Reason and Religion

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2011,15:08)

Agreement is good, especially when those agreeing are in agreement about what the scriptures actually teach.   So, where do you as a Muslim fall away from my beliefs?  If you believe in only one God, Jehovah, and His “uniquely brought forth” Son, who had glory alongside his God before all things were created through him, then where is our disagreement? (I truly don't know where the Muslim faith differs from mine.)

I don't know if we have any disagreement because the way you are viewing these matters are very clear and responsible whereas the Quran was brought forth because in that day confusion reigned Jesus was being called God, Mary was often worshipped and there were many trinitarian ideas some including Jesus and Mary as gods along side God believe me words do really matter if you say to a child that God has a son and Jesus has a Mother but Jesus is God it would be logical for that child to call Mary the Mother of God

If you say that God begat a son with a woman it would only be logical for a child to assume that act would be the same that his own mother and father did to conceive him.

The Quran makes clear that Jesus is the son of Mary something that the Bible hardly ever states and Mary was blessed by God with a Miracle in which Jesus was brought forth from God through her.

The reason why it is so crucial to be clear is this:

Genesis 6:4

King James Version (KJV)

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

We cannot accuse God of the same thing that the angels took part in.

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran . In Christianity  if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today, Pierre Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical

Bod

Is that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it,

And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ?
Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect
He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Asana,

Since I don't believe Jesus is God Almighty, or that Mary is the “Mother of God”; and I do recognize that God Himself never mated with any human woman, then I really don't have a need for the Quran, right?

If Muslims believe the same things as I do, (as it seems you do), then why are Christians and Muslims at odds?

Can anyone tell me of a specific Muslim belief that CONTRADICTS scripture?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2011,17:23)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran . In Christianity  if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today, Pierre Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical Bod Is that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it, And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ? Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ? Pierre

I'm not sure what you are saying here but obviously the best comparison to Muhammad would be Moses as Moses lived a violent life and had multiple wives like Muhammad

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2011,04:35)

Hi Asana, Since I don't believe Jesus is God Almighty, or that Mary is the “Mother of God”; and I do recognize that God Himself never mated with any human woman, then I really don't have a need for the Quran, right? If Muslims believe the same things as I do, (as it seems you do), then why are Christians and Muslims at odds? Can anyone tell me of a specific Muslim belief that CONTRADICTS scripture?

Yes the biggest difference is this revelation from the Quran:

That they said (in boast), “We killed christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

[shimmer]

Bod, if you could stop ignoring me, please, I would really like to know – Is the God of Islam the same God of the Bible? Because I USED to believe it was, remember? But then I changed my view – after I really looked into it. So can you convince me somehow that it is the same?

[Ed J]

Hi Kar,

(see Galatians 1:8 and 2Corinthians 11:14-15)
It would be more accurate to say that this particular
'system of religion'  has fraudulently represented YHVH.
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

B'shem
YHVH

[shimmer]

Hi Ed. So you could say the problem is Religion right? True Religion is from God and not some man made institution.

[shimmer]

Actually Bod, no need to reply yet. I don't think I'll have a Computer for a while, it need's to get fixed. I'll get back to it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,19:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2011,04:35) Can anyone tell me of a specific Muslim belief that CONTRADICTS scripture? Yes the biggest difference is this revelation from the Quran: That they said (in boast), “We killed christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

Okay. It is crystal clear to me that what the Quran says about the death (non-death) of Jesus directly contradicts Romans 6:9-10, not to mention a boat-load of other scriptures.

How do you explain this contradiction, Asana?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 11 2011,15:35)

Bod, if you could stop ignoring me, please, I would really like to know – Is the God of Islam the same God of the Bible? Because I USED to believe it was, remember? But then I changed my view – after I really looked into it. So can you convince me somehow that it is the same?

Hi Shimmer

It wasn't that I was ignoring you I just didn't have a reply for some of the posts you had written it was more like “no comment” We have already established our lasting friendship for I believe a couple of years now and of course nothing has changed. Yes the God of Islam is the same God of the Bible besides that there is no other god but GOD.

If someone says I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Jesus…etc. What other God could that possibly be?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 11 2011,16:16)

Hi Kar, (see Galatians 1:8 and 2Corinthians 11:14-15) It would be more accurate to say that this particular 'system of religion'  has fraudulently represented YHVH. The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate… distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit. B'shem YHVH

That's odd Ed because that is what Judaism accuses Christians of so are Christians misrepresenting YHVH?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2011,02:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,19:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2011,04:35) Can anyone tell me of a specific Muslim belief that CONTRADICTS scripture? Yes the biggest difference is this revelation from the Quran: That they said (in boast), “We killed christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-   (  سورة النساء  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157) Okay.  It is crystal clear to me that what the Quran says about the death (non-death) of Jesus directly contradicts Romans 6:9-10, not to mention a boat-load of other scriptures.   How do you explain this contradiction, Asana?

I don't consider it a contradiction I consider it a revelation and I find the Bible supports this revelation even Jesus says:

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:11-13

If all things were revealed in the Bible then what could Jesus possibly have to say that you would not be able to bear? Also in revelations it says

Revelation 10

4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

This is a prophesy about a book being written outside of the scope of the bible written during final days and it is a book a about a last revelation and a prophet who would be called the seal of the prophets but what would make your belly bitter but to hear somethings that upset you? What could you not bear? Most Christians need Jesus to have been killed or Crucified because they believe that their salvation hinges on his death and not his life but Jesus made it clear that his mission was completed well before they were coming to kill him

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

What? How could Jesus have finished the work before the cross when most Christians declare his work was to die on that cross but Jesus says no his mission was to Glorify God on earth and that was the work God gave him to do.

John 17:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He doesn't say Eternal life is him dying on the cross for your sins he says clearly that Eternal life is to Know the ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom he sent and then he is asking God to return to his former glory, not let me be tortured and killed before I return but I am finished and I want to return the Quran says that is exactly what happened.

54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

(7) Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #55)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01)

I don't consider it a contradiction I consider it a revelation and I find the Bible supports this revelation even Jesus says: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:11-13

Hi Asana,

I've heard some compelling arguments from you, but this is not one of them.  With this reasoning, I could claim anything I want, even if it contadicts the scriptures, and then say, “I'm right, because I'm speaking of one of the things they couldn't bear to hear in Jesus' days on earth”.

I could claim that God consists of 1000 different beings, and that scripture doesn't speak of it because the original disciples couldn't bear to hear it at that time.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01)

…..it is a book a about a last revelation and a prophet who would be called the seal of the prophets…….

I'm not reading anything in that verse that speaks of a PROPHET called “the Seal of the Prophets”.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01)

How could Jesus have finished the work before the cross when most Christians declare his work was to die on that cross……..

Jesus had finished the work HE had come to do.  Him being crucified by others could not be considered as work he himself did.

Nor did the work of Jesus stop at his death.  He continues to complete works for his God to this very day.

Asana, scripture CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY speaks of the death of Jesus, and the reason he came to DIE.  God could not have SACRIFICED His only begotten Son as an atonement for our sins unless Jesus actually DIED.  (How many lambs were SACRIFICED as atonement for Israels' sins without actually DYING?)

It seems you and your Quran are attempting to re-write the scriptures.

[Stu]

So what if Jesus had not been crucified? Was that it? He had nothing more to do? Shame the Playstation hadn't been invented yet?

This is all very shabby thinking regarding what is in any case a fantasy version of history. Only the gullible would believe that the gospels can claim to report verbatim what Jesus said. They aren't even convincing on his existence, let alone his words.

Stuart

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2011,05:54)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01) I don't consider it a contradiction I consider it a revelation and I find the Bible supports this revelation even Jesus says: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:11-13 Hi Asana, I've heard some compelling arguments from you, but this is not one of them.  With this reasoning, I could claim anything I want, even if it contadicts the scriptures, and then say, “I'm right, because I'm speaking of one of the things they couldn't bear to hear in Jesus' days on earth”. I could claim that God consists of 1000 different beings, and that scripture doesn't speak of it because the original disciples couldn't bear to hear it at that time. Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01) …..it is a book a about a last revelation and a prophet who would be called the seal of the prophets……. I'm not reading anything in that verse that speaks of a PROPHET called “the Seal of the Prophets”. Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,11:01) How could Jesus have finished the work before the cross when most Christians declare his work was to die on that cross…….. Jesus had finished the work HE had come to do.  Him being crucified by others could not be considered as work he himself did. Nor did the work of Jesus stop at his death.  He continues to complete works for his God to this very day. Asana, scripture CLEARLY and DISTINCTLY speaks of the death of Jesus, and the reason he came to DIE.  God could not have SACRIFICED His only begotten Son as an atonement for our sins unless Jesus actually DIED.  (How many lambs were SACRIFICED as atonement for Israels' sins without actually DYING?) It seems you and your Quran are attempting to re-write the scriptures.

Hi Mike

I am pleased at your response because it is honest and it's something we can really dig into.

Quote

I could claim anything I want, even if it contadicts the scriptures, and then say, “I'm right, because I'm speaking of one of the things they couldn't bear to hear in Jesus' days on earth”.

True you could but I'm not making a blanket claim I am simply asserting that a revelation would reveal something that was previously unknown whether it's believed or not has to do with someones faith i.e. The faith to believe it or the faith not to believe it.

Quote

I could claim that God consists of 1000 different beings, and that scripture doesn't speak of it because the original disciples couldn't bear to hear it at that time.

Once again I agree totally but the claim would only be reasonable as a Christian if previous scriptures have some sort of corresponding clarity or guidance to reasonably come to such a conclusion. The Bible insists that God is One and there is none other besides Him so it would be reasonable to doubt that God consisted of even a trinity or a Duality of any sort.

Now how unreasonable would it be for me to believe that God saved Jesus from the cross

When he saved Noah from the flood
Saved Job from Satan
Saved Jonah from certain death
Saved Isaac son of Abraham from being sacrificed
Saved lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Saved david from Goliath
And so on and on

This is what God says about Sacrificing your children

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

So do you think God thinks it's okay to sacrifice His “own son” when he said that this type of Abomination never came to his mind?

Do you even understand that God never even wanted Sacrifice at all?

Jeremiah 7:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

The most important thing of all is understanding that Jesus being on the cross would have been a torturous Slaughter unacceptable to God it would have been MURDER

But look what it says about the Carrying of sins for atonement:

Leviticus 16:21
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Leviticus 16:10

King James Version (KJV)

10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness

[Proclaimer]

Bod, it is this that you do not believe and hence why you are not a believer.

God didn't want to sacrifice his son, no Father would.

But he did it anyway because he knew first and foremost that he could raise him from the dead, and in doing so, he could take all those that believe with him.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 12 2011,11:18)

Bod, it is this that you do not believe and hence why you are not a believer. God didn't want to sacrifice his son, no Father would. But he did it anyway because he knew first and foremost that he could raise him from the dead, and in doing so, he could take all those that believe with him.

T8 how are you calling murder “Sacrifice”? And how is God powerless that he must commit sacrifice when HE stated that He never wanted, commanded or needed sacrifice?

Jeremiah 7:22
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

The funny thing is T8 you say that God had always planned to SACRIFICE HIS SON if so that would of course mean that HE wanted to remember it's His will that shall be done right?

If you are going to believe what you say you should take it to its logical conclusion that you believe that God planned the torture and murder of His only begotten son from the beginning because HE had to? so that those who believe would be saved. That is EXACTLY what you believe although it is not what Jesus taught.

I believe that God did not PLAN the torture and crucifixion of His Son any more then he planned to destroy people with the flood.

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

any more then he planned to destroy people of nineveh

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

You do not believe that God is PROACTIVE but what did God say even from the beginning?

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?…….

The fact is the Children of Israel Plotted to KILL the MESSIAH not Sacrifice Him to God for the atonement of sin Jesus didn't CRY and SWEAT because of some eternal plan if so you are calling Jesus weak and God weak and in both cases you are WRONG

You say that God could not save Jesus from the cross or save people if Jesus never was on the cross the SCRIPTURE SAYS:

Isaiah 59:1
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

T8 TODAY you should believe

[terraricca]

Quote (Stu @ Dec. 12 2011,13:16)

So what if Jesus had not been crucified?  Was that it?  He had nothing more to do?  Shame the Playstation hadn't been invented yet? This is all very shabby thinking regarding what is in any case a fantasy version of history.  Only the gullible would believe that the gospels can claim to report verbatim what Jesus said.  They aren't even convincing on his existence, let alone his words. Stuart

Stu

If the record of what we have said and done is shown trough the years after we are gone ,and even during our short lives then I would say that Christ alone out run us all,

And consider he only work at this for 3 1/2years what would have happen if he would have work at it for 40 years ?

Stu ,you and I are on the exreams. You as unbeliever and I as a believer

The ugly difference between us is a no and a yes ,but we both always end up in one big ,???

So sins we know this on both side all becomes more or less irrelevant ,

But we keep talking to each other because we hope that for some reason we can or could change the other,

Pierre.

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 11 2011,19:17)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2011,17:23) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,11:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran . In Christianity  if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today, Pierre Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical Bod Is that the truth ? The next quote of chimmer,shows otherwise written in the Koran and the extensions of it, And what the confusion of the roman church as to do for the Muslim religion to come to live ? Did not the foundation that muhammad took was crime ,war,murder,ect He was not like Christ,and what god did Muhammad create or followed ? Pierre I'm not sure what you are saying here but obviously the best comparison to Muhammad would be Moses as Moses lived a violent life and had multiple wives like Muhammad

Bod

Moses as I know did nothing for himself,he never rape any women,he fulfill God will ,for the nation of Israel ,based on a 430 year promis ,

Muhammad ,came on his personal ego,and built his new views on the roman judeo-Christian. Religion and discipline ,

To achieving this he did the wors atrocities a man can do for personal gain,

This is not the case of Moses,so wrong comparable person,

Pierre

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