Question of Parousia of Jesus – how Christianity manage the dilemma?

[gadam123]

For Keras….

[keras]

These passages and many others like them tell us that a significant eschatological event was to occur in the lifetime of those who heard and read the prophecies.   Quote Gadam

No; it doesn’t.  Because no significant eschatological event did occur in the first century.  The conquest of Judah by Rome in 70 AD was only the fulfilment of Luke 21:20-24  We still await Luke 21:25-28.

Which will be the terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.  Triggered by an attack upon Israel by an Islamic confederation, as described in Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12

The result of the Lord’s response, will be the virtual depopulation of the entire ME region.  Hosea 4:3, +

 

[gadam123]

Unfulfilled Christian religious predictions

This article lists unfulfilled Christian religious predictions that failed to come about in the specified time frame, listed by religious group.

1. Adventism, Millerism:
   Adventism has its roots in the teachings of a Baptist preacher by the name of William Miller. He first predicted the Second Advent of Jesus Christ would occur before March 21, 1844. When this date passed a new date was predicted, April 18, 1844. Again the date passed and another Millerite, Samuel S. Snow, derived the date of October 22, 1844. The non-fulfillment of these predictions has been named the Millerite Great Disappointment.
2. Anabaptist Church:
   Certain Anabaptists of the early 16th century believed that the Millennium would occur in 1533. Another source reports: “When the prophecy failed, the Anabaptists became more zealous and claimed that two witnesses (Enoch and Elijah) had come in the form of Jan Matthys and Jan Bockelson; they would set up the New Jerusalem in Münster. Münster became a frightening dictatorship under Bockelson’s control. Although all Lutherans and Catholics were expelled from that city, the millennium never came.
3. Anglican Church:
   In volume II of The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, author Leroy Edwin Froom writes about a prominent Anglican prelate, who made a relevant prediction: “Edwin Sandys (1519–1588), Archbishop of York and Primate of England was born in Lancashire… Sandys says, ‘Now, as we know not the day and time, so let us be assured that this coming of the Lord is near. He is not slack, as we do count slackness. That it is at hand, it may be probably gathered out of the Scriptures in diverse places. The signs mentioned by Christ in the Gospel which should be the foreshewers of this terrible day, are almost all fulfilled.
4. Assemblies of God Church:
   During World War I, The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction: “We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon…The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced.” Other editions speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 or 1935.
5. Calvary Chapel:
   The founder of the Calvary Chapel system, Chuck Smith, published the book End Times in 1979. On the jacket of his book, Smith is called a “well known Bible scholar and prophecy teacher.” In this book he wrote:As we look at the world scene today, it would appear that the coming of the Lord is very, very, close. Yet, we do not know when it will be. It could be that the Lord will wait for a time longer. If I understand Scripture correctly, Jesus taught us that the generation which sees the ‘budding of the fig tree’, the birth of the nation Israel, will be the generation that sees the Lord’s return; I believe that the generation of 1948 is the last generation. Since a generation of judgment is forty years and the tribulation lasts seven years, I believe the Lord could come back for his church anytime before the tribulation starts, which would mean anytime before 1981. (1948 + 40 − 7 = 1981) However, it is possible that Jesus is dating the beginning of the generation from 1967, when Jerusalem was again under Israeli control for the first time since 587 BC. We don’t know for sure which year actually marks the beginning of the last generation.
   This same viewpoint was published by the popular pastor Hal Lindsey in his widely published book The Late Great Planet Earth.
6. Edward Irving:
   The Scottish cleric Edward Irving was the forerunner of the Catholic Apostolic Church. In 1828 he wrote a work headed The Last Days: A Discourse on the Evil Character of These Our Times, Proving Them to be the ‘Perilous Times’ and the ‘Last Days’. He believed that the world had already entered the “last days”I conclude, therefore, that the last days… will begin to run from the time of God’s appearing for his ancient people, and gathering them together to the work of destroying all Antichristian nations, of evangelising the world, and of governing it during the Millennium… The times and fullness of the times, so often mentioned in the New Testament, I consider as referring to the great period numbered by times…Now if this reasoning be correct, as there can be little doubt that the one thousand two hundred and sixty days concluded in the year 1792, and the thirty additional days in the year 1823, we are already entered upon the last days, and the ordinary life of a man will carry many of us to the end of them. If this be so, it gives to the subject with which we have introduced this year’s ministry a very great importance indeed.
7. Jehovah’s Witnesses:
   Charles Taze Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Society, calculated 1874 as the year of Christ’s Second Coming, and taught that Christ was invisibly present and ruling from the heavens since that year. Russell proclaimed Christ’s invisible return in 1874, the resurrection of the saints in 1875, and predicted the end of the “harvest” and the Rapture of the saints to heaven for 1878, and the final end of “the day of wrath” in 1914. 1874 was considered the end of 6,000 years of human history and the beginning of judgment by Christ. A 1917 Watch Tower Society publication predicted that in 1918, God would begin to destroy churches and millions of their members.J.F. Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president of the Watch Tower Society, predicted that the Millennium would begin in 1925, and that biblical figures such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David would be resurrected as “princes”. The Watch Tower Society bought property and built a house, Beth Sarim, in California for their return.

   From 1966, statements in Jehovah’s Witness publications raised strong expectations that Armageddon could arrive in 1975. In 1974 Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to “finish out the rest of their days in this old system” in full-time preaching. In 1976 The Watchtower advised those who had been “disappointed” by unfulfilled expectations for 1975 to adjust their viewpoint because that understanding was “based on wrong premises”. Four years later, the Watch Tower Society admitted its responsibility in building up hope regarding 1975.

8. Lutheran Church:
   Michael Stiefel predicted the end of the world in 1533 and lost his living as minister in consequence. He was found another by Philip Melanchthon.One later writer noted, “In all of [ Martin Luther’s ] work there was a sense of urgency for the time was short… the world was heading for Armageddon in the war with the Turk.”

   Even after Luther’s death in 1546, Lutheran leaders kept up the claim of the nearness of the end. About the year 1584, a zealous Lutheran named Adam Nachenmoser wrote the large volume ‘[Prognosticum Theologicum]’ in which he predicted: “In 1590 the Gospel would be preached to all nations and a wonderful unity would be achieved. The last days would then be close at hand.” Nachenmoser offered numerous conjectures about the date; 1635 seemed most likely.

   The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod issued a study in 1989 refuting any end times claim, declaring that “repeatedly taught by Jesus and the apostles is the truth that the exact hour of Christ’s coming remains hidden in the secret counsels of God (Matt. 24:36).”

9. Latter Day Saints:
   Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon faith, made several dozen prophecies during his lifetime, many of which are recorded in the sacred texts of the Mormon faith. The prophecies included predictions of the Civil War, the second coming of Jesus, and several less significant predictions. Church apologists cite prophecies that they claim came true,[31] and church critics cite prophecies that they claim did not come true.
10. Mennonites:
    Russian Mennonite minister Claas Epp, Jr. predicted that Christ would return on March 8, 1889, and, when that date passed uneventfully, 1891.
11. Presbyterian Church:
    Thomas Brightman, who lived from 1562 to 1607, has been called “one of the fathers of Presbyterianism in England.” He predicted that “between 1650 and 1695 [we] would see the conversion of the many Jews and a revival of their nation in Palestine…the destruction of the Papacy…the marriage of the Lamb and his wife.”Christopher Love who lived from 1618–1651 was a bright graduate of Oxford and a strong Presbyterian. Love predicted that: (1) Babylon would fall in 1758 (2) God’s anger against the wicked would be demonstrated in 1759 and (3) in 1763 there would occur a great earthquake all over the world.
12. Roman Catholic Church:
    When in 1525 Martin Luther, an ex-monk, married Katharina von Bora, an ex-nun, his enemies[who?] said that their offspring would fulfill an old tradition that the Antichrist would be the son of such a union. The Catholic scholar and theologian Erasmus remarked that the tradition could apply to thousands of such children. In 1771 Bishop Charles Walmesley published, under the nom de plume of “Signor Pastorini”, his “General History of the Christian Church from Her Birth to Her Final Triumphant State in Heaven Chiefly Deduced from the Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle and Evangelist”. In it he attributed to what he called the fifth age of the Church a duration of 300 years, beginning with the Protestant Reformation in 1520 or 1525. This was widely interpreted as predicting the downfall of Protestantism by 1825. In fact, just four years later, the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 brought to a culmination the process of Catholic Emancipation throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
13. The list goes on…..

[gadam123]

These passages and many others like them tell us that a significant eschatological event was to occur in the lifetime of those who heard and read the prophecies.   Quote Gadam

No; it doesn’t.  Because no significant eschatological event did occur in the first century.  The conquest of Judah by Rome in 70 AD was only the fulfilment of Luke 21:20-24  We still await Luke 21:25-28.

Which will be the terrible Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.  Triggered by an attack upon Israel by an Islamic confederation, as described in Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12

The result of the Lord’s response, will be the virtual depopulation of the entire ME region.  Hosea 4:3, +

Hi Keras, thanks for your quick post on this thread.

But Paul and the each generation of Christianity taught that their generation is the one which would witness the Jesus’ Parousia but unfortunately they proved false.

The question I am raising here is whether Jesus predicted the future generation at all, when we read these verses?

“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” (Mark 9:1).

He assured  them, “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (13:30)—“all these things” apparently including reference to the “Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory”. In light of that promise, he adjured them again and again, “keep alert . . . keep awake . . . keep awake” (Mark 13:33–37),

for “truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23).

[Berean]

 Gadam

The Church of Christ is militant and imperfect, but soon it will be trionphante and ready for the return in glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, it is a matter of preparation ….

Revelation 19
And I heard like a voice of a great crowd, like the sound of great waters, and like the sound of loud thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our Almighty God has entered into his kingdom.

19: 7 Let us be glad and be glad, and give him glory; for the wedding feast of the lamb is come, and his bride has made herself ready,

19: 8 and it was given to him to put on a fine linen, shining, pure. For fine linen is the righteous works of the saints.

19: 9 And the angel said unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are called to the wedding feast of the lamb! And he said to me: These words are the true words of God. 

 

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 

 

AMEN!

[keras]

Unfulfilled prophecy simply means that it is yet to happen.  NOT because hundreds of years have passed, with no sign of when it will all will take place.  Ezekiel 33:33  When it [the prophesies] come, as surely they will.…

The list of predictions of when those people you quote, thought they would happen, is proof that we cannot know the Day when the Lord will strike the earth with His fiery wrath.    The Return in glory will not be a surprise, as it will happen exactly 1260 days after the ‘beast’ has conquered the holy people. Rev 12:6-17

[gadam123]

Unfulfilled prophecy simply means that it is yet to happen.  NOT because hundreds of years have passed, with no sign of when it will all will take place.  Ezekiel 33:33  When it [the prophesies] come, as surely they will.…

The list of predictions of when those people you quote, thought they would happen, is proof that we cannot know the Day when the Lord will strike the earth with His fiery wrath.    The Return in glory will not be a surprise, as it will happen exactly 1260 days after the ‘beast’ has conquered the holy people. Rev 12:6-17

This doesn’t answer my query. You choose to avoid Jesus words?

[Berean]

Hi Keras

 

You

The Return in glory will not be a surprise, as it will happen exactly 1260 days after the ‘beast’ has conquered the holy people. Rev 12:6-17 

Me 

1-The Holy people are those who keep the commandments of God AND have thé faith OF Jesus(Rev.14:12) THIS IS THE CHURCH OF GOD ,  THE HOUSE OF GOD(1Tim.3:15)

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.(1Tim.3:15)

2-

The beast will NOT defeat THE HOLY PEOPLE
SEE REV.15

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
[2] And I saw as it were a sea of ​​glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten THE VICTORY OVER THE BEAST, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
[4] Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

SOME OF THE WINNERS WILL BE MARTYRS SEE REV. 20:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

3-. 1260 prophetics days= 1260 litterals years

These 1260 years correspond to the time of papal supremacy (538 AD – 1798 AD) so it is in the past.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……Matt 13:29….So you  in like manner : when you shall “see” these thing come “to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. (30),  truly I say unto you, that “THIS GENERATION”  shall  not pass till all these thing be done.

what generation> The generation that, SEE’S THESE THINGS COME TO PASS.  That  is the generation he was talking about, not the generation of his day.

Adam you letting these Jews blind you, their proselytizing you brother. Come back where you belong brother.

peace and love to you and your Adam………..gene

[gadam123]

Adam……Matt 13:29….So you  in like manner : when you shall “see” these thing come “to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. (30),  truly I say unto you, that “THIS GENERATION”  shall  not pass till all these thing be done.

what generation> The generation that, SEE’S THESE THINGS COME TO PASS.  That  is the generation he was talking about, not the generation of his day.

Adam you letting these Jews blind you, their proselytizing you brother. Come back where you belong brother.

Hello brother Gene, please quote correct verse before commenting. It’s not Matt 13:29-30 but it’s Mark 13:29-30.

Please read Mark 9:1 first

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with[a] power.”

Then read Mark 13:30

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

If you want you can read Matt 24:34

 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Also Luke 21:31

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

Finally please read Matt 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Please identify the audience of Jesus first then understand my brother and please don’t be so biased by the  Christianity which made the Messiah a non-human and a god.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…..The kingdom of God comes not without  observation , ” it is within you.” That is what Jesus could have been talking about. Also the very next chapter,   he too some of the disciples  , where he was transformed before them and spoke with Moses and Elijah who appeared with him. Just as John was transported   also “before he died” into “the day of the lord”  into the kingdom of Jesus Christ,  in  the book of Revelations .

This generation is speaking of the generation existing ,  when these things,  Jesus spoke about,  starts to take place , that generation , will not pass away before all that Jesus said will take place,  Simple if you understand it right. IMO 

So, why would Jesus say it that way, simple  because , he clearly said no man know the exact day, not even himself.  So obviously he was talking about the Generation that  then would   Be existing,  at the time the thing he said starts to happen,   “THAT GENERATION” will not pass away , till , all the things he was talking about comes to pass.
Adam, simple for those who are guided by the Spirit of God, to understand.  But unto the rest he spoke in parables so, as it says , hearing they perceive not , seeing they see not.  These are those who put to death our lord Jesus Christ,  and you would follow and believe what they say?  Sad.

peace and love to you and yours………gene

 

 

[gadam123]

Hi Brother Gene thanks for your reply. But I don’t agree with your interpretation  on “this generation” as a particular generation because Jesus was referring to the generation whom he was talking. Gospel preaching to the ends of the earth again a speculation of Matthew’s writer as this saying is tied to  “truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23). Jesus was always referring to the his own people(Jews of his time) and not any ends of earth (World) as interpreted by the Christianity. Anyhow here are few reflections on the second.

In the middle of his ‘end times’ teaching in Matthew 24–25, Jesus makes this claim:

‘Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened’ (Matthew 24:34).

1. The most critical approach:

This isn’t just a difficult saying; C. S. Lewis called it ‘the most embarrassing verse in the Bible’. It completely undermines the use made – every day during the pandemic it seems! – of ‘end times prophets’ telling us we are ‘in the last days’. And it has led generations of scholars over the last 2000 years to believe that Jesus was a deluded apocalyptic prophet whose predictions failed to come true, so that he died a failure.

2. Agony and helplessness:

Matthew 24:34 says “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”.

“I am a Christian, and it is my duty to seek out truth, not plainly accept what I hear or what other people say it is. So I’ve read this verse, and it really had me confused. Taking it by word and its plain meaning. I can read this as:

‘this generation’ = people He was talking to
‘these things’ = judgement day/end times
It’s clearly obvious that ‘this generation’ have already passed away, his disciples/followers/people at that time are already dead by now, and the world hasn’t come to an end yet. What does this verse really mean?”

3. Play safe method:

The writer of Luke opted for a safe exit from these difficult words of Jesus. He tied AD 70 happenings with Jesus’ predictions and for future events, which I name it as  development of the doctrine of Parousia by the NT writers to save Jesus from failure.

Please think over….

 

[gadam123]

The Last Days according to the NT writers

According to preterists “the last days” refers to the time between the advent of John the Baptist and the destruction of Jerusalem. This “eschaton” refers not to a time in the distant future, but to a time that is imminent. Gary DeMar summarizes the relevant passages of the New Testament with emphasis on the radical nearness of the events predicted:

Some cataclysmic event was on the horizon, and the first-century church was being warned to prepare for it. There is no getting around this language and the ultimate conclusion that many of the verses that many believe are yet to be fulfilled have been fulfilled. . . .

1. “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:22–23, emphasis added).

2. “Jesus said to [the high priest], ‘You have said it yourself [that I am the Christ, the Son of God]; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Matt. 26:64, emphasis added).

3. “And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to waken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed” (Rom. 13:11).

4. “The night is almost gone and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light” (Rom. 13:12, emphasis added).

5. “For the form of this world is passing away” (1 Cor. 7:31, emphasis added).

6. “Now these things happened to [Israel] as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come” (1 Cor. 10:11, emphasis added).

7. “Let your forbearing spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near” (Phil. 4:5, emphasis added).

8. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer” (1 Pet. 4:7, emphasis added).

9. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door” (James 5:8–9, emphasis added).

10. “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18, emphasis added).

11. “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place . . .” (Rev. 1:1, emphasis added).

12. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near” (Rev. 1:3, emphasis added).

13. “I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown” (Rev. 3:11).

14. “And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his bondservants the things which must shortly take place” (Rev. 22:6, emphasis added).

15. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book” (Rev. 22:7, emphasis added).

16. “And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (Rev. 22:10, emphasis added). Compare this verse with Daniel 12:4, where Daniel is told to “seal up the book until the end of time.”

17. “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done” (Rev. 22:12, emphasis added; cf. Matt. 16:27).

18. “He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus” (Rev. 22:20, emphasis added).

These passages and many others like them tell us that a significant eschatological event was to occur in the lifetime of those who heard and read the prophecies. How quickly was this “coming” of Jesus and the so called end of time and age? was it for 40 years or 100 years or 2000 years or for no end of time?

You can decide…..

[Proclaimer]

Hi Brother Gene thanks for your reply. But I don’t agree with your interpretation  on “this generation” as a particular generation because Jesus was referring to the generation whom he was talking. Gospel preaching to the ends of the earth again a speculation of Matthew’s writer as this saying is tied to  “truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23). Jesus was always referring to the his own people(Jews of his time) and not any ends of earth (World) as interpreted by the Christianity. Anyhow here are few reflections on the second.

In the middle of his ‘end times’ teaching in Matthew 24–25, Jesus makes this claim:

‘Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened’ (Matthew 24:34).

The same Jesus who said this:

Matthew 24:45-50

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

In short, there is a generation that will see these things fulfilled.

Did they go through all the towns of Israel before they were scattered around the world? That is still to come as not all have returned to their homeland.

There has been much tribulation in the last 2000 years. The rise of the Ottoman Empire succeeding the Roman Empire seems to fit nicely with prophecy and the rise of the Antichrist too.

Prophecy nearly always is fulfilled in a different way than most expect.

[Berean]

ANTICHRIST

 

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us;

for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

ANTICHRIST WENT OUT FROM THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH BUT THEY WERE NOT OF THE CHURCH…

DID ISLAM OR ISLAMISTS COME OUT OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?

[Proclaimer]

There are many antichrists.

One sign for antichrists is they deny Jesus is the Son of God, which is a core tenant of Islam.

Islam is also based on Jewish and Christian scriptures. Probably done so in an attempt to gain legitimacy among the people.

But it introduced lethal doctrines and then forced this through preaching and violence.

Imagine the tribulations that Christians had to endure.

Once a place of many Christians, now they are almost extinct in many places in the Middle East.

Forced to convert or die in many cases.

[Berean]

Proclaimer

ANTICHRIST WENT OUT FROM THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH BUT THEY WERE NOT OF THE CHURCH…

DID ISLAM OR ISLAMISTS COME OUT OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?

Yes or no?

Thank’s

[gadam123]

In short, there is a generation that will see these things fulfilled.

Did they go through all the towns of Israel before they were scattered around the world? That is still to come as not all have returned to their homeland.

There has been much tribulation in the last 2000 years. The rise of the Ottoman Empire succeeding the Roman Empire seems to fit nicely with prophecy and the rise of the Antichrist too.

Hi Proclaimer, so you think that the so called Twelve disciples could not travel through the the limited towns of Israel available at the time of Jesus? Please read…

Matt 10: These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel…..

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

So you think there was no urgency before the so called coming (Parousia) of Jesus? Please see these allegations;

Matthew 16: 27 “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

To not take this literally one must ignore the preponderance of time statements (there are many!), completely discount audience relevance (incorrectly think that these 2000+ year old letters were written to us, and torture the scripture to make it fit personal convictions at the expense of the plain truth. You must also realize the One who can’t lie, at best, just deceived those men.

To make simple words like “soon” not mean “soon”. I’ve heard that He didn’t mean soon, but when he would return He would do it quickly… run rather than walk, I suppose. No, soon means soon, to them as it does to us today. Rev. 3:11, 22:7, 12, 20

Is there any sincerity in such interpretations of the Christianity on the time bound statements of Jesus?

 

[Berean]

 

 

 

Gadam

Matthew 16: 27 “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”  

Some standing HERE (with Jesus)

are Peter, James and John.

WHY?

Reed well

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt.17
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 

Can You understand ?

Peter, James, and John his brother, saw Jesus glorified, as he will be at his second advent(verse27)

[Proclaimer]

DID ISLAM OR ISLAMISTS COME OUT OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?

Yes or no?

This is not a fair yes / no question because no doubt that some would have and others not directly.

Antichrist theology likely came from Believers who fell away originally, but what of their offspring who also followed the way of their fathers or inherited this theology? Are they not antichrist because they didn’t themselves originate in the Church? The doctrine likely came from there as it would hardly be a doctrine of atheists or pagans. But certainly those who were taught this doctrine later on would also be antichrist if they embraced it.

And many generations later, Islam enters the scene. Obviously their rejection of the Son of God came from somewhere beforehand. But you seem to be arguing that they are not antichrist now because they may not have been the exact person that came from the Church originally?

But let scripture speak and let the Quran speak too.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son.
Whoever denies the Son, the same doesn’t have the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Quran 2:116
Who says “Allah has begotten a Son”?

Quran 10.68
They say, “Allah hath begotten a son!” Glory be to Him! He is Self-Sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!

To understand how central to the Islamic faith it is to oppose the view that God has a son, these words are inscribed in the mosque at the Dome of the Rock where the Jews formerly worshipped YHWH:

“Far be it from God that he should have a son!”

Thus Islam is an antichrist religion according to the scriptural definition of that term.

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