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Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2011,09:16) Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?
See, this is my whole point. I would never say “Jesus created.”I haver always said “God created through Jesus.”
Just as Solomon for example supplied the means, God supplied the means. Jesus used God's holy spirit to accomplish all this, just as he would later do while on earth when performing miracles.
Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:27) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2011,09:16) Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?
See, this is my whole point. I would never say “Jesus created.”I haver always said “God created through Jesus.”
Just as Solomon for example supplied the means, God supplied the means. Jesus used God's holy spirit to accomplish all this, just as he would later do while on earth when performing miracles.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
All things could not come to be unless it was by Jesus,
And nothing apart could ever exist without it being by Jesus.
This passage doesnt mention God, or that God created through Jesus, In fact its quite the opposite. The passage reflects that life as we know it is created through Jesus.Its like saying: “all things were created through God” does that mean someone used God to create things?
of course not.
So this biblcal reference gives clear understanding that Christ created and gives credit to him.“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
The world obvisouly didnt know Jesus, whom the world was created by.
Another passage that doesnt say that God created through someonelse or viseversa.“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
Another passage that gives clear understanding that All things were created by HIM, not that someone else was using him, or created through him.So your left with two choices
1. That both Jesus and God created the world since credit is given to both.
2. That God and Jesus are one and the same.The Strange thing is that You state that Jesus used “Gods holy spirit to accomplish this” yet thats not sciptural? nor is any credit given to the holy spirit in the creation process whatsoever.
Quote (david @ May 23 2011,08:41) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,19:44) Quote (david @ May 21 2011,16:51) I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?
Scripture does not expressly declare it, but my assumption is at the commencement of the creation week. Since they are the “hosts of heaven” (Luke 2:13) they must have been brought into existence with or following the creation of heaven.You alone are the LORD you have made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them you give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. (Neh 9:6)
Tell me what you think.
Hi Paul.I believe that the scripture that says the morning stars shouted joyfully at the creation of the earth was referring to the angels. I believe they were created before physical heavens and earth were created.
But I no longer remember exactly why I asked you that, but based on your response, I'm pretty sure the argument is mute.
You wrote “mute” instead of “moot”, how cute.Quote (david @ May 23 2011,08:45) The angels were created long before man’s appearance, for at the ‘founding of the earth’ “the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause.”—Job 38:4-7.
“long before”? What makes you say that?Quote (david @ May 23 2011,08:50) I don't know why I originally asked that of you paul. Moving on:
“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
Just stepping outside of this conversation for a moment, I just wonder what you think the “through” means in these verse. Is it not odd that it always puts the “through” in there?
If I was saying that X created something, I would say it was created “by” X, (as Col 1:16 first does), but here, we have everything being created “through” Jesus.
What does this mean?
I think I've answered this question a few times already in this thread. Yehsua was the actual executor of the creation event.BTW, don't miss this part of your own quote…
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,03:22) I have no problem with the “alone” scriptures. They confirm 1 Cor 8:6, which says all things came FROM God alone. Did all things come FROM Jesus? Or did they come FROM God alone? Also, which PERSON in your Godhead do you think said he created ALONE?
YHWH alone is the Creator. Not YHWH and a creature sidekick. You have not attempted to reconcile Is 44:24 and Job 9:8 with your agency theory. Can you at least try please?Quote Paul, who ALONE created you? Did that single CREATOR create you THROUGH other creatures, such as your parents?
My parents provided the raw materials but did not cause the cells to start dividing, my organs to form, my heart to start beating. It is not my parents who are currently upholding the whole created order (refer Heb 1:3), now is it Mike.Quote Now if you only had a scripture saying Jesus was our “CREATOR”, you'd be well on your way.
John 1:3, Joh 1:10, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16, Heb 1:10 etc etcQuote There are many saviors mentioned in the scriptures. Are they all “God Almighty”? 
That's a weak point.
Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.These seem to say that YHWH, our only true God, SENT someone else to be the savior of the world.
I asked you who YOUR Redeemer is.Quote Paul's “intent” can be clearly confirmed by his many mentions of Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God.
Quote me one verse where Paul declares Jesus is lesser being in His nature. Because that's the important detail, right? Surely there will be one there for you…..Quote And do you seriously think that after acknowledging the existence of “many gods and many lords”, Paul's intent was to say there was LITERALLY only ONE of each? Is that scriptural, Paul?
Yes, and indeed there are many gods – to the pagan! Read the whole passage carefully and in context. Paul was addressing the dilemma christians faced when offered meat sacrificed to idols. His answer highlighted that their concern was not valid as the pagan lords and gods are not true Deity.You see Mike Cor 8:5-6 is a compare and contrast of true God and false pagan gods, not of Yeshua and the Father. It makes no sense for Paul to contrast God and a creature with the pagan panthion. But makes perfect sense if Yeshua and the Father are deity to us.
The different titles assigned to the Father and Yeshua actually preserve the notion of deity (both are appropriate appelatives for this) while at the same time make a distinction of personality. The Father is not OUR God to the exclusion of Yeshua and Yeshua is not OUR Lord to the exclusion of the Father.
Quote Try again. Nothing in your post changes the fact that the prayer in Acts 4 distinguishes Jesus as SOMEONE OTHER THAN the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. So if Jesus is “Co-Creator”, then that prayer shows a contradiction in scripture. Is that your stand – that scripture contradicts itself?
Only if you read monarchical monotheism into the text.Hi Paul
Excellent post! The points you make are consistent with the context of all the scriptures. Mike has been shown this before, however you always seem to make things more clear!
Blessings Keith
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 22 2011,18:01)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
All things could not come to be unless it was by Jesus,
And nothing apart could ever exist without it being by Jesus.
This passage doesnt mention God, or that God created through Jesus, In fact its quite the opposite. The passage reflects that life as we know it is created through Jesus.Its like saying: “all things were created through God” does that mean someone used God to create things?
of course not.
So this biblcal reference gives clear understanding that Christ created and gives credit to him.
Hi DennisonExactly. The word “dia” translated “through and by” are the same and it makes no difference.
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
The above scripture says all things are “through (dia)” God or Jesus (take your pick). So does that mean that all things come “through” someone other than God?
Blessings WJ
Guys,
Roman 11 no where at all mentions Jesus except by inference in verse 16.
Therefore verse 36 is exclusively aligned to YHVH, God Most High.
WJ
it is Jesus = trough him =RO 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
RO 11:27 “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINSthis was Gods will that it happen this way
Pierre
Quote (Pastry @ May 22 2011,13:01) Quote (t8 @ May 22 2011,10:56) Possessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
t8 Almighty God is divine. What does that mean? He is immortal and will never die. Jesus on the other hand was not divine before He came to earth, to die for us. Now he is and will never die again.
That's the way I understand it…..Peace Irene
Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 23 2011,09:16) Quote (david @ May 23 2011,03:04) Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
God created through Jesus,Tell me how?
And when Jesus Created,
How did he Create life?
God created all through the Logos. The Logos is Jesus Christ.Quote (david @ May 22 2011,16:27) See, this is my whole point. I would never say “Jesus created.” I haver always said “God created through Jesus.”
Hmmmm…………..just like the scriptures say. Good job, David.No scripture ever says “Jesus created” anything, unless you count the whip he “fashioned” out of cords.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
YHWH alone is the Creator.
Correct. And YHWH is the “God” and “Sovereign Lord” that Peter and John prayed to in Acts 4. They realize that He ALONE created all things, and therefore credited Him ALONE with this in their prayer. Notice that Jesus is listed as someone other than the One they prayed TO, and therefore someone other than the One who created all things.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
You have not attempted to reconcile Is 44:24 and Job 9:8 with your agency theory. Can you at least try please?
Yes I have. I know that God created everything alone. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He created me alone, but did that THROUGH my parents.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
I asked you who YOUR Redeemer is.
I have many. My brother. Jesus. And his God. I wouldn't have been saved if not for my brother doing something I won't get into right now. And I can't possibly be saved through any name but Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ would have no power to save even a hair on his own head if not for the One that sent him to save us.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
Quote me one verse where Paul declares Jesus is lesser being in His nature. Because that's the important detail, right? Surely there will be one there for you…..
“God consists of three persons within one Godhead”. Now THAT would be a very important detail for all to know, so surely there will be a scripture that says this, no?
I won't play the “nature” game with you. I am the same nature as my father, but not the same being as him.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
Yes, and indeed there are many gods – to the pagan!
Really? Was Moses a “pagan” when he spoke of how YHWH executed judgement on the gods of Egypt? Paul doesn't ever even HINT that he is speaking of “so-called gods” or “false gods”. He simply says there are many gods and many lords BOTH IN HEAVEN and on earth. Who are these gods that Paul claims are in heaven? Perhaps the gods that God assembles with in Psalm 82:1?But let's talk “lords”. Do you think that the being of YHWH/Jesus is LITERALLY the only “lord” who ever existed? YES or NO?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
The different titles assigned to the Father and Yeshua actually preserve the notion of deity (both are appropriate appelatives for this) while at the same time make a distinction of personality. The Father is not OUR God to the exclusion of Yeshua and Yeshua is not OUR Lord to the exclusion of the Father.
This is poppycock! There are no words in 8:6 to even HINT at this conclusion. Plus, it is solidly debunked any time Paul mentions the God OF our Lord Jesus Christ. God Almighty does not have a God, Paul. Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,03:22) Try again. Nothing in your post changes the fact that the prayer in Acts 4 distinguishes Jesus as SOMEONE OTHER THAN the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. So if Jesus is “Co-Creator”, then that prayer shows a contradiction in scripture. Is that your stand – that scripture contradicts itself?
Only if you read monarchical monotheism into the text.
What? Address the point in a straightforward way, please. Show me which words include Jesus in the One prayed TO, making him the One who created all things. If you can't, then just admit it.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2011,14:36) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2011,02:54)
YHWH alone is the Creator.
Correct. And YHWH is the “God” and “Sovereign Lord” that Peter and John prayed to in Acts 4. They realize that He ALONE created all things, and therefore credited Him ALONE with this in their prayer. Notice that Jesus is listed as someone other than the One they prayed TO, and therefore someone other than the One who created all things.
Couch it how you like Michael, but the stark fact remains that you affirm the creation of heaven and Earth came about “through” a creature, which is a blatant contradiction of Isa 44:24 and Job 9:8. These passages make no allowance for your agency theory. If your theology does not fit with biblical revelation – change it.Quote Yes I have. I know that God created everything alone. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He created me alone, but did that THROUGH my parents.
You just contradicted yourself.Quote I have many. My brother. Jesus. And his God. I wouldn't have been saved if not for my brother doing something I won't get into right now. And I can't possibly be saved through any name but Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ would have no power to save even a hair on his own head if not for the One that sent him to save us.
Despite the avalanche of evidence in the NT you can't bring yourself to admit that Yeshua is your Redeemer. Sad.The truth is the NT writers had no hesitation in declaring Yeshua as their Redeemer and their crediting was not sheepish and qualified as your was. Yeshua was a volitional being, not a puppet on a string. He deserves the credit for His work of redemption and He also deserves credit for His work of creation. Dig your heels in but in the end your knee will bow too Michael.
Quote “God consists of three persons within one Godhead”. Now THAT would be a very important detail for all to know, so surely there will be a scripture that says this, no? I won't play the “nature” game with you. I am the same nature as my father, but not the same being as him.
I'm not surprised you won't play that game. You have nothing.BTW, you and your Father are human beings, right?
Quote Really? Was Moses a “pagan” when he spoke of how YHWH executed judgement on the gods of Egypt?
Question for Michael: are these true or false gods?Quote Paul doesn't ever even HINT that he is speaking of “so-called gods” or “false gods”. He simply says there are many gods and many lords BOTH IN HEAVEN and on earth.
You're right, Paul doesn't HINT that he is speaking of so-called gods, he plainly states it.For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, (1 Cor 8:5, NASB)
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), (1 Cor 8:5, NIV)
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), (1 Cor 8:5, NKJV)
There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords (1 Cor 8:5, NLT)
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” (1 Cor 8:5, ESV)
If Paul was contrasting the one true God with other true deities he would hardly ascribe the phrase “so called” to them, now would he?
As I said – read the passage carefully and in context.
Quote Who are these gods that Paul claims are in heaven?
These kind…..“However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods (Gal 4:8, NASB)
Quote But let's talk “lords”. Do you think that the being of YHWH/Jesus is LITERALLY the only “lord” who ever existed? YES or NO?
Read 1 Cor 8:5-6 carefully and pay attention to the use of the phrase “to us”, then rethink how you should answer this…Quote This is poppycock! There are no words in 8:6 to even HINT at this conclusion. Plus, it is solidly debunked any time Paul mentions the God OF our Lord Jesus Christ. God Almighty does not have a God, Paul.
Indeed the Father is the God of Yeshua. As a man born under the law (Gal 4:4) He was subject to all of it. Had he not had His Father as His God he would have made Himself a trangressor and, consequestly, invalidated Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Of course this says nothing of his divine nature (Heb 1:3, Col 2:9).Quote What? Address the point in a straightforward way, please. Show me which words include Jesus in the One prayed TO, making him the One who created all things. If you can't, then just admit it.
I don't dispute that the Father made the Hea
vens and the Earth, I just don't agree that He did this to the exclusion of Yeshua and on this point neither does scripture. I said earlier in this thread if Acts 4:24 was the sum total of the detail we are given of the creation event, Who achieved it and how….your would have a solid point. BUT IT IS NOT.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,05:24) Quote Yes I have. I know that God created everything alone. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He created me alone, but did that THROUGH my parents.
You just contradicted yourself.
Hi PaulHe does that a lot. Another example of this is he says there is “Only One True God” but then says “there are other true Gods”.
These are Mikes very own words (EMPHASIS MINE)…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,09:27) Scripturally speaking, is THE FATHER the ONLY TRUE GOD? Yes. But then he says…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49) No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally. He says there is “Only One True God” but then admits…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god” (changed to [a] true god), BUT I AGREE THAT HE IS. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god (changed to a god), or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. And…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:05) Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god“. Is anyone confused yet?
If the scriptures that say there is “Only One True God” are not to be taken literally, then what in the Bible is?
Blessings Keith
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