Question of Parousia of Jesus – how Christianity manage the dilemma?

[Berean]

Gadam

I believe that Christ will return before the Millennium, that is, before his literal 1,000 year reign IN HEAVEN (NOT ON EARTH) I am not Futurist. Please go to the thread I posted: The moral purpose of prophecy
Chapter 4
The fundamental error of futurism: SEPTEMBER 2, 2021 AT 8:26 AM # 873277

You Can also read :

5. Other futuristic falsehoods

6. Futurism and the Book of Revelation

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer……Kingdoms are just symbols of who has the predominate rule, not  every little kingdom that exists  within or without them, have the greater rule.

Here are the seven kingdoms that had the greater rule. And some for centuries even millennia.

Egypt – 3100 to 677 BC (Genesis 12:10)
Assyria – 677 to 626 BC (Genesis 2:14)
Babylon – 626 – 539 BC (Daniel 1:1)
Medo-Persia – 539 – 449 BC (Daniel 5:28)
Greecia – 449 – 146 BC (Daniel 10:20)
Rome – 146 BC-476 AD eastern leg / 1453 AD western leg or Byzantium (Daniel 9:26 & Romans 1-7)
Ottoman – 1453 – 1924 AD (Future empire when Revelation was written, but historical empire today)

[Proclaimer]

If you see the summary of the above commentary Hippolytus replaced the earlier interpretations by incorporating Roman Empire as the Fourth Empire of Daniel and by merging the Media with Persian Kingdom which became the Second  and Greece became the Third.

This is natural. When a future event is prophesied, people only have data from their time looking back. So their conclusions will always be limited and varied. All science works like that. As we get more data and as breakthroughs are made, people build on the work of others.

What we know for sure in the text is the gold head of the statue is Babylon. Then it gets harder because it is not interpreted in the text for us for obvious reasons. The next easiest one for me (which doesn’t make it correct) is the legs of iron being Rome. I say this for a number of reasons.

1. Rome had two legs. East and West.
2. It’s affiliation with iron is not to be underestimated. The Roman Iron Age as some call it was significant. The iron weapons of Rome was part of its military prowess. This kingdom was particularly brutal and it crushed its enemies with no mercy.

And it seems that those who do not include Rome do so because they count Medio-Persia as two empires. But history doesn’t seem to bear this out. The Medes were also Persians. They spoke the Median language. This kingdom was founded by Cyrus the Great and he was certainly a great king because of his tolerance which led to few rebellions. That kingdom did not last as long as many of the others, but it was bigger in extent than the previous kingdoms.

For me, the fourth has to be Rome as history bears out. The real debate here is Medio-Persia. Why is it one Kingdom vs two kingdoms. The answer to that determines if Rome is included.

We also know that Jesus was born during the reign of the Roman Empire. He brought in the Kingdom of God which is the stone that struck the base leading to its ultimate demise. As we know, the stone eventually became a great mountain (Kingdom of God) that filled the whole earth. So the Kingdom of God while it came in Roman times took some time to grow and fill the whole earth. Jesus even said that the Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed.

He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man planted in his field. Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”…

[gadam123]

Gadam

I believe that Christ will return before the Millennium, that is, before his literal 1,000 year reign IN HEAVEN (NOT ON EARTH) I am not Futurist. Please go to the thread I posted: The moral purpose of prophecy

Thank you….

[gadam123]

The next easiest one for me (which doesn’t make it correct) is the legs of iron being Rome. I say this for a number of reasons.

Rome had two legs. East and West.
It’s affiliation with iron is not to be underestimated. The Roman Iron Age as some call it was significant. The iron weapons of Rome was part of its military prowess. This kingdom was particularly brutal and it crushed its enemies with no mercy.

Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your reply to my post on the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel. I liked your latest post on Daniel’s Four Kingdoms. I just wanted to touch on Rome being called the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel. The Fourth Kingdom was detailed much in Chap 7, 8 and 11 of Daniel. The following are prominent verses;

Dan 7:

23 This is what he said: “As for the fourth beast,

there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth
that shall be different from all the other kingdoms;
it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them.
This one shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.

This Fourth Beast may look similar to that of Revelation 13 & 17 but it is quite different. The  little horn would be a Eleventh King and “shall put down three kings” whereas the Beast of Revelation having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 13:

 1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads; and on its horns were ten diadems, and on its heads were blasphemous names.

Rev 17:

9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

If you see the above the Beast of Revelation consists of two sets of Kings; Seven to Eight and the ten kings who will be subordinate to the Beast. So this Beast is different from the Fourth Beast of Dan 7.

Ok now let us further look at Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom; Dan 8:

8 Then the male goat grew exceedingly great; but at the height of its power, the great horn was broken, and in its place there came up four prominent horns toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, a little one, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the beautiful land.

21 The male goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.

23 At the end of their rule,  when the transgressions have reached their full measure,
a king of bold countenance shall arise,  skilled in intrigue.

The above talks about the Fourth Kingdom represented by the Male Goat. The Great horn was signifying its mighty Emperor Alexander the Great of the Kingdom of Greece as per the all the commentaries on Daniel. The Little horn was signifying Antiochus IV. So you can notice that no Roman Empire is visible at this point in Daniel. Let’s move further to Dan 11:

2 “Now I will announce the truth to you. Three more kings shall arise in Persia. The fourth shall be far richer than all of them, and when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a warrior king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion and take action as he pleases. 4 And while still rising in power, his kingdom shall be broken and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity, nor according to the dominion with which he ruled;

Chap 11 confirms the narrations of Chap 8 stating that the Greece would be the Kingdom (Fourth) during which the climax of the Danielic visions occur. Then from Verses 5-45 of Chap 11 give greater details of this Grecian Kingdom including the continuous wars between the kings of North and South.

Dan 11:

 31 Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate. 32 He shall seduce with intrigue those who violate the covenant; but the people who are loyal to their God shall stand firm and take action.

36 “The king shall act as he pleases. He shall exalt himself and consider himself greater than any god, and shall speak horrendous things against the God of gods. He shall prosper until the period of wrath is completed, for what is determined shall be done. 37 He shall pay no respect to the gods of his ancestors, or to the one beloved by women; he shall pay no respect to any other god, for he shall consider himself greater than all.

The above verses clearly talk about the Little horn none but the Antiochus of Epiphanies also called Antiochus IV who desecrated the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem during the Second Century BCE.

Dan 11:

45 He shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with no one to help him.

That would be the end of this Little horn.

So what do you say? Could you find the Roman Empire in any of the texts of Daniel? This is the reason why I deny the Christian equation of Danielic visions with those of Revelation. The so called God’s Kingdom promised in the book of Daniel never took place even after complete collapse of the entire Fourth Kingdom of Greece.

My next discussion will be on the Beast of the Revelation.

Thank you….

 

 

 

[gadam123]

The Beast(s) of Revelation

The first beast comes “out of the sea” and is given authority and power by the dragon. This first beast is initially mentioned in Revelation 11:7 as coming out of the abyss. His appearance is described in detail in Revelation 13:1–10, and some of the mystery behind his appearance is revealed in Revelation 17:7–18.

The second beast comes “out of the earth” and directs all peoples of the earth to worship the first beast. The second beast is associated with Revelation 13:11–18 the false prophet.

The two beasts are aligned with the dragon in opposition to God. They persecute the “saints” and those who do “not worship the image of the beast [of the sea]” and influence the kings of the earth to gather for the battle of Armageddon. The two beasts are defeated by Christ and are thrown into the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 19:18–20.

Beast from the sea

The description of the beast is found in Revelation chapters thirteen and seventeen. Chapter thirteen gives the fullest description. John saw it “rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.” (Revelation 13:1) It was like a leopard, with feet like the feet of a bear, and had a mouth like a lion. One of its heads had a mortal wound which healed itself, causing people to wonder at it and follow it. (Revelation 13:1-10) This description draws many parallels with a vision in the Book of Daniel where four beasts symbolizing a succession of kingdoms come out of the sea in the forms of a lion, bear, leopard and a beast with ten horns.

Revelation 17 mentions a third beast described as “a scarlet coloured beast” which ascends from the bottomless pit , full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.” (Revelation 17:3) and some of the symbols are explained. The prevailing view is that the scarlet beast is another, distinct, visualisation of the same subject as the beast of the sea, which is pictured with crowns on its horns, unlike the scarlet beast. The scarlet beast is shown being ridden by a harlot who “reigns over the kings of the earth”, (Revelation 17:18) whereas the beast of the sea is not described as being ridden, and is given “power and great authority.” The seven heads represent both seven mountains and seven kings, and the ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received kingdoms. Of the seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come. The beast itself is an eighth king who is of the seven and “was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition.”

Beast from the Earth

The second beast is primarily described in Revelation chapter thirteen. This second beast comes out of the earth whose overall appearance is not described, other than having “two horns like a lamb”, and speaking “like a dragon”. His purpose is to promote the authority of the first beast with the ability to perform great signs, even making fire come down out of Heaven. This second beast is also called the false prophet. He speaks like a dragon commanding the people of the Earth to make an image “to” the beast that was wounded by a sword. It is declared that anyone who does not worship the beast or its image would be killed. The lamb-horned beast from the earth also causes all people to receive the mark of the beast “in their right hand or in their forehead.”

Image of the beast

Those who dwell on the Earth are deceived into making an image of the beast as a means to worship his authority. It is the lamb-horned beast who breathes life into the “image of the beast”, so that the image becomes alive and is able to speak. It also declares death to anyone who does not worship the authority of the beast. Those who are killed for not conforming to the authority of the beast are blessed through the “first resurrection” that allows them to rule in Christ’s presence as priests during the one thousand-year reign. The second death has no power over these individuals who were victorious over the beast by not being deceived, even though they lost their lives on Earth by his authority.

Mark of the beast

“The beast from the sea” bears a name. This name is not given, but it corresponds to the number 666 or 616, which is also the number of a man. The mark of the beast’s name or number was required of all who bought and sold.

Fate of the beast and false prophet

The beast and the false prophet gather the kings of the earth and their armies to prepare for war against “He who sits on a white horse”. The battle results in the beast being seized, along with the false prophet, where they are thrown alive into “the lake of fire”. Those against the “King of Kings, and Lord of Lords” are killed and left for the fowls. In the lake of fire, the beast and the false prophet are tormented day and night forever and ever. The dragon joins them a little more than a millennium later after the great war.

Various interpretations of these Beasts 

1. Preterism: It is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible, especially the Books of Daniel and Revelation, by reference to events that had already happened. Preterist academic scholars generally identify the first beast from the sea with the Roman Empire, particularly with Emperor Nero. The beast from the earth is generally identified with the Roman imperial cult. Sometimes there is a particular identification with a personage such as a chief administrator of Roman rule in Ephesus and Asia Minor. This interpretation is based upon the angel’s explanation of the beast in Revelation 17:7, that the beast’s seven heads are seven kings (Revelation 17:10) and that Nero, is the sixth king “who is”, who was possibly alive and the emperor reigning at the time John was writing the book. The five kings who have fallen are seen as Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius; Galba is the one who “has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain for a little while”. (Revelation 17:10). Moreover, Rome was known in antiquity as the city of seven hills (Revelation 17:9) and Revelation was a warning about events that were “shortly” to take place (Revelation 1:1).
2. Historicism: It is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which interprets biblical prophecies as actual historical events and identifies symbolic beings with historical persons or societies in the history of the church. This interpretation was favored by the Protestant reformers such as John Wycliff and Martin Luther, as well as other prominent figures such as Isaac Newton. According to this interpretation, the beast and false prophet were most commonly identified with the papacy in its political and religious aspects. The identification with the papacy is a viewpoint echoed by Seventh-day Adventist writers. According to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the “image to the beast” represents Protestant churches which will form an alliance with the Papacy, and the “mark of the beast” refers to a future universal Sunday law. Adventists have interpreted the number of the beast, 666, as corresponding to a Latin title Vicarius Filii Dei of the Pope. The number 666 is calculated by using a form of gematria where only the letters which refer to Latin numerals are counted.
3. Idealism: It also known as the allegorical or symbolic approach, is an interpretation of the book of Revelation that sees the imagery of the book as non-literal symbols. This is a common viewpoint of modern Christian scholars such as Gregory Beale in his New International Greek Testament Commentary on the Book of Revelation. Some Idealist interpretations identify none of the book’s symbols with particular historical events while some idealists like Beale take a more eclectic approach which see that the book portrays events throughout history while also predicting some future events such as the return of Christ. In this view, the beast from the sea is interpreted as the state or any human kingdom that is in opposition to God. This would include the Roman Empire but would broadly apply to all empires. Scholars take their cue from the parallels between Revelation 13 and Daniel 7, noting that in Daniel 7:17 that the beasts are revealed as kingdoms. Therefore, given that the beast of Revelation thirteen is a composite of the beasts of Daniel, one should similarly interpret this beast as a kingdom, more specifically a composite of all kingdoms. Similarly, in some idealist circles, it is suggested that the beast represents different social injustices, such as exploitation of workers, wealth, the elite, commerce, materialism, and imperialism. Various Christian anarchists, such as Jacques Ellul, have associated the State and political power as the beast. The Idealist interpretation of the beast from the earth is that it represents religious, cultural and economic powers within society which work to compel people to give their allegiance to the state or governmental powers. This was first expressed in the imperial cult of Rome, but finds expression at all times of history. In his commentary, Michael Wilcock says “Religion, indeed is too narrow an identification of the second beast. He is, in modern parlance, the ideology-whether religious, philosophical, or political-which ‘gives breath to’ any human social structure organized independently of God.”
4. Futurism: It is a Christian eschatological view that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel as future events in a literal, physical, apocalyptic, and global context. This viewpoint is adopted by Dispensationalism and has become deeply rooted in American Evangelical churches. Futurism interprets the beast from the sea to represent a revived Roman empire that will oppose Christians in the last days. Futurists would admit the symbolic ties to Rome and would interpret that the recovery from the fatal head wound would refer to a revival of this empire in the last days. It is usually understood that this revived empire will be ruled by the Antichrist, though some refer to the beast as the Antichrist. Futurist scholars, such as John Walvoord, identify this beast not as the individual ruler but as the revived Roman empire, noting that the reference to Rome’s seven hills and the connection to the beasts in Daniel seven indicate that the beast represents a kingdom. Futurism interprets the beast from the earth, or false prophet, as the future head of the apostate church or as a future expression of false religion in general. Interpretation of the mark or number of the beast is similar to the idealist view suggesting that the number six refers to imperfection, falling short of the divine number seven….(taken from Wikipedia)

Please share your views on this interesting topic.

 

[Proclaimer]

If you see the above the Beast of Revelation consists of two sets of Kings; Seven to Eight and the ten kings who will be subordinate to the Beast. So this Beast is different from the Fourth Beast of Dan 7.

Yes they are different descriptions, so the latter doesn’t appear to be copied. Yet both fit history.

When the western leg collapsed it turned into Western Europe where there are around 10 kings. The other leg  remained and was eventually conquered and then that conqueror mixed with the iron in the full extent of the Roman Empire. Once the next empire ended (as well as the whole beast for that matter), 10 or so countries rose up in Eastern Europe. I’m not sure what the 10 kings actually refer to however. It could be the 10 kings in the east, 10 kings in the west, or just 10 selected kings from the region that are not part of the empire but align with it.

Daniel’s vision describes the two legs and the metal correctly and Revelations in my view is also a good description. If both are true, then we have a fuller picture rather than a contradiction.

I guess you disagree, so what is your so-called no 1 contradiction between the legs of iron and the sixth head of the beast?

[gadam123]

Yes they are different descriptions, so the latter doesn’t appear to be copied. Yet both fit history.

When the western leg collapsed it turned into Western Europe where there are around 10 kings. The other leg  remained and was eventually conquered and then that conqueror mixed with the iron in the full extent of the Roman Empire. Once the next empire ended (as well as the whole beast for that matter), 10 or so countries rose up in Eastern Europe. I’m not sure what the 10 kings actually refer to however. It could be the 10 kings in the east, 10 kings in the west, or just 10 selected kings from the region that are not part of the empire but align with it.

Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your reply to my post on Danielic Fourth Kingdom. But you have not commented on my arguments stating that the Roman Empire was not at all mentioned in the Danielic Kingdoms forget about your repeated arguments on left and right legs. Please show me where is this Roman Empire mentioned in the book of Daniel?

I have already started my discussion on the Beasts of Revelation in my previous post. You can share your views on that separately.

[Proclaimer]

The writing is on the wall

Please show me where is this Roman Empire mentioned in the book of Daniel?

Except for Babylon, no kingdom is mentioned by name.

I just think it fits history like a glove.

There are 4 kingdoms so I simply look back at history and see:

Babylon – 626 – 539 BC (Daniel 1:1)
Medo-Persia – 539 – 449 BC (Daniel 5:28)
Greecia – 449 – 146 BC (Daniel 10:20)
Rome – 146 BC-476 AD eastern leg / 1453 AD western leg or Byzantium (Daniel 9:26 & Romans 1-7)

The other reason why it is Rome is because of Daniel 5:28.

It doesn’t divide Medo-Persia into two kingdoms which is required if you do not want to include Rome.

“Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

[gadam123]

Except for Babylon, no kingdom is mentioned by name.

Not only Babylon but also Media, Persia and Greece are mentioned in Daniel.

The other reason why it is Rome is because of Daniel 5:28.

It doesn’t divide Medo-Persia into two kingdoms which is required if you do not want to include Rome.

Yes Media and Persia seems to be taken together. But the book talks about the Fourth Kingdom as Greece in various references like in Chap 8 & 11. Please see my post on the Fourth Kingdom for more details. We can not take Rome as Fourth Kingdom as it was not mentioned any where in the book. This is my point.

 

[Proclaimer]

Sorry, I was thinking about the statue itself.

I will take a look at your last point.

BTW, when you get notification of my post, see if it says ‘from Proclaimer’ or ‘from gadam’.

[gadam123]

Sorry, I was thinking about the statue itself.

I will take a look at your last point.

BTW, when you get notification of my post, see if it says ‘from Proclaimer’ or ‘from gadam’.

Thank you for noting my point.

Yes I got notification from you “From Proclaimer”

[Proclaimer]

Interesting then.

It said gadam for me. And you did post.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……how could The Roman Empire not be mentioned,  if the prophesy in Daniel 2, shows us all the Babylonian type kingdoms to the return of Jesus . Are you telling us the prophesy would leave out one of the greats World Empires that ever existed ?
It doesn’t leave it out,  nor does it leave out this present world ruling type of BABYLON EMPIRES TODAY “THE FEET OF IRON AND CLAY” .  it describes the present  day nations clearly .  Which is the Fifth and it shows the future coming of the Sixth kingdom, of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s  and from the end of the sixth comes the SEVENTH  just as described in Rev 17,  just that simple if you understand the timeline being shown there.

peace and love to you and yours……….gene

[gadam123]

Adam……how could The Roman Empire not be mentioned,  if the prophesy in Daniel 2, shows us all the Babylonian type kingdoms to the return of Jesus . Are you telling us the prophesy would leave out one of the greats World Empires that ever existed ?

Hi brother Gene, you are taking Biblical texts for granted to prove your misconceptions. Please read the scriptures properly and not just quoting what you got from the Christian traditions. Please read my posts to Proclaimer for more details on this subject.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……What i am saying is, it would make no sense to give us a prophesy that shows the world ruling Babylonian kingdoms to the time of Jesus’ return and leave out the Roman Empire ,  that’s just common sense. I am not taking any bible text for granted Adam,  I know  from scripture that the Roman Empire is indeed mentioned , by Daniel. They are the two legs  of Iron , and lasted until 467 AD .

Adam if you don’t have the timeline right, you can’t ever understand  Rev 17 nor Dan 2 right ,  no matter how hard you try.

peace and love to you and yours………gene

 

 

[gadam123]

Adam……What i am saying is, it would make no sense to give us a prophesy that shows the world ruling Babylonian kingdoms to the time of Jesus’ return and leave out the Roman Empire ,  that’s just common sense. I am not taking any bible text for granted Adam,  I know  from scripture that the Roman Empire is indeed mentioned , by Daniel. They are the two legs  of Iron , and lasted until 467 AD .

Hi brother Gene, who had given us the prophecy for our day? It simply the imagination of Christianity and Judaism to claim that the writer of Daniel given them some secret revelations. But if you critically evaluate this book it claims nothing about our timeline. It certainly mentioned  the Kingdoms Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece but no Rome or no Ottoman as being claimed by many others. This book was written by a Pseudo writer during the Antiochene crisis in Second Century BCE. He never imagined about the distant future to include the Roman Empire or beyond. Please read the texts carefully especially the Chapters 8 & 11 for understanding my arguments.

[Berean]

Gadam

YOU ARE MISLEADING, THE BOOK OF DANIEL IS A VERY, VERY PRECIOUS BOOK. AND WITH THE BOOK OF REVELATION, WE CAN THANK GOD FOR GIVING THEM.
YOU WASTE YOUR TIME ENOUGH TO CONVINCE US THAT DANIEL IS NOTHING OF INTEREST FOR OUR TIME, WHILE IT IS ALL THE CONTRARY.

[gadam123]

Book of Revelation and its context

The author of the Book of Revelation does not give much of a clue about the particular time in which he is writing. In contrast to several references to specific places, the seer’s references to the historical situation are either nonexistent or so veiled as to give no certain information to the reader today. Chapters 13, 17, and 18 in the Book of Revelation refer to emperors and to the city of Rome, so that we may be certain that the book was written in the time of the empire; but even Revelation 17, which elaborates on the seven-headed beast (Rev. 13:1) by specific reference to emperors past, present, and future, gives no certain information about the precise time of the writing.

From chapter 17 we can narrow the time down somewhat. The great harlot, referred to earlier in 14:8, is judged. Upon her forehead is written “a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of  arth’s abominations'” (17:5). She is seated upon a scarlet beast “which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns” (17:3). Later the seven heads are identified as seven hills (17:9), and the city that sits upon the seven hills “has dominion over the kings of the earth” (17:18). These two characteristics of the city/woman —power over the earth and “sitting” upon seven hills — identifies her clearly as Rome, the capital of the empire. In other words, Rome and all those under her will be destroyed in the pouring out of the seventh bowl (Rev. 16:17-21, cf. 17:15-18).

In connection with Rome’s destruction there is an allusion to the “return” of one of the emperors. There are three versions of this return: (1) “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition” (17:8); (2) “The dwellers on earth . . . will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come” (17:8); and (3) “As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth [king] but it belongs to the seven [kings], and it goes to perdition” (17:11). This “coming again” of one of the kings alludes to the Emperor Nero, around whom developed, after his death (or flight), an expectation that he would come again from the East and fight against some or all of the Roman Empire. In Jewish and Christian literature this “revived Nero” is sometimes portrayed as both anti-Roman and an opponent of the chosen people. For example, in the fourth Sibylline Oracle Nero is referred to as follows: “Then the strife of war being aroused will come to the west, and the fugitive from Rome will also come, brandishing a great spear, having crossed the Euphrates with many myriads” (Sib. Or. 4.137-39). In the fifth Sibylline Oracle Nero will be destructive “even when he disappears”: “Then he will return declaring himself equal to God. But he will prove that he is not” (Sib. Or. 5.33-34, cf. 5.93-110). In the Book of Revelation, the Nero legend is associated with the beast from the abyss and with the “eighth” king who is at the 14 Orientation same time “one of the seven.” He is one of the evil end-time figures who will make war against the Lamb and his followers (17:14). Given the presence of this legend, the Book of Revelation could not have been written in its present form before 68 CE when Nero died, but the legend could have spread quickly after Nero’s death.

The identification of Rome with Babylon also provides some evidence for dating the Book of Revelation. In Jewish literature, the enemy Rome is designated Edom, Kittim, and Egypt, as well as Babylon. For the most part, however, the identity with Babylon occurs after 70 CE, that is, Rome is called Babylon after she destroys Jerusalem and the temple. Yarbro Collins thus concludes, “It is highly unlikely that the name would have been used before the destruction of the temple by Titus. This internal element then points decisively to a date after 70 C.E.” (1981, 382). More evidence for dating Revelation seems to be given in the reference to the seven heads of the beast as seven kings (emperors) (17:9-14). Of those seven kings, “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come and when he comes he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition.” One needs simply to figure out which five emperors have already fallen, and then the sixth emperor is reigning during the time that John writes. The earliest possible of the five past rulers would be Julius Caesar who died in 44 BCE. The complete list following Julius Caesar would then be the five emperors of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, the three emperors during the confusion after Nero’s death, the three Flavian emperors, and then, if relevant, Nerva and Trajan. Their reigns occurred as follows:

Julius (d. 44 BCE)
Julio-Claudian dynasty (27 BCE-68 CE)
Augustus (27 BCE-14 CE)
Tiberius (14-37)
Gaius (Caligula) (37-41)
Claudius (41-54)
Nero (54-68)
Three short-lived emperors
Galba (68-69)
Otho (69)
Vitellius (69)
The Flavians (69-96)
Vespasian (69-79)
Titus (79-81)
Domitian(81-96)
Nerva (96-98)
Trajan (98-117)
The puzzle is twofold: Where should one begin the count, and which emperors should be included in the count? Rowland argues that the simplest solution begins with Augustus and counts each emperor to the sixth, Galba. He thus supports the dating of Revelation around 68 CE, during the upheaval that came between the death of Nero and the accession of Vespasian: “The great uncertainty which was felt Historical Setting and Genre 15 throughout the empire during AD 68 could hardly have failed to stir up the hopes of Jews and Christians that their deliverance was nigh” (1982, 406). Rowland here follows the lead of Bishop Lightfoot, B. F. Westcott, F. J. A. Hort, and more recently John A. T. Robinson and Albert Bell (see Rowland 1982, 403), all of whom argued for the chaotic state of the empire after Nero’s death as the setting in which Revelation was written.

John Court, on the other hand, noting that the Antichrist tradition is clearly applied to Rome in this assage and not to Jerusalem, concludes that the fall of Jerusalem (70 CE) must have occurred “in the more distant past” and therefore that the present king must be considerably later than Galba (1979, 125). Rome is the Antichrist because of the conflicting allegiance created among Christians by emperor worship (p. 126). Court then begins the count from Nero, the first emperor to be an Antichrist figure, and concludes that the sixth king who presently reigns is Titus (p. 135). Later the author of Revelation adapts his writings to the time of Domitian, when the pretentions of the imperial cult become ever more extravagant and blasphemous (pp. 137-38).

Yarbro Collins concludes that if the kings are to be considered inclusively, the list must begin with Julius Caesar (see Sib. Or. 5.12-51, 4 Ezra 11-12); Nero would thus be the sixth, contemporary emperor, which would be an impossibility since the legend of the return of Nero after his death is presupposed in the king list (Rev. 17:11) (1984, 58-64). Galba, the sixth if one begins with Augustus, is also an unlikely candidate, because he reigned prior to the fall of Jerusalem; and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is a necessary prerequisite for identifying Rome and Babylon. She concludes that probably the author by some principle selected certain emperors from the list beginning with Gaius, who made such a negative impact upon Jewish writers of his time. Omitting the three short reigns of 69 CE, the sixth and present king becomes Domitian (Yarbro Collins 1984, 64).

Revelation 17, thus, does not give conclusive evidence for the date of the book. The identification of Rome with Babylon and the reference to Nero as returning from the dead argue for a post-70 date; the list of kings does not justify any precision beyond that. The most compelling evidence for dating the book more precisely after 70 CE remains the reference by Irenaeus, who came from Asia Minor and knew Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (d. c. 155 CE). He states that the visions of Revelation were seen “not long ago” but “close to our generation, towards the end of the reign of Domitian” (Iren. Haer. 5.30.3=Eus. Hist. Eccl. 3.18.1).

As we have seen, a date in Domitian’s reign is also compatible with the kings’ list in chapter 17. Some scholars still argue for dating the book shortly after Nero’s death when several people were vying to be emperor; but when the weight of internal and external evidence is taken together, we may conclude with most scholars that Revelation was written sometime in the latter years of Domitian’s reign, that is, 92-96 CE….(taken from “Apocalypse and Empire” by Leonard L Thompson)

[gadam123]

Gadam

YOU ARE MISLEADING, THE BOOK OF DANIEL IS A VERY, VERY PRECIOUS BOOK. AND WITH THE BOOK OF REVELATION, WE CAN THANK GOD FOR GIVING THEM.
YOU WASTE YOUR TIME ENOUGH TO CONVINCE US THAT DANIEL IS NOTHING OF INTEREST FOR OUR TIME, WHILE IT IS ALL THE CONTRARY.

Hope I am not misleading like the so called Endtime predictors like Millerites and SDA who had speculated much on the numerology the Book of Daniel.

[Author]

Posts