- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,22:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,23:00) And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
I'm sorry, when again was the Spirit begotten by God?
Mike,
It wasn't 'begotten' but it was brought forth and sent. Do you have trouble with that idea? You were talking about the term 'brought forth' meaning that there was time when whatever was brought forth didn't exist. You do agree that the Holy Spirit of God was eternal, don't you?Kathi
Sure. Now show me where the Spirit was “yalad”, which means “brought forth as in childbirth”. This is the “brought forth” I was referring to.Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,22:02) Mike,
If our human nature began to exist when Adam was created, the Son's divine nature began to exist when His Father's nature began to exist…
No. If our human nature began to exist when Adam was brought forth by the One who brought him forth, then it stands to reason that Jesus' nature also began to exist when HE was brought forth by the One who brought him forth.Kathi, you have NO CLUE what “divine nature” entails. No human being does. So for you to just assume that it entails being “from eternity” is merely wishful thinking on your part.
If you ever list the scripture that teaches us what you claim, I too will believe.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38)
The scriptures I listed are not contradictory for me, but they are for you, that's the point. Trinitarians are quite at ease with the co-crediting of the great works of God to both Yeshua and His Father. Not so for the Arian…..Even more problematic for the Arian are the passages which affirm that YHWH created Heaven and Earth UNAIDED.
I have no problem with the “alone” scriptures. They confirm 1 Cor 8:6, which says all things came FROM God alone. Did all things come FROM Jesus? Or did they come FROM God alone?Also, which PERSON in your Godhead do you think said he created ALONE?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38)
These passage leave no room for your agency theory. YHWH did not use creature to execute the Creation act, YHWH created ALONE. So back to the drawing board…..
Paul, who ALONE created you? Did that single CREATOR create you THROUGH other creatures, such as your parents?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38)
Yeshua is Creator in the same very real sense that He is our redeemer.
Now if you only had a scripture saying Jesus was our “CREATOR”, you'd be well on your way.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38)
Who, according to scripture, is your redeemer. Consult and quote scripture to support your answer.
There are many saviors mentioned in the scriptures. Are they all “God Almighty”?
That's a weak point.
Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.These seem to say that YHWH, our only true God, SENT someone else to be the savior of the world.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38)
Careful. Take this argument to its logical conclusion and you must confess Yeshua is Lord to the exclusion of the Father. It's not legitimate to use this verse to draw a contradistinction between the Father and Yeshua with regard to their respective ontologies. Clearly this wasn't Paul's intent.
Paul's “intent” can be clearly confirmed by his many mentions of Jesus as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God. And do you seriously think that after acknowledging the existence of “many gods and many lords”, Paul's intent was to say there was LITERALLY only ONE of each? Is that scriptural, Paul?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,11:40) The bottom line is this: It is MY understanding that fits in perfectly with ALL of the scriptures. It is YOUR understanding that makes Acts 4 be a contradiction in scripture.
Incorrect, see above.
Try again. Nothing in your post changes the fact that the prayer in Acts 4 distinguishes Jesus as SOMEONE OTHER THAN the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. So if Jesus is “Co-Creator”, then that prayer shows a contradiction in scripture. Is that your stand – that scripture contradicts itself?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,23:43) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,14:57) I believe that when one has as a divine nature as their original and essential nature, their nature always existed. Christians will only partake of divine nature, they will only have the fruits of that nature, not the incommunicable traits like the ability to be everywhere or to have been eternal. Our human nature began in Adam…the Son's divine nature always existed and He did not have a different nature like us and then gain another nature, a divine one. Divine nature was His essential nature, the nature He always had. He became flesh, He didn't become divine…He always was. No one can become divine, not in the way the Father and Son are.
Kathi
Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!
Hi Paul,
Thanks, it is nice to hear that once in a while
And I am so glad that we don't become what we partake in as far as partaking of a meal or I would be a burger and fries right now Many people think that they can do things to become divine like the Father and the Son…that is called a 'works' religion I believe. The Son was divine nature and then became human nature also, without giving up His divine nature.
Kathi
Ireen
No problem, you are not the only one that misspells my name but I can assure you that I haven't been spelling my name wrong. You probably got the wrong spelling from Pierre and Kerwin who misspell it sometimes also. Most of my posts this year have my name at the endBlessings,
KathiQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:43) Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!
Hebrews 2:14 speaks of Jesus “partaking in” human nature. Did not Jesus actually “become” human?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,10:36) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,22:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,23:00) And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
I'm sorry, when again was the Spirit begotten by God?
Mike,
It wasn't 'begotten' but it was brought forth and sent. Do you have trouble with that idea? You were talking about the term 'brought forth' meaning that there was time when whatever was brought forth didn't exist. You do agree that the Holy Spirit of God was eternal, don't you?Kathi
Sure. Now show me where the Spirit was “yalad”, which means “brought forth as in childbirth”. This is the “brought forth” I was referring to.
Mike,
I told you that I didn't say that the Spirit was 'begotten.' Why would you ask me then to show you where it says that the Spirit was yalad?Actually, I know what you are asking
You are wanting me to show you where something was said to be brought forth as an offspring that always existed before they were brought forth as an offspring. That is like me asking you to show me where anyone was brought forth as an offspring that didn't have a male and a female contributing a sex chromosome to them…then you say, see you can't do it, therefore the Son has a mother too. Can you see the flaw to the end of that argument? Conclusion, just because one was brought forth as an offspring who's nature eternally existed…doesn't mean that any others had to be brought forth as an offspring from an nature that eternally existed.
The opposite is true also…just because all humans brought forth as offsprings have nature that was a created nature which did not exist at one point doesn't mean that one offspring that was brought forth with a nature (a nature that wasn't created) had to have not existed at one point.
Everything that is an offspring existed to some extent before they were born.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:43) Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!
Hebrews 2:14 speaks of Jesus “partaking in” human nature. Did not Jesus actually “become” human?
Mike,
He didn't become human like you became human…He became the human with a history of being divine. You didn't have a history of being divine before you became human and no one else has that history either except for Christ. Now He still has the history of being divine and human. It is quite a different story to start out human and then partake of divine nature which is what we hope to be our future history. No person has or will have the history of always being divine nature except the Father and the Son.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,10:41) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,22:02) Mike,
If our human nature began to exist when Adam was created, the Son's divine nature began to exist when His Father's nature began to exist…
No. If our human nature began to exist when Adam was brought forth by the One who brought him forth, then it stands to reason that Jesus' nature also began to exist when HE was brought forth by the One who brought him forth.Kathi, you have NO CLUE what “divine nature” entails. No human being does. So for you to just assume that it entails being “from eternity” is merely wishful thinking on your part.
If you ever list the scripture that teaches us what you claim, I too will believe.
Mike,
you said:Quote If our human nature began to exist when Adam was brought forth by the One who brought him forth, then it stands to reason that Jesus' nature also began to exist when HE was brought forth by the One who brought him forth. Only if you don't believe that the only begotten Son WASN'T a literal Son. I thought you said that you believe in a literal son of God, Mike.
If you believe that the Son was a literal Son, possessing the same nature of His Father, then you will know that the Son has within Him an eternal nature like His Father. Adam was not a literal son with the same nature as the one that brought him forth was he. Adam was not a literal son.
Quote Kathi, you have NO CLUE what “divine nature” entails. No human being does. So for you to just assume that it entails being “from eternity” is merely wishful thinking on your part. Really, I have no clue, do you say that because you have no clue and therefore no human being has no clue? That is not what scripture tells us. It says that we can understand understand this eternal power and divine nature. Here:
Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened
Those who have become futile in their speculations, hmmm, and their foolish heart has been darkened, hmmmm, would say that they do not understand His eternal power and divine nature. Now, do you still want to claim that you do not have a 'clue' what divine nature entails?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,12:51) Mike,
I told you that I didn't say that the Spirit was 'begotten.' Why would you ask me then to show you where it says that the Spirit was yalad?
If you are not saying that the Spirit was “brought forth” with the same meaning that Jesus was “brought forth”, then don't compare the two. Your point was, “Well, the Spirit was also 'brought forth', and it is eternal, right?”That was misleading, considering that you now admit we are speaking of two different meanings of “brought forth”.
All I did was point out to you that it was misleading.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:43) Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!
Hebrews 2:14 speaks of Jesus “partaking in” human nature. Did not Jesus actually “become” human?
Mike,
He didn't become human like you became human…He became the human with a history of being divine. You didn't have a history of being divine before you became human and no one else has that history either except for Christ. Now He still has the history of being divine and human. It is quite a different story to start out human and then partake of divine nature which is what we hope to be our future history. No person has or will have the history of always being divine nature except the Father and the Son.Kathi
My point is the use of the word “partaking”. You and Paul seem to understand it as if our partaking in divine nature means we won't actually be divine. I'm pointing out to you that if that was the case, then Jesus wasn't actually human.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:35) Only if you don't believe that the only begotten Son WASN'T a literal Son. I thought you said that you believe in a literal son of God, Mike.
Kathi, I am a literal son of my father. My human nature began when I was brought forth as a human being – AND NOT BEFORE THAT. Likewise, Jesus' nature began when he was brought forth as the Son of God – AND NOT BEFORE THAT.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:35) Really, I have no clue, do you say that because you have no clue and therefore no human being has no clue? That is not what scripture tells us. It says that we can understand understand this eternal power and divine nature. Here: Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened
Those who have become futile in their speculations, hmmm, and their foolish heart has been darkened, hmmmm, would say that they do not understand His eternal power and divine nature. Now, do you still want to claim that you do not have a 'clue' what divine nature entails?
Read the big words, Kathi. None of us know ALL there is to know about God, or “divine nature”. My point stands: We are all clueless about what “divine nature” really entails. And your claim that it includes “being from eternity” is not supported by any scripture, and is merely your opinion.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,10:36) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,22:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,23:00) And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
I'm sorry, when again was the Spirit begotten by God?
Mike,
It wasn't 'begotten' but it was brought forth and sent. Do you have trouble with that idea? You were talking about the term 'brought forth' meaning that there was time when whatever was brought forth didn't exist. You do agree that the Holy Spirit of God was eternal, don't you?Kathi
Sure. Now show me where the Spirit was “yalad”, which means “brought forth as in childbirth”. This is the “brought forth” I was referring to.
Mike,
I told you that I didn't say that the Spirit was 'begotten.' Why would you ask me then to show you where it says that the Spirit was yalad?Actually, I know what you are asking
You are wanting me to show you where something was said to be brought forth as an offspring that always existed before they were brought forth as an offspring. That is like me asking you to show me where anyone was brought forth as an offspring that didn't have a male and a female contributing a sex chromosome to them…then you say, see you can't do it, therefore the Son has a mother too. Can you see the flaw to the end of that argument? Conclusion, just because one was brought forth as an offspring who's nature eternally existed…doesn't mean that any others had to be brought forth as an offspring from an nature that eternally existed.
The opposite is true also…just because all humans brought forth as offsprings have nature that was a created nature which did not exist at one point doesn't mean that one offspring that was brought forth with a nature (a nature that wasn't created) had to have not existed at one point.
Everything that is an offspring existed to some extent before they were born.
Kathi
Mike,
I didn't mean to mislead but just to point out something that was within the Father was brought forth and was eternal. Why don't you acknowledge the rest of my post, ok.Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,14:54) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,13:38) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,22:43) Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!
Hebrews 2:14 speaks of Jesus “partaking in” human nature. Did not Jesus actually “become” human?
Mike,
He didn't become human like you became human…He became the human with a history of being divine. You didn't have a history of being divine before you became human and no one else has that history either except for Christ. Now He still has the history of being divine and human. It is quite a different story to start out human and then partake of divine nature which is what we hope to be our future history. No person has or will have the history of always being divine nature except the Father and the Son.Kathi
My point is the use of the word “partaking”. You and Paul seem to understand it as if our partaking in divine nature means we won't actually be divine. I'm pointing out to you that if that was the case, then Jesus wasn't actually human.
Mike,
We will never have always been essentially divine in nature and the Son of God was never essentially human in nature, He simply partook of flesh and blood.Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Partaking of the divine nature as our hopeful future does not mean that we will be able to say that we have always been essentially divine. One must be essentially divine IN NATURE to be God. The Father and the Son are and were and will be able to say they are essentially divine in nature.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,15:00) Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:35) Only if you don't believe that the only begotten Son WASN'T a literal Son. I thought you said that you believe in a literal son of God, Mike.
Kathi, I am a literal son of my father. My human nature began when I was brought forth as a human being – AND NOT BEFORE THAT. Likewise, Jesus' nature began when he was brought forth as the Son of God – AND NOT BEFORE THAT.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,13:35) Really, I have no clue, do you say that because you have no clue and therefore no human being has no clue? That is not what scripture tells us. It says that we can understand understand this eternal power and divine nature. Here: Romans 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened
Those who have become futile in their speculations, hmmm, and their foolish heart has been darkened, hmmmm, would say that they do not understand His eternal power and divine nature. Now, do you still want to claim that you do not have a 'clue' what divine nature entails?
Read the big words, Kathi. None of us know ALL there is to know about God, or “divine nature”. My point stands: We are all clueless about what “divine nature” really entails. And your claim that it includes “being from eternity” is not supported by any scripture, and is merely your opinion.
Mike,
Your human nature and my human nature began in Adam and Eve. They are the mother and father of all humans by their possession and passing on that human nature. Your human nature existed well before you…it has been passed on since Adam and Eve. You can understand that, can't you. That is why we are humans…we have the essential human nature and at one point, before Adam, that human nature did not exist. If you have trouble understanding this then I don't think we can get anywhere regarding the concept of nature. Maybe our discussion should go in the direction of what is human nature and divine nature.Also, notice in Romans 1 that eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen through what has been made, i.e. creation. It doesn't say through scriptures but through what has been made since the creation of the world.
What do you know about divine nature when you look at creation Mike? Unless you are an atheist, you understand an intelligent self-existent, eternal being, right? If the OT says that God created the world alone and then we find out that it was the co-efforts as a Father and His Son with their Spirit, then we can conclude that the Father and the Son are together the God that created the world alone with their Spirit. A oneness is often a oneness in unity…a Godhead of Father and Son with their Spirit.
Kathi
Kathi
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,19:44) Quote (david @ May 21 2011,16:51) I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?
Scripture does not expressly declare it, but my assumption is at the commencement of the creation week. Since they are the “hosts of heaven” (Luke 2:13) they must have been brought into existence with or following the creation of heaven.You alone are the LORD you have made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them you give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. (Neh 9:6)
Tell me what you think.
Hi Paul.I believe that the scripture that says the morning stars shouted joyfully at the creation of the earth was referring to the angels. I believe they were created before physical heavens and earth were created.
But I no longer remember exactly why I asked you that, but based on your response, I'm pretty sure the argument is mute.
The angels were created long before man’s appearance, for at the ‘founding of the earth’ “the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause.”—Job 38:4-7.
I don't know why I originally asked that of you paul.
Moving on:
“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
Just stepping outside of this conversation for a moment, I just wonder what you think the “through” means in these verse. Is it not odd that it always puts the “through” in there?
If I was saying that X created something, I would say it was created “by” X, (as Col 1:16 first does), but here, we have everything being created “through” Jesus.
What does this mean?
Quote (david @ May 21 2011,10:48) I think I answered your questions. But if it helps you, imagine that Solomon had a son, which of course he did. Let's say that Solomon created this Son in the normal human way. And then, Solomon decided to create a temple, and so he planned and planned, and got all the materials and would provide the funds to carry it out. But he had his now grown up son actually carry it out. He put his son in charge of his temple construction.
And, despite the son doing the work, yet again, it is his Father who has the credit of building the temple.
(I'm not basing this on what really happened of course. It's just an illustration. “Solomon built the temple.” But we understand what that really means, don't we?
)
Here is the Problem with your example is that its pure speculation based on an example that cant be compared to God.The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ.
We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
So basically can you give an Explaination of how God used his Son to create all living things. feel free to speculate.
Quote We just know that the bible gives credit about creation in the NT to Christ.
Which scripture?Are you talking about the “through” scriptures?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
That's the thing. You say that credit is given to Jesus for creation in the NT, yet you also say “The bible never claims how or in what way that God created THROUGH Christ. “
If God “created” THROUGH Christ, then did Christ create, or was he used to create by God?
There is a clear relationship in how things were created. God created THROUGH Jesus.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
