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Hello brother Gene, Thank you so much for your encouraging words to me.
You: ADAM we must always remember this foremost, “brethren you have “NO” need of a teacher, for the Spirit (of truth) teaches you all things ” , Adam the spirit of truth is the “cognition of truth” it is the “earnest ” given us by God the Father . Therefore it says, “that even the very elect would be deceived, “if it were possible “. Those who have the “Spirit of truth in them, can “NOT” be deceived > Adam don’t turn to the world to get truth, that path goes no where, but brings only confusions. Listen to the Spirit that has been given us by God the father, through Jesus Christ our lord.
Me: Amen
Peace and love…….Adam
‘We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord’, which may be taken to mean ‘we Christians who survive until the parousia’.
Are there not Christians today?
Lol.
One reason why I hardly read your posts. That is, I don’t like wasting time.
How about you stump up the no 1 reason why Jesus is not the messiah and give scriptural proof.
Or give us the no 1 reason with scriptural proof that the New Testament is a scam.
Thank you.
BTW, it is interesting to see Gene support your views. I always felt he wasn’t really a Believer rather than a person who was struggling to believe.
Thank you.
Hi Proclaimer, it’s good that you have read at least one of my posts.
You: Are there not Christians today?
Lol.
One reason why I hardly read your posts. That is, I don’t like wasting time.
How about you stump up the no 1 reason why Jesus is not the messiah and give scriptural proof.
Or give us the no 1 reason with scriptural proof that the New Testament is a scam.
Me: My post was about how Paul changed his opinion on the timing of Parousia of Jesus. Please go through the following para which you left out from my post.
“However, in Paul’s later epistles, it seems that he no longer expected to be alive at the second coming of Christ, but rather to die before it took place. Verses such as 2 Corinthians 4:12 (‘death is at work in us, but life in you’), 5:1, 8 (‘we know that if the earthly building we live in is destroyed … we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord’) are said to reflect this way of thinking, as well as Philippians 1:21, 23, where Paul speaks of dying as ‘gain’ and of his desire to ‘depart and be with Christ which is far better’. So now the apostle considers death before the parousia to be a real possibility, a perspective he did not seem to have prior to 2 Corinthians, and he now thinks that the parousia will no longer take place in the proximate future”
I was quoting on how the NT authors developed the concept of Parousia as the time passed right from the time of Jesus. Please read my initial posts for sharing your views on this topic.
Regarding Jesus as Messiah and the validity of NT I have already posted much on “Christian writers misquoting texts – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?”
Hi Proclaimer,
You: BTW, it is interesting to see Gene support your views. I always felt he wasn’t really a Believer rather than a person who was struggling to believe.
Me: Brother Gene is a nice gentleman. It’s really a shallow assessment on his beliefs. It show that people are just dead against others who are not agreeing to their beliefs. So sad. You can call me anything but not brother Gene who is one among the real Christians on this Heaven net.
Sorry to say that.
Me: My post was about how Paul changed his opinion on the timing of Parousia of Jesus. Please go through the following para which you left out from my post.
But did he really. He spoke about wanting to be present with the Lord but should stay to help the Church instead.
And as I mentioned, there will be a generation that will see all things. Was Paul saying it was his generation. Did he really say or teach that?
Let’s say he did. We already know that no man knows the time or the hour. Not even the Son. Only God knows that.
I am sure Paul was aware of Jesus own teachings on this.
Me: Brother Gene is a nice gentleman. It’s really a shallow assessment on his beliefs. It show that people are just dead against others who are not agreeing to their beliefs. So sad. You can call me anything but not brother Gene who is one among the real Christians on this Heaven net.
You are being emotional which can easily obscure the truth. I am simply stating things as they are to be judged according to what we have received in the New Testament. We are to be wary of false teachers for this reason. Those that preach a false gospel and another Jesus are to be avoided. We know that the Spirit of Antichrist makes it’s adherents deny the Father and the Son. They also deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. They even deny the Word from what I have seen.
The Word became flesh. God created all through the Word. God created all through the Son of God. His name is the Word of God. All denied by them despite being clearly written. If you do not believe that which is written then fair enough. You are not a Believer.
Gene teaches that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God is not the Word. He is not the one whom God created the universe through and for. He denies that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. He denies that he is the Word of God.
The antichrist spirit denies that he came in the flesh. He doesn’t believe that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. Gene even denies Jesus Christ’s former glory and does not acknowledge that he is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos.
The warnings on Antichrists was given to us 2000 years ago.
It is still true despite the passing of millennia.
I am not being emotional, but stating that which is written.
I’m simply stating things as they are if you believe the New Testament.
At least you say you do not believe it. Why I say a wolf.
He says he believes, but he does not it seems. Why I say wolf in sheep’s clothing.
And why do you both have an affinity for each other?
Is it that wolves like each other. They are kin.
Not saying this is the case for sure.
But food for thought when judging the fruit.
God knows.
Hi Proclaimer,
You: And as I mentioned, there will be a generation that will see all things. Was Paul saying it was his generation. Did he really say or teach that?
Me: Yes Paul and the each generation of Christianity taught the same that their generation is the one which would witness the Jesus’ Parousia but unfortunately they proved false.
The question I am raising here is whether Jesus predicted the future generation at all, when we read these verses?
“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” (Mark 9:1).
He assured them, “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (13:30)—“all these things” apparently including reference to the “Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory”. In light of that promise, he adjured them again and again, “keep alert . . . keep awake . . . keep awake” (Mark 13:33–37), for
“truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23).
Hi Proclaimer,
You: You are being emotional. I am simply stating things as they are to be judged according to what we have received in the New Testament. We are to be wary of false teachers. Those that preach a false gospel and another Jesus. We know that the Spirit of Antichrist makes it’s adherents deny the Father and the Son. They also deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. They even deny the Word.
Me: yes I was emotional on brother Gene the way you assessed him like an unbeliever. I wonder what is your definition of a believer. So you judge someone as per NT without even seeing their validity as per their original source Hebrew Bible? I have brought forth much arguments on the discrepancies of the NT writings here. Please prove your self first and then only you can judge someone else based on these writings. So called Antichrist who deny the father and son was the defence terminology used by the writer of 1 John who was defending his own Gospel or other writings which were being misinterpreted by some other Christians. That is the fate of these writings which are so ambiguous that they result in confusion to the readers. Why judge the readers?
You: Gene teaches that Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God is not the Word. He is not the one whom God created the universe through and for. He denies that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. He denies that he is the Word of God.
The antichrist spirit denies that he came in the flesh. He doesn’t believe that he emptied himself and came in the flesh. Gene even denies Jesus Christ’s former glory and does not acknowledge that he is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos.
Me: So what if brother Gene denies the views which are against his views like everyone doing the same here on this Forum? Do you judge him if he is contrary to your views? I have quoted much here on the assumptions that Christianity and NT writers made which are dead against the Hebrew Bible. Am I having any right to judge someone with my own views? No. The same applies everyone here. The logics you quoted above for judging brother Gene are nothing but allegations which don’t have support in the Hebrew Bible.
I am sorry to point out.
Adam…..it doesn’t bother me , because I understand, no one here has “all’ the truth. Because as Paul said we now see in part as looking through an obscure glass, but in that day we shall “all” see clearly, so we all lack some things brother. We are told to “grow” in grace “and” knowledge, which means we don’t have it all yet, and that my brother includes me .
I am glad you are here, because you force us to think about things, to examine our beliefs, Jodi does the same thing also, that to me is a good thing for us all brother.Brother Mike is also good at challenging our beliefs in things also in a good way, so are others here to, because of all the false teachings out there, that has crept into the true Church of God over the last 2000 years, cense Christianity started.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
Hello brother Gene,
You: Adam…..it doesn’t bother me , because I understand, no one here has “all’ the truth. Because as Paul said we now see in part as looking through an obscure glass, but in that day we shall “all” see clearly, so we all lack some things brother. We are told to “grow” in grace “and” knowledge, which means we don’t have it all yet, and that my brother includes me .
I am glad you are here, because you force us to think about things, to examine our beliefs, Jodi does the same thing also, that to me is a good thing for us all brother.Me: Amen brother I always like your simplicity and broad mindedness. You know brother in these difficult times of crisis in India as many of my Christian friends are dying only I get strength from God almighty. COVID has no religion or creed. I can only see the love towards other humanity is the real religion of the Bible. These doctrinal disagreements are nothing before love and kindness. I hope brother proclaimer understand these too.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam
Adam……I see brother Proclaimer. some times as, half way in and half way out, he can also force us to think, but I do believe, he nearly always means well, even though he can get a little testy as we all can at times, but remember what Jesus said , ” have salt in yourselves” “and” have peace among you also”.
Remember when Jesus told Peter, “get behind me Satan”, that must have been a shocker, . We are all unique to God and Jesus and each other to, I love that we are all made that way, brother. Jesus never lost his love for Peter no matter what he said to him, He loved them all, as he does each and every one of us too. We are each special to God theFather, and Jesus, and should be to each other also.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
Hello brother Gene,
You: Adam……I see brother Proclaimer. some times as, half way in and half way out, he can also force us to think, but I do believe, he nearly always means well, even though he can get a little testy as we all can at times, but remember what Jesus said , ” have salt in yourselves” “and” have peace among you also”.
Me: I also feel that brother Proclaimer(don’t know his real name) is a nice gentleman and he is the one running this Heaven Net (if I am correct) on good will and charity. I always appreciate such brothers and sisters who are caring for others. But I was little emotional on these personal attacks and judgements. Yes no one is perfect and no one is having all understanding on the scriptures. We are only debating on the issues that are not so clear in our Bible.
Peace and love to you & all …..Adam
Hi To all
Malachi 4: 5.6
Behold, I will send Elijah the prophet unto you, Before the day of the LORD comes, that great and dreadful day.4: 6 He will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a ban.
Elijah’s Message.
At this time, before Christ returns in the clouds of heaven, God needs men
who prepare a people to stand in the great day of the Lord. In these
days, a work like that of John must be done. By agents that the
Lord has chosen, he gives messages to his people, and he wants all to lend
watch out for admonitions and warnings he sends. The message that
preceded the public ministry of Christ was: Repent publicans and sinners;
repent, Pharisees and Sadducees, “for the kingdom of heaven is near.” Our
message should not be a message of peace and security. As a people who believe
in the near appearance of Christ, we have a definite message to give:
“Prepare to meet your God”.
Our message should be as direct as John’s. He rebuked kings for their iniquity.
Although he put his life in danger, he never allowed the truth to languish on his
lips. Our work, today, must be carried out with the same fidelity …
In this time of almost universal apostasy, God demands that his messengers
proclaim his law with the spirit and power of Elijah. Like John the Baptist, who prepared a
people for Christ’s first coming, drew his attention to the Ten
Commandments, thus, we must clearly give the message: “Fear God, and
give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come. “We must strivet to prepare the way for the second coming of Christ, with the same fervor that characterized Elijah the Prophet and John the Baptist (SW 21/3/1905).You: And as I mentioned, there will be a generation that will see all things. Was Paul saying it was his generation. Did he really say or teach that?
Me: Yes Paul and the each generation of Christianity taught the same that their generation is the one which would witness the Jesus’ Parousia but unfortunately they proved false.
The question I am raising here is whether Jesus predicted the future generation at all, when we read these verses?
“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” (Mark 9:1).
He assured them, “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (13:30)—“all these things” apparently including reference to the “Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory”. In light of that promise, he adjured them again and again, “keep alert . . . keep awake . . . keep awake” (Mark 13:33–37), for
“truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23).
It is certainly possible that this could be the case. But I am not convinced about it. Paul discusses the idea that he will go to be with the LORD, but for the sake of the Church that he would ask God to stay longer despite preferring to leave this world. So at some point he is clear that he will not be present at least and by extension he cannot view Jesus prophecy as including him (Paul).
The first verse is said to be fulfilled at the transfiguration. There Jesus, Moses, and Elijah are standing in Heavenly glory with the Father speaking. This is a taste of the Kingdom. Then we see that the Kingdom has come in the sense that God’s government on Earth is setup in his Church. We now await the kingdoms of the world to fall or be crushed whereby the kingdom rules in the same sense as the governments of this world. Think Daniel’s prophecy with the stone striking the image and growing to encompass the whole world. Obviously this is a process that needs to take place. One event after another.
The second verse you supplied is not a smoking gun verse either. This generation simply means that there will a particular generation that will see the fulfilment of all these things. Remember that Jesus taught that the gospel will need to be preached to the ends of the earth. The Church was certainly not even close to that goal. But let’s assume that this was possible. Well it is still dependant on certain things taking place and God working with mankind who has free will. It could be that things were delayed. We see this happen with Jonah and his message to Nineveh. Destruction was around the corner for them, but unexpected repentance changed the outcome because God can change his mind of people repent or if his people do not do what he tells them to do. This could also apply to the third verse you quoted. However, as I said before, ‘this generation’ just means a particular generation. In other words there will be a particular generation that will witness all these things. Jesus knew about this, but remember even he was not privy to the hour of his return. Only the Father.
Your third verse is certainly interesting. Without delving into the Greek to determine the meaning of the word exactly, we must remember that the Son of Man did return after he died. He rose from the grave, walked on the Earth, spoke to the disciples, even ate with them. Even the dead in Christ were raised at that point.
At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…
So as you can see. According to the New Testament, he did come. Now he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the universe was created. And we await his return upon which the kingdoms of this world will be crushed.
There are of course other possibilities to what this could mean. Some scholars suggest it is about the inauguration of the kingdom of Christ on the day of Pentecost.
Finally, look at how Luke views this. It doesn’t seem to support the idea that it would be done and dusted in a matter of decades.
“But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name’s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. And not a hair of your head shall perish. In your patience ye shall win your souls. But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh”
Hi proclaimer, thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply to my post. I appreciate your patience and care in replying my queries.
You: It is certainly possible that this could be the case. But I am not convinced about it. Paul discusses the idea that he will go to be with the LORD, but for the sake of the Church that he would ask God to stay longer despite preferring to leave this world. So at some point he is clear that he will not be present at least and by extension he cannot view Jesus prophecy as including him (Paul).
Me: Yes it was possible for Paul to change his opinion on the Parousia of Jesus when we compare the verses in 1 Th 4:
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
and 1 Cor 15:
51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,[m] but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
with 2 Th 2:
3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction
and Phil 1:
23 I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;
Daniel : Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism: prophecy is reckoned to have ended with Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.[5] In the Hebrew Bible his book is not included under the Prophets (the Hebrew Bible has three sections, Torah, Prophets and Writings), perhaps because its content does not match the prophetic books. I will post separately on Daniel.
You: The second verse you supplied is not a smoking gun verse either. This generation simply means that there will a particular generation that will see the fulfilment of all these things. Remember that Jesus taught that the gospel will need to be preached to the ends of the earth.
Me: I don’t agree with your interpretation “this generation” as a particular generation because Jesus was referring to the generation whom he was talking. Gospel preaching to the ends of the earth again a speculation of Matthew’s writer as this saying is tied to the third one “truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23). Jesus was always referring to the his own people(Jews of his time) and not any ends of earth (World) as interpreted by the Christianity. Anyhow here are few reflections on the second.
In the middle of his ‘end times’ teaching in Matthew 24–25, Jesus makes this claim:
‘Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened’ (Matthew 24:34).
The most critical approach – This isn’t just a difficult saying; C. S. Lewis called it ‘the most embarrassing verse in the Bible’. It completely undermines the use made – every day during the pandemic it seems! – of ‘end times prophets’ telling us we are ‘in the last days’. And it has led generations of scholars over the last 2000 years to believe that Jesus was a deluded apocalyptic prophet whose predictions failed to come true, so that he died a failure.
Agony and helplessness:
Matthew 24:34 says “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”.
I am a Christian, and it is my duty to seek out truth, not plainly accept what I hear or what other people say it is. So I’ve read this verse, and it really had me confused. Taking it by word and its plain meaning. I can read this as:
‘this generation’ = people He was talking to
‘these things’ = judgement day/end times
It’s clearly obvious that ‘this generation’ have already passed away, his disciples/followers/people at that time are already dead by now, and the world hasn’t come to an end yet. What does this verse really mean?Most safe approach:
Preterist Interpretation: In the generation of Jesus, during that particular interval of time, all the things spoken of in the Olivet Discourse (the birth pangs, the persecutions, false prophets, abomination of desolation, and coming of Jesus on the clouds, etc.) took place. All was fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed.
“This generation” = the time of Jesus’s contemporaries.
“All these things” = everything spoken of in the Olivet Discourse.
Status: the prophecy is fulfilled.
Advantages: a plain interpretation of the words of Jesus. Everything in the verse is taken straightforwardly.
Disadvantages: it is not obvious how all things spoken of in the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the 1st century.You can see what a confusion it created?
You: Your third verse is certainly interesting. Without delving into the Greek to determine the meaning of the word exactly, we must remember that the Son of Man did return after he died. He rose from the grave, walked on the Earth, spoke to the disciples, even ate with them. Even the dead in Christ were raised at that point.
Me: “truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23). Yes it is quite interesting. Finally Jesus was laying the bench marks for his return.
So you take Matthews description of events at his death as the proof for Jesus’ Parousia? You mean the so called resurrection of the dead mentioned only by the First Gospel as the promised resurrection of the dead before Jesus’ Parousia? I don’t think others in this Forum also agree with your views on this.
You: Finally, look at how Luke views this. It doesn’t seem to support the idea that it would be done and dusted in a matter of decades.
Me: Yes Luke opted for a safe exit from these difficult words of Jesus. He tied AD 70 happenings with Jesus’ predictions and for future events, which I name it as development of the doctrine of Parousia by the NT writers to save Jesus from failure.
Thanks for nice chat….Adam
“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” (Mark 9:1).
The followings verses explains the context of That JESUS SAID in Mark 9:1
Mathew 16
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.[28] Truly I tell you, there are those who stand here who will not taste death, until they see the Son of man come into his kingdom.
Matthew 17: 1,2
[1] At the end of six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and set them apart to a high mountain,
[2] And he was transfigured before them: and his face shone as the sun, and his garment was white as the light.Mark 8
[38] Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; also the Son of man will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 9
[1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God come in power.
[2] After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John with him, and led them alone to a high mountain, and he was transfigured before them.
[3] His garment became bright, extremely white as snow; so that no more full on earth can whiten them.Lukee 9
[26] For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, him shall be ashamed of the Son of man, when he cometh in his own glory, and in that of his Father, and of the holy angels.
[27] But I tell you a truth, there are some who stand here who will not taste death, until they see the kingdom of God.
[28] And it came to pass about a week after these words, he took Peter, John, and James, and went up a mountain to pray.
[29] And while he was praying, the fashion of his face was changed, and his garment was white and shining.Peter, James and John were the “some standing here ” who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” WHEN THEY saw Jesus glorified BEFORE THEM.
Hi proclaimer, sorry some thing happened when I was typing the reply to your post. I could not notice that the some portion of the text for First verse was deleted. Anyhow here I am quoting it again.
You: The first verse is said to be fulfilled at the transfiguration. There Jesus, Moses, and Elijah are standing in Heavenly glory with the Father speaking. This is a taste of the Kingdom. Then we see that the Kingdom has come in the sense that God’s government on Earth is setup in his Church.
Me: I can not agree your interpretation of Mark 9:1 as the fulfillment at the Transfiguration. Please refer the verse Matt 16:
27 “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
So more things claimed to be fulfilled when the son of man comes in his kingdom. If you claim this happened at Transfiguration then we need to question the other NT writings including Paul’s. Please remember Jesus predicted only one Parousia which would take place within the generation of his audience. I don’t think Church is the Kingdom which is predicted by Jesus. No Jew of Jesus’ time thinks that way as they were expecting a physical kingdom and not any spiritual as Christianity interpreted all these 2000 years. Daniel 2 also talks about physical kingdom but I differ much with Christian interpretation. I will quote more details on the book of Daniel in my future posts.
Thank you.
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