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Hi Keith,
(The following was taken from another thread and brought over here so we could get to the bottom of it.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30) Can you list a SCRIPTURE, (as opposed to your overactive imagination), that clearly tells us Jesus always existed? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46) Yep, John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16, 17 .
Keith, can you show me specifically where the words “Jesus is from eternity” are in these scriptures you answered with…………or at the very least, which words you think imply this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46) Mike I will ask you again… Can you give me one unambiguous scripture that shows Jesus was created!
Yes Keith. Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”.mike
Confusion, confusion, confusion.
Lets just create five thousand threads and plaster them all over the forum.
You didn't even give a link where it came from and you ask the same quesiton in this thread I a have answered in another thread.
Mike I am not chasing you all over the place with all these open threads. I have 2 debates with t8 and 1 with kathi and it looks like a hundred with you.
So here is the deal if you want me to respond to these questions then it will be one at a time and I suggest you compile them in the debates thread where there will be no outside distractions and delete all these open threads.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,19:04) Hi Keith, (The following was taken from another thread and brought over here so we could get to the bottom of it.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30) Can you list a SCRIPTURE, (as opposed to your overactive imagination), that clearly tells us Jesus always existed?
Hi MikeAll things came into being through Him, and ”apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being”.
Notice the big highlighted part Mike? John makes it doubly clear that “all things” means “all things” because he clarifies his statement with…
”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.
Do you see that little word “Nothing”? It is the Greek word “heis” which is the Greek numerical number “1”.
In other words John is saying very clearly… “…Apart from him not ONE (heis) THING came into being that has come into being. Therefore Jesus was before all things including time, space and matter. John clarifies that this does not include the Father and Jesus in verse 1 and 2 when he clearly says the same Word was with the Father in the beginning of all things.
…all things were created by him, and for him: ”And HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist”. Col 1:16, 17
Since Time, Matter, and Space is included in the ”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.
Then Jesus was before time meaning eternity past!
WJ
Hi Keith,
1 Cor 15:27 says “all things”, but then explains that “all things” doesn't include “GOD HIMSELF”.
Hebrews 2:8 says that God left “nothing” that He did not put under Jesus. We can assume that the “nothing” in this verse also does not include “GOD HIMSELF”.
So the words “all” and “nothing” are only as reliable as the context allows them to be. If it says “nothing” came into being without Jesus, then we must assume that since Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, that the word “nothing” means AFTER CHRIST HIMSELF WAS CREATED. And the “all” means ALL EXCEPT CHRIST HIMSELF, WHO OBVIOUSLY WASN'T CREATED THROUGH HIMSELF.
That's how I understand it, as it aligns with ALL the scriptures. You are entitled to disagree, but I'm done with this thread.
Thank you for your time.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,21:06) Hi Keith, 1 Cor 15:27 says “all things”, but then explains that “all things” doesn't include “GOD HIMSELF”.
Hebrews 2:8 says that God left “nothing” that He did not put under Jesus. We can assume that the “nothing” in this verse also does not include “GOD HIMSELF”.
Hi MikeSo what is your point?
John 1:1, and 2 makes it clear and obvious the “NOTHING” that came into being without him (Jesus) does not include Jesus or the Father.
So clearly Jesus was there in the beginning of “All Things”.
The thing you keep avoiding and tyring to spin out of is John says ”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.
Obviously that means everything except the Father and Jesus.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,21:06)
So the words “all” and “nothing” are only as reliable as the context allows them to be.
Hi MikeTrue, but do you see any part of the creation in the context of John 1:1, 2?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,21:06) If it says “nothing” came into being without Jesus, then we must assume that since Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, that the word “nothing” means AFTER CHRIST HIMSELF WAS CREATED. And the “all” means ALL EXCEPT CHRIST HIMSELF, WHO OBVIOUSLY WASN'T CREATED THROUGH HIMSELF.
You know what they say about assumptions don’t you? But listen to your own words, you said…“Jesus was the beginning of the creation. of God…”.
Earlier you have said that Jesus is part of the “creation of God” but if he is the “Beginning of the creation” and all of the creation came through him then how can he be part of it. Besides the word beginning does not necessarily mean “a beginning”.
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “originator of God’s creation: Rev 3:14 NET
The Net has it…
54tn Or “the beginning of God’s creation”; or “the ruler of God’s creation.” From a linguistic standpoint all three meanings for ἀρχή (arch) are possible. The term is well attested in both LXX (Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13) and intertestamental Jewish literature (2 Macc 4:10, 50) as meaning “ruler, authority” (BDAG 138 s.v. 6). Some have connected this passage to Paul’s statements in Col 1:15, 18 which describe Christ as ἀρχή and πρωτότοκος (prwtotoko”; e.g., see R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 124) but the term ἀρχή has been understood as either “beginning” or “ruler” in that passage as well. The most compelling connection is to be found in the prologue to John’s Gospel (1:2-4) where the λόγος (logos) is said to be “in the beginning (ἀρχή) with God,” a temporal reference connected with creation, and then v. 3 states that “all things were made through him.” The connection with the original creation suggests the meaning “originator” for ἀρχή here. BDAG 138 s.v. 3 gives the meaning “the first cause” for the word in Rev 3:14, a term that is too philosophical for the general reader, so the translation “originator” was used instead. BDAG also notes, “but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the ᾿Αρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160-77).” Such a meaning is unlikely here, however, since the connections described above are much more probable.AT Robertson says…
The beginning of the creation of God (h arch th ktisew tou qeou). Not the first of creatures as the Arians held and Unitarians do now, “the originating source of creation through whom God works Colossians 1:15 Colossians 1:18 , a passage probably known to the Laodiceans, John 1:3 ; Hebrews 1:2 , as is made clear by Revelation 1:18 ; Revelation 2:8 ; Revelation 3:21 ; Revelation 5:13 ).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,21:06) That's how I understand it, as it aligns with ALL the scriptures. You are entitled to disagree, but I'm done with this thread.
I see, so in other words Rev 3:14 is one of those scriptures that you try to prove Jesus had a beginning when in fact he was there with the Father in the beginning and “Not One Thing came into existence without him”. John 1:1-3 debunks your Jesus was created theory?If John said “Nothing came into being without him then does that mean “ANYTHING else” (other than the obvious the Father and Jesus), came into being without him?
One last thing Mike.
You have claimed that Revelation 1:8 is speaking of the Father even though I have debunked that…
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8
Even if you say it is the Father does this mean that the Father also had a beginning?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,15:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,21:06)
So the words “all” and “nothing” are only as reliable as the context allows them to be.
Hi MikeTrue
Enough said then.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,15:49)
But listen to your own words, you said…“Jesus was the beginning of the creation. of God…”.
Earlier you have said that Jesus is part of the “creation of God” but if he is the “Beginning of the creation” and all of the creation came through him then how can he be part of it.
Jesus is the “beginning” of the creation of God simply because he was the first thing God ever created. We're told that all [other] things were created BY God THROUGH Jesus.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2011,20:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,15:49)
But listen to your own words, you said…“Jesus was the beginning of the creation. of God…”.
Earlier you have said that Jesus is part of the “creation of God” but if he is the “Beginning of the creation” and all of the creation came through him then how can he be part of it.
Jesus is the “beginning” of the creation of God simply because he was the first thing God ever created. We're told that all [other] things were created BY God THROUGH Jesus.mike
MikeThe first part of your statement is false and merely inference on your part with no scriptural backing.
Do you have a scripture anywhere that says Jesus was created?
The second part of your statement admits Jesus with the Father co-created Time, Matter and Space and that makes him God because it means he was always with the Father in eternity before time.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,09:46) Do you have a scripture anywhere that says Jesus was created?
Hi Keith,That question has been asked and answered many times.
Micah 5:2, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14, Proverbs 8:22, Hebrews 2:6.
WJ
Quote The second part of your statement admits Jesus with the Father co-created Time, Matter and Space and that makes him God because it means he was always with the Father in eternity before time. Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I (Christ)was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I (Christ)was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I (Christ)was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he (God)made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I (Christ)was there when he(God) set the heavens in place,
when he(God) marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he(God) established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he(God) gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his(God) command,
and when he(God) marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I(Christ) was the craftsman at his(God) side.
I (Christ)was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God almighty) whole world
and delighting in mankind.look at verse 30, being a craftsman would this imply doing nothing?
PierrePierre
Why are you interupting the debate?
You need to edit and delete your post because it is in the “debate” section!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,13:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,09:46) Do you have a scripture anywhere that says Jesus was created?
Hi Keith,That question has been asked and answered many times.
Micah 5:2, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14, Proverbs 8:22, Hebrews 2:6.
MikeThat is pure inference, for not one of those scriptures say Jesus was created.
WJ
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