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The Bible—from the Prophets through the Gospels and into the Apocalypse—is littered with prognostications and prophecies and timelines. From the time of Jeremiah, the Israelites started counting down to the eschaton, excitedly anticipating the end, having their hopes dashed, rewinding the clock and starting again. Perhaps the real problem with the Parousia is not that the Predictors of the world keep predicting it, but that Christians still expect it. Perhaps the basic issue is just that the Son of Man did not come when he was supposed to, back in the days of the apostles. After all, Jesus had promised his disciples,
“Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power” (Mark 9:1).
He assured them, “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (13:30)—“all these things” apparently including reference to the “Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory”. In light of that promise, he adjured them again and again, “keep alert . . . keep awake . . . keep awake” (Mark 13:33–37), for
“truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:23).
But Jesus did not come back. His coming, his Parousia, was significantly delayed. As we will see, the fact that “this generation” did pass away before the Son of Man returned created concerns for some early Christians. But in successive centuries, the Church found a way to move ahead, cycling between promises that Jesus’ return was just around the corner and a more tranquil contentment with the fact that the religion was doing well, wherever its founder might be.
On the margins, cranks and “prophets” kept leading laity into the wilderness to await Jesus’ return, but the respectable clergy and the proper scholars moved on, and for the most part, set aside that irksome delay of the Parousia, patiently nodding their heads and intoning the truisms that “no one knows the hour or the day” and “with the Lord a day is like a thousand years” (2 Pet. 3:8). Jesus’s apocalyptic buzz grew increasingly soft…
The Failure of Prophecy in the New Testament:
Prophetic revision is nothing new. The highly selective use of texts by Harold Camping and others has ancient parallels. Indeed, the New Testament carefully chooses to ignore preceding material in its
eschatological thinking as well. The New Testament, for instance, promises an ever-superior eschatological kingdom and refuses to see the non-arrival of that kingdom as reason to despair of its coming.The generating center of New Testament eschatology is, of course, the kerygma ascribed to Jesus. But as we have already seen, Jesus promised the establishment of the kingdom of God within a generation. This prediction fared no better than other Jewish ones, as there was a mass exodus from Jerusalem around the time that most of Jesus’ generation expired.
Paul
Yet, in the middle of the first century, the Apostle Paul himself, lacking the benefit of hindsight, thought that the end had drawn nigh, that the second coming of Christ in judgment was just around the corner.
He encouraged the Corinthians to radically re-orient their conduct and perspective because the world, as they knew it, would very soon cease to exist.The appointed time has grown short (ὁ καιρὸς συνεσταλμένος ἐστίν); from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none . . . and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away. (1 Cor. 7:29–31)
Paul thought there had been a significant enough change in the proximity of the Parousia that the Corinthians should make major alterations to their lifestyles. The epistle to the Romans evinces a similar perspective.
“You know what time it is,” he says, “how it is now the moment for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we became believers; the night is far gone, the day is near” (Rom. 13:11–12;
similarly, see Phil. 4:5).On the one hand (as conservative commentators have hastened to underscore), the linearity of time means that the church would necessarily be “nearer” to the second coming than when they converted, irrespective of how far off the Parousia might be. On the other hand, an interval of 1,900 years certainly is hard to square with the assertion that “the night is far gone, the day is near,” even allowing a good deal of flexibility in the metaphor.
Indeed, it is on the basis of his expectation of Jesus’ imminent return that Paul promises the Romans,
“The God of peace will shortly (ἐν τάχει) crush Satan under your feet” (Rom. 16:20).
Paul aims to animate the piety and integrity of the Romans with the encouragement that they will not have to endure Satan’s attacks much longer, insofar as the final judgment of Satan would soon vindicate the Roman believers. Still, had the Roman Christians known that they would not witness Satan’s overthrow before they all died, Paul’s promise would have proven a cold comfort.
In brief, Paul’s exhortations in 1 Cor. 7:29–31 and Rom. 13:11–12, 16:20 invoke and indeed logically depend upon his assumption that Christ will return within the lifetimes of at least some of his contemporaries. But, to be frank, the terminology of soon, quickly, and near seems today to be impossible to reconcile with the fact that two thousand years have elapsed. Even if one wants to construe Paul’s
expectation of the nearness of the end relative to the entire length of the exile, the return of Christ has proven to tarry three-times longer than the exile itself did. That’s nearly twice the interval between Jesus
and the Davidic monarchy. “Soon” it was not. No amount of appeal to imminence and uncertainty can account for the fact that the delay of Christ proportionally dwarfs the entirety of the exile.Revelation
Paul was not the only New Testament author to be premature in promises of the world’s end; the book of Revelation seems to have been similarly embarrassed. In the 17th chapter of John’s Apocalypse, the seer has a vision of a woman riding on a beast with seven heads and ten horns. The woman is a great whore, drunk on the blood of the saints, and across her forehead is scrawled the moniker “Babylon” (Rev. 17:1–4). She is a thinly veiled cipher for Rome, in which the seer (writing late in the first century CE) perceived the culmination of Satan’s forces in the world. An angel interprets the seer’s vision of the beast, explaining:
“The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. (Rev. 17:9–11)
Thus, he confirms that the woman represents Rome, the city on seven hills. The angel further exploits the imagery of the seven heads by averring that they also refer to rulers of the empire. He explains that the seer and his contemporaries are living in the time of one of the final kings, represented as number six in the sequence. They can expect but one or two more kings to come before the great Roman Empire is shattered (Rev. 17:15–18:24) and the final wicked ruler, along with his client kings (represented by the ten horns), is struck down by Jesus at his Second and Terrible Coming (Rev. 19:11–21). Like Daniel before him, the seer portrays the final consummation of all things as just a stone’s throw in the future, just on the horizon, just a ruler or two down the road. Little did he know that after Domitian (or whoever the seer’s contemporary emperor may have been), more than three dozen emperors would ascend and topple from Rome’s throne, after which Diocletian would take his turn and start beheading Christians all around the Mediterranean.
2 Peter
Nonetheless, as time went on, the Church had to resign itself to the fact that, though they had scattered the seeds of the kingdom, the only fruit they had harvested were eschatological lemons. Undaunted, they set about to make lemonade. Thus, the author of 2 Peter challenged those made skeptical by the non-occurrence of the eschaton.
“But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed”. (2 Pet. 3:3–4, 8–10)
Here, one can see that the door of the second coming was swung wide open and left ajar, so that Christ could walk through in his own good time. But walk through it, 2 Peter insisted, he will. No amount
of delay could sour the anticipation. And so, Christian eschatological hope fell in lock-step with the interpretive strategies of their Jewish predecessors, expecting the end at any moment, irrespective of the
myriad of reasons Christians had to give up their eschatological optimism.Did Paul Change His Mind? – An Examination of Some Aspects of Pauline Eschatology
1. Points on which scholars say Paul changed his mind – Discrepancy in details of events to occur before the parousia:
Romans 9-11 may be compared to 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. It seems that in the latter there is a somewhat pessimistic picture of events due to take place before Christ’s return – life will get more difficult, a rebellion will take place and a ‘lawless one’ will be revealed (v. 2) who will engage in various wicked acts and deceptions (w. 9-10) before Christ destroys him (v. 8).
However, in Romans 9-11, there is a rather more optimistic picture of events before the parousia. There is a positive view of the number of people to receive salvation, and in particular Israel’s rejection of her Messiah is not final, and indeed ‘all Israel will be saved’ (11:26).
2. Did Paul expect the parousia within his lifetime, or after his death?
It would seem that in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Paul expected the parousia to come quickly, so quickly that it would take place before his death. In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-1 7, Paul twice uses the expression, ‘We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord’, which may be taken to mean ‘we Christians who survive until the parousia’. A similar idea may be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:51f., where the ‘we’ that is emphasised in verse 52b (‘we shall be changed’) indicates that Paul placed himself among the survivors at the parousia.
However, in Paul’s later epistles, it seems that he no longer expected to be alive at the second coming of Christ, but rather to die before it took place. Verses such as 2 Corinthians 4:12 (‘death is at work in us, but life in you’), 5:1, 8 (‘we know that if the earthly building we live in is destroyed … we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord’) are said to reflect this way of thinking, as well as Philippians 1:21, 23, where Paul speaks of dying as ‘gain’ and of his desire to ‘depart and be with Christ which is far better’. So now the apostle considers death before the parousia to be a real possibility, a perspective he did not seem to have prior to 2 Corinthians, and he now thinks that the parousia will no longer take place in the proximate future.
3. Discrepancy regarding the time at which the Christian receives the resurrection body:
When did Paul think that believers would receive their resurrection body? Two passages which give information on this matter are said by some scholars to be inconsistent with each other. Thus in 1 Corinthians 15, it is clear that believers do not receive their resurrection bodies until Christ returns – see verses 22-26 (the order of the resurrection of the dead taking place is first Christ, then at his coming, those who belong to Christ – verse 23), and 5 1-52 (the dead will be raised imperishable at the last trumpet, i.e. at Christ’s coming, and then receive the resurrection body) – compare also 1 Thessalonians 4:14ff.
However, in 2 Corinthians 5, verse 1 seems to say that it is at the moment of death that the heavenly body is received – there is no gap between death and the parousia during which the believer is disembodied. It is only by receiving the resurrection body at death that this state of nakedness will be avoided (v. 3). So for the individual Christian, it is at death that they will receive the building that God has provided, as soon as the present physical body is destroyed.
4. What is the intermediate state of the Christian dead?
In his earlier epistles, Paul seems to have described this state as one of ‘sleep’, thus an unconscious intermediate state. Christ will return to raise sleeping, unconscious believers to life again. This appears to be reflected in verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 15 (‘concerning those who have fallen asleep in Christ’); 5:10 (‘whether we are awake or asleep’) and 1 Corinthians 15:18, 20, 51.
However, two sets of verses in Paul’s later letters seem to give rather a different picture of the apostle’s view of the intermediate state: 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (‘away from the body and at home with the Lord’) and Philippians 1:21-23 (‘to die is gain … to depart and to be with Christ’). These verses seem to indicate that when believers die, they go immediately into the presence of Christ without there being any state of unconsciousness or ‘sleep’ at all.
5. The nature of events preceding the parousia in 1 and 2 Thessalonians:
In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10, it seems that the parousia will come suddenly and unexpectedly – like ‘a thief in the night’, whereas in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, it is clear that certain events have to take place before Christ returns (the rebellion, the appearance of the lawless one, etc).
6. Future/realised eschatology in respect of the believer’s resurrection with Christ:
It seems clear that the resurrection is a future event in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 and Romans 6:4f. Colossians 3:1-4, however, seems to talk about resurrection as an event that has already taken place in the believers’ lives (‘you have been raised with Christ … you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God’). Is there at least a different perspective on resurrection at this later stage in Paul’s life?
Hello brother Gene, the above are few arguments on Paul’s Parousia. More to come on 2 Thes 2….
Adam……I believe it is “impossible” to understand , the book of revelations , without properly understanding Rev 17, and The key that unlocks It is there.
Rev 17:7…..And the messenger said unto me, wherefore did you marvel? I will tell you the “mystery” of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads (risings) and ten horns.Now pay close attention, because this time dates the prophesy.
Rev 17:8…..The beast that you saw “was” (past tense) and is not (present tense) and shall (future tense) ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundations of the world, when they behold the beast that was and is not, and yet is.The beast that was and is not at the time of this prophesy is Satan the devil, he was placed into the bottomless pit at the start of the Sixth kingdom on this earth, and that time dates this prophesy to be at the end of the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s. but there is even more
Rev 17:9….And here is the mind which as wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains (or risings) on which the woman (Babylon) sitteth.
Rev 17:10….And there are (present tense) seven kings or ( kingdoms) : five are fallen (past tense) one is (present tense Sixth kingdom) and the other is not yet come (at the time line of this prophesy ) and when he comes (the seventh Babylon kingdom) he must continue a short space. (3 1/2 years)
Rev 17:11…..And the beast that was (past tense) and is not (Satan) even he is the eighth, and is of the Seven (was part of all seven Babylon kingdoms of this earth) and will go into perdition.
Rev 17:12…..And the ten horns you saw, are ten kings, which have received no kingdom “as yet”; but receive power as kings one hour with Satan. This all takes place at the end of the thousand year rule of Jesus and the Saint’s, right at the end of that Sixth world ruling kingdom on this earth.
So the time line shows John was transported in time to the end time period of the millennium rule . That is the kingdom “that is” , shown in the “timeline’.MORE PROOF , THE SIX KINGDOMS MENTIONED IN DANIEL
Dan 2:32 ….This images head was of fine Gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and thighs of brass, (33) His legs of iron, his feet part iron and part of clay.
These are the five mentioned kingdoms
1….Head of Gold……………………….king Nebuchadnezzar…….Babylon Empire
2….Breast and arms of Silver….. ..king Cyrus, Dryus, …………Medo-Persian Empire
3…..Belly and thighs of brass…….King Alaxander………………..Greek Empire
4……Legs of iron………………………Julis Caesar…………………….Roman Empire
5……Feet of iron an Clay…………….Present day nations, mixed, Strong nations but are
not in agreement with each other. So they do not act As one single empire, but still operate under the Babylon system of rule, ‘a usury system of rule’ .buy and sell for gain , just as he original Babylon system worked, so it is today.6….now-the Sixth kingdom
Dan 2;34…..You saw till a stone was cut without hands, which smote the ‘image’ upon his feet that were of iron and clay and break them in pieces .(35), Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors: and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, (nation) , and filled the whole earth.
THIS IS THE SIXTH KINGDOM of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s.
Tie Daniel 2;32-36 with Rev 17, correctly and you should easily see how it all easily fits .
peace and love to you all and yours………gene
seeds of life
During the first centuries of the Christian era there was some reluctance to accept the authenticity of the book to the Hebrews as part of the biblical canon. Today, two thousand years later, the main theme of the book – perfection of character – continues to bother some Christians. Having not yet experienced the power of the gospel, it seems to them impossible that God could have on this earth a group or a body of believers who conquer as Christ conquered, who reflect perfect beauty like a mirror. of the character of Christ, that character which is distinguished by the negation of self. They assume that as long as the body of Christ is made up of people with a fallen or sinful nature, there will be no possibility of developing perfect character.
For them, the book to Hebrews presents a disturbing challenge: Over and over again we read that that perfection of consciousness which the symbol system could not bring, the ministry of Christ in the true sanctuary, which has as its end the perfection of the character of his people offer them abundantly (5:14; 6:11, 19; 10: 1, 14; 11:40; 13:21). How does he achieve what humanly seems so impossible? Through his priestly ministry. In this sense, the book is also unique in the New Testament. It is only in him that he explicitly appears as High Priest.
Understanding the office of “priesthood” poses certain problems for modern man. It is easier for us to see him as Comforter, Master, etc. But we read in Hebrews 3: 1: “Consider the apostle and high priest of the faith that we profess, Jesus.” A priest is, in a way, the opposite of a prophet. The latter represents God before men, while the priest is the representative of man before God. This is why the mediator between God and men must be “Jesus Christ man”. Hebrews chapter 1 presents Jesus as God. Chapter 2 as a man. His full identification with us gives him the legitimate right to represent us and intercede on our behalf.
What does his priesthood mean in practical terms? It means that “we have not a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses; on the contrary, he was tempted like us in all things, without committing sin” (4:15). Seeing that “being always alive to intercede” for us (7:25), we can approach him with confidence, sure of obtaining mercy, to be helped in our needs when we need it (4:16 ). At all times, we can confidently count on “the One who can save you from falling and make you appear before his glory blameless and in joy” (Jude 24). We can do as Abraham, who did not doubt but gave glory to God by believing, fully convinced that the Lord had power to fulfill what he had promised, so his faith was imputed to him for righteousness (Romans 4:20 to 22). God had not said to Abraham: “Taking into account your limits, walk in front of me, and do the best you can”. No. God said to him, “I am Almighty God. Walk before me, and be blameless” (Genesis 17: 1). And Abraham believed.
The book in Hebrews sets out the “new and living road” which will bring the plan of salvation to the human race (10:19 to 22). The book of Hebrews takes into account that “yet a little, a little while: he who is to come will come, and he will not tarry” (10:37). And the book of Revelation presents us with the certainty that Jesus WILL HAVE a people on earth who will respond to the pull of his cross, who will accept his ministry of “perfection”, who will repent deeply and who will be prepared for his second coming. (Revelation 7: 1 to 4; 14: 1 to 5 and 19: 7 to 9). Will we be you and I among this people? It is the intense desire of all heaven. Is that also holding him?
J.R.W.
Hello brother Gene, than you so much for posting on this new thread on “Parousia of Jesus”.
You: The beast that was and is not at the time of this prophesy is Satan the devil, he was placed into the bottomless pit at the start of the Sixth kingdom on this earth, and that time dates this prophesy to be at the end of the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s. but there is even more.
Me: I find your interpretation on Rev 17 is some thing new as you are comparing the beast with Satan the devil. I hope you have gone through my posts on this thread. I am presenting here that the NT writers developed the idea of Parousia of Jesus right from Jesus himself towards the end of first Christian century.
Here are few arguments on Rev 17
Revelation 17:4-5
Babylon the great, the mother of Harlots and of the abominations of the earth = indicates the key to understanding this extended metaphor. Who or what is Babylon? Historically, there have been three possibilities: Rome, Jerusalem or the ancient city of Babylon. This harlot is tagged the mother of harlots. The fact that the term Babylon is a part of the phrase that includes the term mystery argues against a literal interpretation at this point. The ancient city of Babylon is not the author’s intended meaning at this point. To say that Babylon refers to the ancient city of Babylon completely ignores the context and the nature of apocalyptic literature. To explicitly name this ancient city as the future recipient of God’s wrath because of its dealings with God’s holy people contradicts the nature of apocalyptic literature. The city would know of its future judgment and attempt to punish the people of God prematurely.
There is no biblical evidence that ancient Babylon had a right relationship with the true God of heaven. There is no sense in which ancient Babylon is a “harlot” with respect to the true God in heaven. Moral, political or religious harlotry demands a previous right relationship with the one true God.
Revelation 17:9-10
The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings = is the first attempt by the author to explain how the scarlet beast “was and is not and will come.” First, the author explains the meaning of the seven heads. The seven heads are seven mountains. Seven hills as a designation for Rome is substantially verified in ancient literature. That Daniel 2 and 7 depicted Rome as the eschatological antagonist cannot be debated. These two facts have led many to conclude that Rome is the object of John’s vision with seven of her kings. However, this is not the case. Mountains are used here to speak of strength. For the woman to be seated, she needs a place of strength. A person’s head is not normally associated with strength.
During the eschatological end, John depicts the woman sitting on a composite scarlet beast that is composed of seven kings. John indicates that the seven mountains are seven kings. Now, Daniel depicts kings and their kingdoms as interchangeable. To speak of one is to speak of the other. However, it is not clear that John does the same thing here.
It appears strange for John to explain, but not really explain what he means. Seven heads equal seven mountains, which equal seven kings. Taking Scripture at face value, John has defined the seven heads. However, most interpreters want to add another step to John’s equation.
Seven heads = seven mountains = seven kings = seven kingdoms. Their basis for this conclusion is based on Daniel’s interchangeable reference to kings and kingdoms. I think seven kings is seven kings just as John said.
Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come = explains the seven kings. John indicates that five kings have fallen. “Have fallen” is a figure of speech that refers to a person’s death. Exodus 32:28 states, “So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men…fell that day.” Like wise, I Samuel 4:10 states, “So the Philistines fought and Israel was defeated…and the slaughter was very great, for there fell of Israel thirty thousand foot soldiers.” Equally, 2 Samuel 1:19 and 1 Chronicles 5:10 also speak of men falling (dying). In each case, death occurred by violent means. The phrase one is indicates that one of the seven kings that the eschatological harlot will ride was contemporaneous with John. The other has not yet come is a prophetic prediction by John concerning the seventh and final king. This king’s duration will be short.
Revelation 17:11
The beast which was and is not = continues the angel’s explanation of the restored beast. A critical question at this point concerns the time referent. That is, is John describing the past or the future? Some have taken the phrase which was and is not to refer to the future. However, if this line of reasoning is correct, then one should have expected John to say, “the beast which will be and will not be and will come.” John wrote, “the beast which was and is not.” This must mean that the beast was not at the time John was writing.
Where was the beast at the time of John’s writing? He must have been in the abyss!
Is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven = is very important. This explains the mystery concerning the “was, and is not and will come” composite scarlet-beast. The composite scarlet beast is a king. He eventuates from the seven. John’s point is this: there will be seven beast/kings and one of them will service twice upon the face of the earth.
Revelation 17:12
The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom = begins the angel’s explanation of the “horns.” In the tradition of Daniel 7:7-8. Horns represent kings/kingdoms. Daniel indicated that ten kings would eventuate from the fourth beast kingdom/Rome. During the time of those kings another king would arise and subdue three of the ten. The ten kings rule concurrently. In the Revelation, John saw ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom. The ten kings of Revelation 17 are not the same as the ten kings of Daniel 7.
But they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour = makes a distinction between the ten kings. They do not have kingdoms, but they have authority to be kings. These kings will rule with the composite beast for one hour. One hour refers to a specific time appointed by God (Matt 24:36, 44, 50; and 25:13) and is not to be taken as a 60-minute time period.
Revelation 17:13
(1) These have one purpose, and (2) they give their power and authority to the beast.
1. These have one purpose = indicates unity among the ten kings.
2. They give their power and authority to the beast = signals the intent of the kings. All that they represent is given to the beast. They do not have kingdoms, but they must have assets that the beast can utilize for his goal.
Revelation 17:14(1) These will wage war against the Lamb, and (2) the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and (3) those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.
1. These will wage war against the Lamb = indicates the purpose or mind of the ten kings. They are united in their attitudes toward the Lamb. The attack of the ten kings against the Lamb is not specially detailed, but they must gather with the nations to Armageddon.
2. The Lamb will overcome them = signals defeat for the ten kings and the beast. The title “Lord of lords and King of kings” is applied to the Lamb here and the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19:16.
3. Those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful = is an unusual occurrences in the Revelation. Called (klatos) and chosen (eklektos) occur only here in the Revelation. Both words occur together in Matthew 22:14. These are clearly the saints of the ages. It is not explicitly stated what the role of the Lamb’s accomplices is.
Revelation 17:15
And he said to me, (1) “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
1. The waters which you saw where the harlot sits = continues the angelic interpretation of the harlot’s judgment. The waters are people, multitudes, nations and tongues. Revelation 17:9 declares that the harlot sits on seven king/kingdoms. Thus, we can say that the harlot is carried by a universal segment of the population of the earth.
Revelation 17:18
(1) The woman whom you saw is the great city, (2) which reigns over the kings of the earth.
1. The woman whom you saw is the great city = begins the final explanatory item of the bowl-carrying angel. The identity of the woman is given. She is the great city. Most commentaries in their attempt to force Revelation 17 to refer to the ancient city of Rome ignore, diminish, or generalize the textual details to support their conclusion.
Revelation 11:8 clearly identifies “the great city” as Jerusalem. The fact that the great harlot is called a city argues strongly for this conclusion. Revelation 17:5 clearly shows that Babylon is not referring to the literal city of ancient Babylon. Therefore, there is nothing in Revelation 17 that disqualifies Jerusalem as a solution for this text.
2. Which reigns (literally, has a kingdom) over the kings of the earth = is the final defining strait for the woman. The way the woman rules over the kings of the earth is through the Beast. This makes her a harlot. She prostitutes herself with Antichrist(Beast) when she rightly belongs to God.
I hope this may help you.
Hi Berean,
You: seeds of life
During the first centuries of the Christian era there was some reluctance to accept the authenticity of the book to the Hebrews as part of the biblical canon. Today, two thousand years later, the main theme of the book – perfection of character – continues to bother some Christians. Having not yet experienced the power of the gospel, it seems to them impossible that God could have on this earth a group or a body of believers who conquer as Christ conquered, who reflect perfect beauty like a mirror. of the character of Christ, that character which is distinguished by the negation of self. They assume that as long as the body of Christ is made up of people with a fallen or sinful nature, there will be no possibility of developing perfect character.Me: I think you have posted this on wrong thread….
The Last Days
According to preterists “the last days” refers to the time between the advent of John the Baptist and the destruction of Jerusalem. This “eschaton” refers not to a time in the distant future, but to a time that is imminent. Gary DeMar summarizes the relevant passages of the New Testament with emphasis on the radical nearness of the events predicted:
Some cataclysmic event was on the horizon, and the first-century church was being warned to prepare for it. There is no getting around this language and the ultimate conclusion that many of the verses that many believe are yet to be fulfilled have been fulfilled. . . .
1. “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:22–23, emphasis added).
2. “Jesus said to [the high priest], ‘You have said it yourself [that I am the Christ, the Son of God]; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Matt. 26:64, emphasis added).
3. “And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to waken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed” (Rom. 13:11).
4. “The night is almost gone and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armour of light” (Rom. 13:12, emphasis added).
5. “For the form of this world is passing away” (1 Cor. 7:31, emphasis added).
6. “Now these things happened to [Israel] as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come” (1 Cor. 10:11, emphasis added).
7. “Let your forbearing spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near” (Phil. 4:5, emphasis added).
8. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer” (1 Pet. 4:7, emphasis added).
9. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door” (James 5:8–9, emphasis added).
10. “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18, emphasis added).
11. “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place . . .” (Rev. 1:1, emphasis added).
12. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near” (Rev. 1:3, emphasis added).
13. “I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown” (Rev. 3:11).
14. “And he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his bondservants the things which must shortly take place” (Rev. 22:6, emphasis added).
15. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book” (Rev. 22:7, emphasis added).
16. “And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (Rev. 22:10, emphasis added). Compare this verse with Daniel 12:4, where Daniel is told to “seal up the book until the end of time.”
17. “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done” (Rev. 22:12, emphasis added; cf. Matt. 16:27).
18. “He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus” (Rev. 22:20, emphasis added).
These passages and many others like them tell us that a significant eschatological event was to occur in the lifetime of those who heard and read the prophecies.
Adam……what I was trying to show is that Rev 17 is the place where we can time date the prophesy, when he said “five are fallen, “one IS, I tied that into, Daniel 2, which lists the progression of the future “Babylon ” kingdoms, to the Sixth kingdom, which is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Resurrected Saint’s.
Daniel clearly shows that the Babylonian type kingdoms progress unto the Return of Jesus, who will set up a kingdom which will inflect a deadly wound on the Fifth Babylon type of kingdoms, and will set up the “Sixth” world ruling kingdom on this earth. That is clearly shown in Daniel 2:34-35
My point was that John time-dates it, by saying “the one that “IS” , to the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s . John was transported in time to the day of the Sixth world ruling empire of Jesus and the Saint’s.
Adam, this is why it says in Rev 17;9…”And here is the mind that has wisdom”
Most think that John was talking about the time he was given the prophesy, which is, the one that ‘IS” as , the Roman Empire, the 4th Babylonian type, of Empire, but he was not, he was “transported” in time to the Sixth Kingdom period. This is what is meant by “here is the mind that has wisdom” . No one can get the understanding of Revelations without understanding that first.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
The Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:3–11)
Paul introduces the man of lawlessness in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians. Let no one deceive you by any means;
“for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his
own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming. The coming of the lawless one
is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie . . .
(2 Thess. 2:3–11).Paul’s man of sin or lawlessness is often linked to or identified with the antichrist. If indeed both names refer to the same thing, then Paul has shed considerable light on the nature and character of the antichrist.
First, the man of sin is identified as a man. This would tend to eliminate institutions from being the antichrist, except when an institution can be embodied in a single individual. The Reformers commonly
considered the papacy as the antichrist, an institution that could be embodied in a particular pope. Likewise some have seen the government of the Roman Empire as the antichrist, which could be embodied in a specific emperor.Second, the man of sin’s lawless behavior has a strong religious dimension. He is “the son of perdition” who not only “opposes” God but also “exalts himself above . . . God” (2 Thess. 2:3–4). Through a kind of self-apotheosis, this man claims for himself nothing short of deity. Paul does not call him “antichrist” here, but Paul does describe his activity in terms of being both against Christ and a substitute for Christ. Paul says the man of sin “sits as God in the temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4). This suggests that this arrogant person will appear when the temple is in place, though conceivably the term temple merely designates a religious locale. John Calvin, for example, had no problem seeing this as an allusion to the church. “This one word [in the temple of God] fully refutes the error or rather stupidity of those who hold the Pope to be the vicar of Christ on the ground that he has a settled residence in the Church, however he may conduct
himself,” Calvin writes. “Paul sets Antichrist in the very sanctuary of God. He is not an enemy from the outside but from the household of faith, and opposes Christ under the very name of Christ.”Third, Paul comments on when the man of lawlessness will appear. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that the “day of Christ” had not yet come. Paul said that day would not come until the apostasy (or falling away) occurs and the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2:3). What the apostle says next is the subject of great debate regarding the timing of the man of sin’s appearance. Paul indicates that the “restrainer,” whom his readers can identify, is present (2 Thess. 2:7). This one who restrains has been identified by modern commentators as the Roman government, Paul himself, and the Holy Spirit.
The latter is a favorite theory of some Dispensationalists who see in this text a thinly veiled reference to the rapture That is, the rapture must occur before the antichrist is unleashed. For the antichrist to operate without restraint, the Holy Spirit must be first removed. For this to occur the Christian community must be physically removed from the earth, because as long as Christians are present in the world the Holy Spirit who indwells them is likewise present.
Whoever the restrainer is, he must be taken out of the way before the lawless one can be revealed. Paul does employ temporal terms similar to John’s when he declares that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work” (2 Thess. 2:7). Paul then states that “the lawless one” will be consumed by the Lord and destroyed “with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:8). These statements imply that, though the man of
lawlessness was already at work, he was not yet clearly manifest to Paul’s contemporaries.This man’s work would continue until Christ came and he was consumed. Again the question of time-frame becomes critical. Was Paul speaking of a first-century person who would soon be made manifest and then be destroyed by the judgment-coming of Christ in AD 70? Or was Paul speaking of one who, though already at work in the first century, would not be fully revealed until sometime near the end of history as a precursor to the coming of Jesus?
Hello brother Gene,
You: Adam……what I was trying to show is that Rev 17 is the place where we can time date the prophesy, when he said “five are fallen, “one IS, I tied that into, Daniel 2, which lists the progression of the future “Babylon ” kingdoms, to the Sixth kingdom, which is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Resurrected Saint’s.
You: I appreciate your concern on the interpretation of Rev 17. Yes I can see that you have tied it to Dan 2. But the beasts spoken in Rev 13 and Rev 17 must be compared with the four beasts spoken in Dan 7. The statue in Dan 2 was the introduction but the details were given in Dan 7 & 8. John the writer of Revelation certainly linked these prophecies of Daniel to his visions that are detailed in Rev 13 & 17. Daniel’s visions were talking about Babylonian kingdoms as you rightly mentioned. But the context of Revelation is quite different as John was talking about the beast pertaining to his time period. I feel he was linking the beast and it’s horns with Roman kingdom and it’s kings. You mentioned about Sixth kingdom as Messianic that is Jesus’ and his saints. But I differ here with you as the messianic kingdom is still in future as for Jewish interpretation. It will be a physical kingdom and not just spiritual kingdom as the most Christians interpret it.
You: Daniel clearly shows that the Babylonian type kingdoms progress unto the Return of Jesus, who will set up a kingdom which will inflect a deadly wound on the Fifth Babylon type of kingdoms, and will set up the “Sixth” world ruling kingdom on this earth. That is clearly shown in Daniel 2:34-35
Me: I differ here again with you stating that Daniel’s Sixth Kingdom is Jesus’ kingdom which inflict a deadly wound on the Babylonian fifth kingdom. Rev 13 clearly talks about a king or cruel ruler and not a kingdom. So please read my post on Rev 17 for more details.
You: My point was that John time-dates it, by saying “the one that “IS” , to the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s . John was transported in time to the day of the Sixth world ruling empire of Jesus and the Saint’s.
Me: The beast which was and is not = continues the angel’s explanation of the restored beast. A critical question at this point concerns the time referent. That is, is John describing the past or the future? Some have taken the phrase which was and is not to refer to the future. However, if this line of reasoning is correct, then one should have expected John to say, “the beast which will be and will not be and will come.” John wrote, “the beast which was and is not.” This must mean that the beast was not at the time John was writing.
Here we should understand that the beast is not the kingdom but is a king who was not present at the time of John. The beast can not be compared with Messianic kingdom of saints as the beasts are cruel rulers spoken in the prophetic visions of Daniel or Revelations. So I can not go for the Sixth kingdom as of Jesus’ kingdom.
You: Most think that John was talking about the time he was given the prophesy, which is, the one that ‘IS” as , the Roman Empire, the 4th Babylonian type, of Empire, but he was not, he was “transported” in time to the Sixth Kingdom period. This is what is meant by “here is the mind that has wisdom” . No one can get the understanding of Revelations without understanding that first.
Me: Again I am not for this interpretation stating the beast as kingdom. Yes certainly he was talking about Roman emperors or kings. There are seven kings in this series and the Seventh himself becomes Eighth. Please understand Revelation 19 talks about defeat of these beastly kings by the one who is seated on the white horse(Lamb) and his armies. Only in Rev 20 John talks about the millennial rule of the saints but not before that. So please think over on your interpretation of the sixth kingdom and its period.
Hello brother Gene, I feel that Daniel’s visions are not about Revelation visions. I will explain these things in my future posts.
Adam……This is what I believe 2th2 was saying, The man of sin is not a real person, it is a “false IMAGE” of Jesus being a God, Created by the “apostate” Churches. That is why Paul said the “mystery” of iniquity was already at work, in the church is what meant, in his day it was beginning to form. it was a “lie” about Jesus himself. That was turning the man Jesus into a God, it was beginning to form then, but never came to fulfillment unto the council of Nica in 325 AD. When Jesus was declared a God.
There has Been only one “man” who ever took his seat in the “true temple of God” And that man was Jesus Christ himself. Who sit there unto this very Day.
In what way does it turn Jesus himself into a man of sin, it. Does not turn the real Jesus into a sinner, what it does is turn the “IMAGE” , OF HIM INTO A MAN OF SIN.
HOW? , BECAUSE, making The “IMAGE ” of Jesus, appear as a God, breakers the commandments of God, “you shall have “NO GOD’” BESIDES ME” ,
Get it Jesus itself isn’t the one doing it, it’s fallen Christianity, the APOSTATE CHURCHES , that have did that, and Jesus himself out of his own mouth will abolish that false teaching , about him , at his return.
Therefore I submit to you there is no real “man of Sin”. It’s just a false “IMAGE” about Jesus.peace and love to you and yours Adam. ……..gene
Gene
The man OF sin anti type OF Juda Iscariot
WE find HIM in Revelation 13
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
God bless
Hello brother Gene,
You: Adam……This is what I believe 2th2 was saying, The man of sin is not a real person, it is a “false IMAGE” of Jesus being a God, Created by the “apostate” Churches. That is why Paul said the “mystery” of iniquity was already at work, in the church is what meant, in his day it was beginning to form. it was a “lie” about Jesus himself. That was turning the man Jesus into a God, it was beginning to form then, but never came to fulfillment unto the council of Nica in 325 AD. When Jesus was declared a God.
Me: But Paul clearly mention Son of perdition or Lawless one as person as per 2 Th 2:
3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.[c] 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God
The divinity of Jesus in the NT was already had been assigned by its writers like Paul and his followers. We may not consider this so called false image of Jesus as Son of perdition or lawless one. Council of Nicaea is later development.
You: There has Been only one “man” who ever took his seat in the “true temple of God” And that man was Jesus Christ himself. Who sit there unto this very Day.
Me: This is a wild allegation which I may not agree because Paul clearly mentions this as future event in verse 6
6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes.
You: In what way does it turn Jesus himself into a man of sin, it. Does not turn the real Jesus into a sinner, what it does is turn the “IMAGE” , OF HIM INTO A MAN OF SIN.
HOW? , BECAUSE, making The “IMAGE ” of Jesus, appear as a God, breakers the commandments of God, “you shall have “NO GOD’” BESIDES ME” ,
Me: But the NT writers already assigned divine functions to the risen Jesus with God in creation process and salvation mechanism. He also shares glory with God in doxology.
You: Get it Jesus itself isn’t the one doing it, it’s fallen Christianity, the APOSTATE CHURCHES , that have did that, and Jesus himself out of his own mouth will abolish that false teaching , about him , at his return.
Therefore I submit to you there is no real “man of Sin”. It’s just a false “IMAGE” about Jesus.Me: You may be right in saying that it is a system of apostacy that may be the reason behind imagining the son of perdition or lawless one as Anti-christ. But we can not say that it is just a false teaching. I think he may be a real person as Paul and other NT writers mentioned.
Peace and love…..Adam
Adam……Like wise, there is no real Antichrist “person”, the term Antichrist applies to many. It was coined by the apostle John and written only three times in scriptures, nearly alway tied to the idea of a disbelief in, the human flesh existence of Jesus . So there was a problem developing in the church that dealt with the belief of Jesus’ actual “flesh” and blood existence, as being “exactly as we came to be.
There were those who were in the Church who were truing to true Jesus away from being a flesh and blood human, exactly as we are , who would need to be “anointed ” in order to be a “messiah” or true servant of God .
What they were teaching was that Jesus was himself already a true God, and therefore did not need to be “anointed” because he was already a God himself, and he came from the Pelora of the God’s. They preached Jesus was only “disguised” as a flesh and blood human being, but really wasn’t.
So John dubbed them as Antichrist’s or Anti-anointers , theses were the Gnostic’s of John and Paul’s day. These were the first who started to corrupt the true identity of Jesus Christ from man, to a “PREEXISTING GOD”, this is what eventually took over nearly all Christianity, as it is today.
So you see Adam, the term Antichrist is not an individual , but the “belief” of individuals, as to the identity of who Jesus is and was, there are millions of Antichrists today. Only a “few” are not, “for wide is the way that leads to destruction, and many go in great thereof, but narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it”.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
Hi brother Gene thanks for your patience in explaining the concepts on Antichrist. I can appreciate your thoughtful post above. You may be right in saying that Antichrist is not individual person but an ideology. We need more details on this idea. I am posting some history behind Antichrist ideology;
Antichrist
Antichrist, the polar opposite and ultimate enemy of Christ. According to Christian tradition, he will reign terribly in the period prior to the Last Judgment. The Antichrist first appeared in the epistles of St. John (I John 2:18, 22; I John 4:3; II John 1:7), and the fully developed story of Antichrist’s life and reign is found in medieval texts. As applied to various individuals and institutions for nearly two millennia, Antichrist and precursor of Antichrist have been, and remain, terms of the most intense opprobrium The Christian conception of Antichrist was derived from Jewish traditions, particularly The Book of Daniel in the Hebrew Bible. Written about 167 BCE, it foretold the coming of a final persecutor who would “speak great
words against the most High and wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws” (7:25). Scholars agree that the author of Daniel was alluding to the contemporary Hellenistic ruler of
Palestine, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who attempted to extirpate Judaism. But because Antiochus was not
named, later readers could apply the prediction in Daniel to any persecutor. Early Christians applied it to the Roman emperors who persecuted the church, in particular Nero (reigned 54–68 CE).The four books of the New Testament that fuelled Christian belief in Antichrist were the first two epistles of John, the Revelation to John, and the second epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians. The first three of these were written near the end of the 1st century CE; the last was written either by the apostle Paul shortly after 50 CE or by one of Paul’s immediate disciples some 20 or 30 years later. Neither II Thessalonians nor Revelation use the term Antichrist, but both works refer to a coming persecutor who is evidently the same person. The first epistle of John introduces an important distinction between “the” Antichrist who will come and the many antichrists who are already active in the world. This distinction not only enabled believers to denigrate contemporaries as “antichrists” without having to label a single individual as “the” Antichrist but also allowed them to identify the “body of Antichrist” as a collectivity existing in the present but destined to have its day of triumph in the future.
Nevertheless, early Christians tended to emphasize the coming of the one great Antichrist. The Revelation to John refers to this figure as “the Beast from the Abyss” (11:7) and “the Beast from the Sea” (13:1). In the most sustained account of his appearance, II Thessalonians 2:1-12, he is called “the man of sin” and “son of perdition.” He will come at a time of a general apostasy, deceive people with signs and wonders, sit in the temple of God, and claim to be God himself. Finally, he will be defeated by Jesus, who will destroy him by “the spirit of his mouth” and “the brightness of his coming” (2:8). Because even II Thessalonians is sketchy about the details of Antichrist’s person and the nature of his reign, a succession of biblical commentators and pseudonymous apocalyptic writers from the era of the Church Fathers and the early Middle Ages began to provide the missing features. Their work was integrated into a brief treatise in the 10th century (c. 954) by a monk from Lorraine, Adso of Montier-en-Der, in a letter to Queen Gerberga of France. Adso’s letter became the standard medieval reference work on Antichrist. In the 13th century
it was partially supplanted by several chapters on Antichrist in Hugh Ripelin’s extremely popular handbook, Compendium theologicae veritatis (c. 1265; “Compendium of Theological Truth”). Although it was more orderly, Ripelin’s account differed from Adso’s only in minor details.The medieval view of Antichrist communicated by Adso, Ripelin, and a host of other writers rested on the principle that Antichrist is the parodic opposite of Christ in all things. (Antichrist literally means “opposed to Christ.”) Thus, as Christ was born of a virgin by means of conception by the Holy Spirit, so Antichrist will be born of a whore by means of conception by a diabolical spirit. Although opinions differed as to whether Antichrist’s father will be a man or a demon, in either case Antichrist will be, as commonly noted in the Middle Ages, “full of the devil” from the time of his conception. Both Christ and Antichrist are born of the Jews, but Antichrist will be born of the tribe of Dan—“the viper in the road” (Genesis 49:17) —rather than the tribe of Judah, and in Babylon, not Bethlehem. Like Christ, Antichrist will grow up in obscurity and begin his open “ministry” at age 30, gaining followers by giving signs and performing miracles. The signs and miracles once more are polar opposites of Christ’s, because Antichrist’s supposed miracles will be only tricks.
Antichrist’s triumphant reign (never clearly distinguished from the start of his ministry) will last for three and a half years. Like Christ, Antichrist will come to Jerusalem, but, as the opposite of Christ, he will be enthusiastically hailed and revered by the Jews. During his reign he will rebuild the Temple and sit on the throne of Solomon in a sacrilegious and hideous inversion of just priesthood and just kingship. He will convert the rulers of the earth to his cause and persecute Christians dreadfully. All those who resist his wiles will be tortured, and —as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:21—there will be “great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now.” The two great prophets Enoch and Elijah, who
never died but were spirited away to the earthly paradise, will arrive to preach against the tyrant and comfort the elect, but Antichrist will slay them. At the end of the allotted three and a half years, however, Antichrist will be destroyed by the power of Christ, whereupon, after a very brief interval, there will come the Last Judgment and the end of the world.One important medieval thinker who departed substantially from the received teachings about Antichrist was the 12th-century Calabrian monk Joachim of Fiore. Joachim formulated a view of successive past and future persecutions of the Christian church that inspired him to propose the appearance of a succession of “antichrists” (e.g., Nero, Muhammad, and Saladin) before the arrival of the great Antichrist. As for the great Antichrist, according to Joachim, he will not be a Jew from “Babylon” but rather the embodiment of the worst evils arising out of Joachim’s own society, pre-eminently the crimes of heresy and oppression of the church. Lastly, since Joachim expected the coming of a wondrous millennial era on earth between the death of Antichrist and the Last Judgment, he found himself obliged to foretell the coming of another
enemy of God, a “final Antichrist.” Although Joachim was vague about the nature of this last antagonist of God, he referred to him as “Gog,” implying that the final Antichrist will be allied with, or identical to, the enemy forces of Gog and Magog, which will appear to do final battle with the saints after the millennium and before the Last Judgment (Revelation 20: 7-9).The expectation of the imminent reign of Antichrist in the later Middle Ages encouraged the belief among many that his forerunners were already in the ascendant or, indeed, that Antichrist himself had arrived in the person of a given ruler or pope. Such beliefs were attached in particular to the “antipapal” emperor Frederick II (reigned 1212–50) and to a persecutor of ecclesiastical dissidents, Pope John XXII (reigned 1316–34). The tendency to identify a hated contemporary ruler as Antichrist in some cases outlasted the Middle Ages. The Russian tsar Peter the Great (reigned 1689–1725), for example, was named Antichrist by
his opponents, the Old Believers. Even in the 20th century some commentators identified Benito Mussolini, the Italian fascist dictator, as Antichrist because of his attempt to revive the Roman Empire.Nevertheless, beginning in the 16th century, the fixation on Antichrist as a coming or present terrible individual gave way to the view of Antichrist as a collective body of evil. This position had been accepted in the abstract by some medieval theologians, but it was made concrete and popular by Martin Luther, who insisted that the institution of the papacy, rather than any given pope, was Antichrist. Modern Protestants have characteristically preferred to conceive of Antichrist as whatever resists or denies the lordship of Christ, and Roman Catholics have become less inclined to identify Antichrist as a specific coming individual.
Vestiges of the medieval Antichrist tradition can be found in contemporary popular culture, as in Hollywood films such as Rosemary’s Baby (1968) and The Omen (1976) and its sequels. The view of Antichrist as a diabolical institution is also reflected to some extent in the superstition that credit cards and electronic bar codes mysteriously mark innocent people with Antichrist’s sign, the number 666 (Revelation, 13:18).
Adam…..it all boils down to the word (it self) and how John applied it, in the text.
There two , ways ……One is that of a single person, as in being against the“anointed one ” meaning against the person “anointed” by God.
Two, as in against the “Anointing ” itself , of the person.
I chose number two, as explained in what I last wrote to you. The Gnostic’s who John address as those who went out “from us” which shows they were not really “of us”.
Why? , because they were teaching a different Jesus, a PREEXISTING God Jesus, not a Jesus, who came into his only existence as a flesh and blood human, just as we are, who, would have, “had”, to be “anointed ” to become a true servant of the, “only” true God”. Exactly as any other human being would have to be also, Even us.
Adam the word contextually means “against” the Anointing of the flesh man, Jesus. The teaching of the Gnostic’s which eventually corrupted the whole church, as it is to this very day, There exists today, millions of Antichrist’s who preach and teach Jesus as their PREEXISTING God.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
Hello brother Gene thanks again for your post on this thread.
You: I chose number two, as explained in what I last wrote to you. The Gnostic’s who John address as those who went out “from us” which shows they were not really “of us”.
Why? , because they were teaching a different Jesus, a PREEXISTING God Jesus, not a Jesus, who came into his only existence as a flesh and blood human, just as we are, who, would have, “had”, to be “anointed ” to become a true servant of the, “only” true God”. Exactly as any other human being would have to be also, Even us.
Me: The question here is what was Jesus before becoming flesh. John in his Gospel and Epistles certainly claimed some sort of pre-existence for Jesus but this is not the thread for such discussions.
The Fact of Pre-existence
To speak of a pre-incarnate state of Christ is to speak of a state of existence prior to His human birth. The concept of Christ’s pre-existence is certainly not a Johannine novelty. Although more oblique, there are references in the Synoptics which imply or affirm pre-existence (cf. Matt. 11:3; Mark 12:6; Luke 7:19). Likewise throughout Pauline writings this doctrine receives strong emphasis (note especially 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-7; Col. 1:15-20; Eph. 1:10,14).
But the concept is nowhere more fully expostulated than in the fourth evangelist. Throughout the Gospel, even when he is developing other themes, there is the background thought of Jesus sharing a unique
relationship with the Father from eternity. In the Prologue Christ is depicted as eternally existent with God (1:1, 2). When the world was called into being He was there, identical in essence with God (the Word
was God”), yet personally distinct (the Word was with God”). It is impossible to miss the connection between John 1:12; 1 John 1:1-3, and Genesis 1:1. He is spoken of as having descended “from above II (3:21, 31) because He “was” from above (8:23). He co-existed with the Father “before Abraham” (8:58) and recalled His former glorious relationship in Heaven before the world was framed (17:5, 24).Of course we have argued these scriptures on Preexistence thread many times. I just mentioned them for reference here. There is certainly ambiguity in John’s writings about Jesus personality.
Adam…….what you are referencing as text supporting the preexistence of Jesus only comes out that way if you force the text to say that. Example, Jesus said to those Pharisees “before Abraham I am “. The trip is in the use of the word “before”, where does it say “I “existed ” at, This requires some searching before applying the word “before’” , you have to understand that the Jews of that day and eve this day, believed that their past relationship as descendants of rAbraham was paramount in there relationship with God. Even John the Baptist admonished the Jews about this, saying, God could raise up these stones as sons unto Abraham if he so chose to.
John as well as Jesus fully understood the Jew tie to Abraham was a major stumbling block to them, they viewed Abraham as far more important then they were.Jesus was simple telling those Pharisees, he was ” before Abraham in importance to them”. Now if it actually said “I was “ALIVE” , or “EXISTED” before Abraham then you would have a point. But yo see it specifically does no say that, that thought is added by the reader, but not actually written in the text. So the only way to make it to say Jesus said he was a live is to alter the actual text and force t to say what in fact it t actually does not specifically say.
The same thing applies to John 1, as concerning the “Word” . God and is word are one and the same thing, just as you and your words are. It’s all about “forcing our text” to say what in fact it is not saying.
The author of that book you sent me was simple believing what modern Christianity teaches and assumes it to be truly what the original writers meant ,so he goes about pitting one writer against another, assuming they were all contradicting each other, There are some contradictions but it the fault of improper interpretations brought on by Trinitarian translators, not by the ‘original’ writers of the inspired text. IMO
ADAM we must always remember this foremost, “brethren you have “NO” need of a teacher, for the Spirit (of truth) teaches you all things ” , Adam the spirit of truth is the “cognition of truth” it is the “earnest ” given us by God the Father . Therefore it says, “that even the very elect would be deceived, “if it were possible “. Those who have the “Spirit of truth in them, can “NOT” be deceived > Adam don’t turn to the world to get truth, that path goes no where, but brings only confusions. Listen to the Spirit that has been given us by God the father, through Jesus Christ our lord.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
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