 11:32-33:
Quote So Jephthah advanced toward the people of Ammon to fight against them, and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he defeated them from Aroer as far as Minnith—twenty cities—and to Abel Keramim, with a very great slaughter. Thus the people of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. In short, God comes through on His part of the vow.
Judges 11:34,39:
Quote When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. …and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. She knew no man. I skipped some verses, which include his reaction and her reaction, but this is how the story ends. Jephthah keeps his vow. He offers his daughter up as a burnt offering to God.
The passage makes it clear that this was a conditional vow. God did not have to answer it. Furthermore, God could have made it so that a chicken came out of the house to meet Jephthah when he got home. Instead, God allowed Jephthah's daughter to be first.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 13 2011,13:35) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2011,21:46) bod Quote Yes the God of Islam is the same God of the Bible besides that there is no other god but GOD. this is impossible ;their are many false gods and many pretend gods ,anything that we see or not see can become a god if this we worship,
the difference is to whom goes the worship and how is that God requesting to be worshiped ,
and under no circumstances his the god of Islam the same God than the Israelites and Christians ,is their two worshiping ? yes ,are they in opposition to each other ? yes,
this means two different godsPierre
So you believe that Christians and Jews have 2 different gods? They are also in opposition to each other.Jews do not accept Jesus in anyway other than calling him a false prophet
bodI was talking about there God they worshiped and they know who he is ,but Islam is a made up religion by a man called Muhammad,and he called his god Allah,but this is not the name of the God of the Hebrews and the nation of Israel,his name is Jehovah ,their s is only one like him ,
on the other hand Allah stands for god =all of them or none
so if we look at the request of worship the Koran is at best a book of abstracts out of the scriptures but so spelled that there could be no confusion as to that Allah is NOT Jehovah
and so is and will be in opposition for the truth this is a battle that Jehovah can win ,
scriptures says that their is no room for any other God but Jehovah the creator,
so Allah as to go.
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,07:48) Actually Bodhitharta, the bible clearly shows God arranging for, and accepting, a human sacrifice. Judges 11:29-31:
Quote Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh, and passed through Mizpah of Gilead; and from Mizpah of Gilead he advanced toward the people of Ammon. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, 'If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.' Note two things here. First, the “Spirit of the LORD” is on Jephthah. Second, Jephthah is vowing to make a burnt offering out of whomever greets him first if – and only if – God gives him victory in battle. This latter issue gives God a direct role in this story.
Judges 11:32-33:
Quote So Jephthah advanced toward the people of Ammon to fight against them, and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he defeated them from Aroer as far as Minnith—twenty cities—and to Abel Keramim, with a very great slaughter. Thus the people of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. In short, God comes through on His part of the vow.
Judges 11:34,39:
Quote When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. …and he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. She knew no man. I skipped some verses, which include his reaction and her reaction, but this is how the story ends. Jephthah keeps his vow. He offers his daughter up as a burnt offering to God.
The passage makes it clear that this was a conditional vow. God did not have to answer it. Furthermore, God could have made it so that a chicken came out of the house to meet Jephthah when he got home. Instead, God allowed Jephthah's daughter to be first.
God did not ask, command or condone what he did, he didn't even understand what he had done35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
He should not have sworn at all:
Matthew 5:33-35
King James Version (KJV)
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,13:43) How is it you believe that God sacrificed what he forbid others to Sacrifice?
Are you serious, Asana? I believe it because the whole of the NT teaches it – that's why.All firstborns were to belong to God. God made provision for the Israelites to redeem firstborn children through a lamb or doves. I could not tell you why God did not swap out Jesus for a lamb or doves. I don't know the answer to that.
But I also don't know why God did many things. I don't know why He caused the Egyptians to give their belongings to the Israelites on their way out. Surely God could have provided for all their needs without the use of the Egyptians' property.
But I can't just go around saying that it didn't happen, just because I don't know why it did.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.I am part of that “we”. Apparently, you are not.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2011,11:39) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 12 2011,13:43) How is it you believe that God sacrificed what he forbid others to Sacrifice?
Are you serious, Asana? I believe it because the whole of the NT teaches it – that's why.All firstborns were to belong to God. God made provision for the Israelites to redeem firstborn children through a lamb or doves. I could not tell you why God did not swap out Jesus for a lamb or doves. I don't know the answer to that.
But I also don't know why God did many things. I don't know why He caused the Egyptians to give their belongings to the Israelites on their way out. Surely God could have provided for all their needs without the use of the Egyptians' property.
But I can't just go around saying that it didn't happen, just because I don't know why it did.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.I am part of that “we”. Apparently, you are not.
It's okay to “believe” something the Jews also “believe” That Jesus was a false prophet, they did not believe when Christ came although they were waiting for him to come but the Jews were not expecting a Messiah that would be crucified and the scriptures in which the NT is founded on which is the OT does not explicitly teach this idea either.The point is God said the Firstborn MUST be REDEEMED but you are saying except for Jesus
I have shown you that the scapegoat in which all the sins of Israel was placed upon was not killed but presented Alive before Jehovah and set free and you are saying
Except Jesus
I have shown you the Scapegoat is for atonement of sin and is not sacrificed or killed
Leviticus 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.There is also evidence of the authorities willing to let him go
Luke 23:22
And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.There is also of evidence of Jesus in some form of disguise
John 20:15
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.Also why would Mary be looking to take a dead body and how would she take it away anyway plus it is forbidden to even touch a dead body in Jewish culture so perhaps she found what she was looking for “A Living breathing Jesus”
Jesus said that that generation was so wicked that THE ONLY SIGN he would give them was the sign of JONAH
Matthew 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.At what point was Jonah dead? He could have given the sign of Lazarus who was dead and raised back to life but the sign of Jonah is a LIVING SIGN but those on the boat with Jonah saw him drown, they thought he had died they through him over as a sacrifice. Plus why do you think Jesus would say this?
Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.Acts 28:26
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not.
( سورة النمل , An-Naml, Chapter #27, Verse #50)That they said (in boast), “We killed christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)bodhitharta wrote:
Quote God did not ask, command or condone what he did, he didn't even understand what he had done Did you miss the part where God answered his prayer?
Command? No.
Condone? Exactly who was in control of the situation?
Yes, this was an “act of God”.
The point is that God could have made anything come out the door first, but he wanted Jeptha's daughter.
Why do Gods always seem to want virgin girls for sacrifices?
Is the aroma of a burning virgin more pleasing to God?Tim
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 13 2011,15:49) bodhitharta wrote: Quote God did not ask, command or condone what he did, he didn't even understand what he had done Did you miss the part where God answered his prayer?
Command? No.
Condone? Exactly who was in control of the situation?
Yes, this was an “act of God”.
Your logic is ridiculous the point was he shouldn't have made such an oath, God didn't make the oath and God did not ask him to keep his oath either.God didn't answer his prayer for him God answered his prayer for the Israelites to defeat Ammon by your logic Edom gave up his birthright to Jacob by God's design or the people of the flood did so because God “was in control of the situation”
The fact is God gave man dominion and the decisions of men affect them acccordingly.
The man burning his daughter was not an act of God it was an act of a man fulfilling an unneeded promise to God.
It's like someone sick after a night out of drinking and they say God please just don't let me die if you let me live I will never drink again, wll if the person was going to live anyway he just spoke in haste which is why most who do that continue drinking
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 13 2011,20:44) The point is that God could have made anything come out the door first, but he wanted Jeptha's daughter.
Why do Gods always seem to want virgin girls for sacrifices?
Is the aroma of a burning virgin more pleasing to God?Tim
God did not want the mans daughter and no where is that written, it was his only child so of course she would be likely to come out to greet her father. God did not make the oath or command nor does it say that God was pleased with what the guy did. The fact is he made an oath and kept his oath but Jesus says that is not what anyone should do because they don't have the knowledge of the will of God.That is why you never hear Muslims saying “I swear” instead that say “God willing”
Matthew 5
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote God didn't answer his prayer for him God answered his prayer for the Israelites to defeat Ammon by your logic Edom gave up his birthright to Jacob by God's design or the people of the flood did so because God “was in control of the situation” Have you not read the bible?
Genesis 25:23:
Quote And the LORD said to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger.”Your freewill defense just fell through the thin ice that it was skating on.
Additionally, if God found this act so abhorrent, as you have claimed, why did he give Jepthah additional victories and allow him to continue “judging” Israel for six more years, (Judges 12:1-7)? Are you telling me that the God who called for the death of a man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath, (Numbers 15:32-36), was too timid to make an example of a man who practiced human sacrifice?
Get off the pond, bodhitharta! The ice under your feet is way too thin.
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