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Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,06:25) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,03:44) Quote (david @ May 21 2011,16:51) I have a question for you Paul. When were the angels created?
Scripture does not expressly declare it, but my assumption is at the commencement of the creation week. Since they are the “hosts of heaven” (Luke 2:13) they must have been brought into existence with or following the creation of heaven.You alone are the LORD you have made the heavens, the heaven of heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them you give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You. (Neh 9:6)
Tell me what you think.
Hi Paul,
Good post. I have thought the same thing. The pattern for creation for the physical creation was to create the dwelling place before the creatures that dwell there, i.e. the seas before the fish, the dry land before the dry land animals and people, the heavens before the sun and moon. For those who wish to say that the Son was created before 'everything else' need to realize His dwelling place wasn't created before He was, but I don't agree that He was created anyway.I believe that the foundation was being laid on day three when the seas took their place and the dry land was established. Prov 8 says that here:
29When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;30Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,So, the angels had to be there between day two and day three. Day two God established the heavens, the angels dwelling place…day three God established the foundations of the earth.
That's my take on it.
Kathi
Kathithere are to heavens the one made and seen from earth and all the other billions of galaxies and solar systems ,and black holes and what not
Christ was there before that was created as well.
Gene;1;1
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,23:40) Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,05:16) Kathy! Don't know what your point is. I don't know if Jesus was always in the Father, do you??? Do you have a scripture that says so???…You say Jesus was alive before He was begotten, Yes, as a Spirit Being…. That is the way I see it. Begotten means born, and He was born as a Human, that's my point….
But kathy what's the point….. Am I miossing something??? Peace Irene
Irene,
As the Messiah, Son of David, He was born as a human from Mary, that is true but before creation I believe He was born/begotten as the Son of God…we see that in Prov 8.23I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
If He was 'given birth' then I would say that He was within the Father…where else would He be brought forth from…that is why the Father is His Father.
John 17:8
for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me.Bless you,
Kathi
Kathy! Jesus came forth from almighty God. He was created, and born. He is in fact the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation of God.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;He is the firstborn into existence….
Kathy! You bring up Prov. 8;23, Do you believe that Jesus always existed? And therefore had divinity?
And how do you see what divinity is?
You do know I believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation….right???
Peace IrenePossessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,22:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,10:18) Okay Paul, Peter and John prayed TO the ONE who created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them.
Do you see that they did not pray TO Jesus? So if Jesus is not the ONE that created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them, he has no choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING in them” that was created BY the ONE they prayed TO. If he is one of the “EVERYTHING” that was created by his God, then he is a creature.
Do you see it now? There are only two options listed: The ONE who created all, and the “all” that ONE created. Since Jesus is listed in this prayer as the SERVANT of the ONE who created all, he is obviously NOT the ONE who created all. And if he is not that ONE, then he must be in the category of “Part of the EVERYTHING that was created by that ONE”.
Yes…and if Acts 4:24 represented the sum total of detail we are given about the creation event, this argment might hold some weight. But it is not. Unfortunately for Mike his flimsy argument is vaporised by passages like these:“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (Joh 1:3)
“He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” (Joh 1:10)
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16)
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS” (Heb 1:10)
So the Father is not the Creator to the exclusion of Yeshua, just as Yeshua is not the Creator to the exclusion of the Father. Both are credited for this in scripture.
You must take the whole counsel of God's word into account when forming your doctrinal axioms. Don't fall into the prooftexting trap Mike has here of just taking one verse and using that as the lens by which you view scripture.
Good advice Paul. What your post says between the lines is: “Mike, you are right. According to the prayer in Acts 4, Jesus IS excluded from being the Creator of all things. But I'll list these other scriptures with the assertion that Acts 4 is a contradiction of other scriptures.”
Now, we know from scripture that God alone created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them, right? We know from scripture that we have a Creator, not “Creators”, for the word is never plural. We know from scripture that our ONE Creator created everything THROUGH His first creation, Jesus, right?
The problem is, the only thing your scriptures say is what I've just posted – that all things were created THROUGH Jesus. None of us have argued this. I have ONE Creator – God Almighty. But I was created by God through Jesus, through Adam and Eve, through Noah, and through my parents. Yet I still have only ONE Creator.
If you are confused Paul, the other Paul summed it up quite nicely in 1 Cor 8:6,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This one scripture kicks the crap out of the trinity doctrine all by itself. First of all, it tells us EXACTLY who our ONE God is. Secondly, it clarifies that all things came FROM that ONE God, and THROUGH someone who is NOT that ONE God, but His Son.
The bottom line is this: It is MY understanding that fits in perfectly with ALL of the scriptures. It is YOUR understanding that makes Acts 4 be a contradiction in scripture. Paul, if scripture never contradicts itself, then you must figure out another way to explain the prayer in Acts 4, because listing scriptures that YOU think say something contradictory won't cut it.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50) Do you think the Father is the firstborn of all creation? If not, why? You say it means “preeminent”, and wouldn't the Father, as the God of Jesus, be preeminent over His own creation? Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,22:39)
HA! What are you implying here Mike? That the Father is not preeminent over His creation?!? I would say most assuredly the He is.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Paul. And since we both agree that it is THE FATHER who is PREEMINENT over HIS OWN creation, Colossians 1:15 can't possibly mean what you've claimed that it means, can it?Jesus cannot possibly be preeminent over his God's creation when his own God holds that title, right?
Now, since together we've refuted the “preeminent” claim about Col 1:15, it only leaves the very clear and obvious meaning that Jesus was the one created first out of all creation.
And that means that John 1:1 speaks of a beginning that was AFTER God created Jesus as the first of His works, the beginning of the creation of God, and the firstborn of all creation; but BEFORE God created everything else through His Son.
See how easy this is, Paul? And notice how ALL of the scriptures align perfectly with this.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,23:00) And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
I'm sorry, when again was the Spirit begotten by God?Quote (david @ May 21 2011,00:11) And the house that King Sol′o‧mon built to Jehovah was sixty cubits in its length…. ….he built against the wall of the house a side structure all around…
…Further, he continued building the house that he might finish it, …
the word of Jehovah came to Sol′o‧mon, saying: “As regards this house that you are building, …
Yet we know that Solomon built Jehovah's Temple THROUGH the forced labor that he mandated, right?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,02:23) Quote (shimmer @ May 21 2011,17:06) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Good point. The use of the word “through” here denotes an active role, with Yeshua being the actual executor of the salvic act. So it is with the Creation.“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS” (Hebrews 1:10, NASB)
And what if Jesus DID have an “active role”? What does that mean, Paul?Solomon's forced labor also had active roles in the building of YHWH's Temple, right? Yet only the “HEAD DUDE” has his name on the placard, so to speak.
Hmmmmm………….that fits right in with God being the HEAD of Jesus. Only the HEAD DUDE has been credited with the creation.
Quote (t8 @ May 22 2011,10:56) Possessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
t8 Almighty God is divine. What does that mean? He is immortal and will never die. Jesus on the other hand was not divine before He came to earth, to die for us. Now he is and will never die again.
That's the way I understand it…..Peace IrenePierre,
That's right, Christ was there before the heavens were made. The Bible says there are three heavens, I wonder where the Father and Son were before the heavens were created.Kathi
Quote (t8 @ May 21 2011,17:56) Possessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
I wholeheartedly agree.Quote (t8 @ May 21 2011,18:56) Possessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
Hi t8,
I believe that when one has as a divine nature as their original and essential nature, their nature always existed. Christians will only partake of divine nature, they will only have the fruits of that nature, not the incommunicable traits like the ability to be everywhere or to have been eternal.Our human nature began in Adam…the Son's divine nature always existed and He did not have a different nature like us and then gain another nature, a divine one. Divine nature was His essential nature, the nature He always had. He became flesh, He didn't become divine…He always was. No one can become divine, not in the way the Father and Son are.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,22:45) Quote (t8 @ May 21 2011,17:56) Possessing divinity is not meant to be taken that one has existed for all eternity. After all, we can partake of divine nature and even though we have eternal life, we still had a beginning and I don't see how that can ever change.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Mike,
If our human nature began to exist when Adam was created, the Son's divine nature began to exist when His Father's nature began to exist…in fact…it always existed and had no beginning at all. Do you see the comparison?Kathi
Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,16:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,23:40) Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,05:16) Kathy! Don't know what your point is. I don't know if Jesus was always in the Father, do you??? Do you have a scripture that says so???…You say Jesus was alive before He was begotten, Yes, as a Spirit Being…. That is the way I see it. Begotten means born, and He was born as a Human, that's my point….
But kathy what's the point….. Am I miossing something??? Peace Irene
Irene,
As the Messiah, Son of David, He was born as a human from Mary, that is true but before creation I believe He was born/begotten as the Son of God…we see that in Prov 8.23I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
If He was 'given birth' then I would say that He was within the Father…where else would He be brought forth from…that is why the Father is His Father.
John 17:8
for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me.Bless you,
Kathi
Kathy! Jesus came forth from almighty God. He was created, and born. He is in fact the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation of God.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;He is the firstborn into existence….
Kathy! You bring up Prov. 8;23, Do you believe that Jesus always existed? And therefore had divinity?
And how do you see what divinity is?
You do know I believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation….right???
Peace Irene
Irene,
I can't believe that after all this time posting with me you still misspell my name, Oh well, everyone has their level of paying attention to detail. It doesn't matter but if you are going to spell it you might as well spell it right, ok Ireen 
Anyway, let me ask you something…
Was human nature created? If so, when?
Was divine nature created? If so, when?Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,23:00) And that is not proven anywhere in scripture. The Spirit was also brought forth yet eternal.
I'm sorry, when again was the Spirit begotten by God?
Mike,
It wasn't 'begotten' but it was brought forth and sent. Do you have trouble with that idea? You were talking about the term 'brought forth' meaning that there was time when whatever was brought forth didn't exist. You do agree that the Holy Spirit of God was eternal, don't you?Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,11:40) What your post says between the lines is: “Mike, you are right. According to the prayer in Acts 4, Jesus IS excluded from being the Creator of all things. But I'll list these other scriptures with the assertion that Acts 4 is a contradiction of other scriptures.”
Not much time to respond, I'll be brief.The scriptures I listed are not contradictory for me, but they are for you, that's the point. Trinitarians are quite at ease with the co-crediting of the great works of God to both Yeshua and His Father. Not so for the Arian…..Even more problematic for the Arian are the passages which affirm that YHWH created Heaven and Earth UNAIDED.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone (Isaiah 44:24)5″It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how,
When He overturns them in His anger;
6Who shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
7Who commands the sun not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;
8Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea (Job 9:5-8)These passage leave no room for your agency theory. YHWH did not use creature to execute the Creation act, YHWH created ALONE. So back to the drawing board…..
Quote Now, we know from scripture that God alone created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them, right? We know from scripture that we have a Creator, not “Creators”, for the word is never plural. We know from scripture that our ONE Creator created everything THROUGH His first creation, Jesus, right?
Yeshua is Creator in the same very real sense that He is our redeemer. The cross was HIS cup. He is explicitly credited for both and rightly so. Moreover, he's also credited for upholding the Creation by the word of HIS power (Heb 1:3). His power.Quote The problem is, the only thing your scriptures say is what I've just posted – that all things were created THROUGH Jesus. None of us have argued this. I have ONE Creator – God Almighty.
See above.Quote But I was created by God through Jesus, through Adam and Eve, through Noah, and through my parents. Yet I still have only ONE Creator.
Who, according to scripture, is your redeemer. Consult and quote scripture to support your answer.Quote If you are confused Paul, the other Paul summed it up quite nicely in 1 Cor 8:6,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This one scripture kicks the crap out of the trinity doctrine all by itself. First of all, it tells us EXACTLY who our ONE God is. Secondly, it clarifies that all things came FROM that ONE God, and THROUGH someone who is NOT that ONE God, but His Son.
Careful. Take this argument to its logical conclusion and you must confess Yeshua is Lord to the exclusion of the Father. It's not legitimate to use this verse to draw a contradistinction between the Father and Yeshua with regard to their respective ontologies. Clearly this wasn't Paul's intent.Quote The bottom line is this: It is MY understanding that fits in perfectly with ALL of the scriptures. It is YOUR understanding that makes Acts 4 be a contradiction in scripture.
Incorrect, see above.Quote Paul, if scripture never contradicts itself, then you must figure out another way to explain the prayer in Acts 4, because listing scriptures that YOU think say something contradictory won't cut it.
Already addressed in a previous post.Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,14:57) I believe that when one has as a divine nature as their original and essential nature, their nature always existed. Christians will only partake of divine nature, they will only have the fruits of that nature, not the incommunicable traits like the ability to be everywhere or to have been eternal. Our human nature began in Adam…the Son's divine nature always existed and He did not have a different nature like us and then gain another nature, a divine one. Divine nature was His essential nature, the nature He always had. He became flesh, He didn't become divine…He always was. No one can become divine, not in the way the Father and Son are.
Kathi
Excellent post Kathi. T8 holds the Morman belief that believers become divine in the next life. I've already explained to him that you do not become that which you partake in. I.e. if you partake in a meal, that does not make you one!Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2011,15:11) Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,16:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2011,23:40) Quote (Pastry @ May 21 2011,05:16) Kathy! Don't know what your point is. I don't know if Jesus was always in the Father, do you??? Do you have a scripture that says so???…You say Jesus was alive before He was begotten, Yes, as a Spirit Being…. That is the way I see it. Begotten means born, and He was born as a Human, that's my point….
But kathy what's the point….. Am I miossing something??? Peace Irene
Irene,
As the Messiah, Son of David, He was born as a human from Mary, that is true but before creation I believe He was born/begotten as the Son of God…we see that in Prov 8.23I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
If He was 'given birth' then I would say that He was within the Father…where else would He be brought forth from…that is why the Father is His Father.
John 17:8
for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me.Bless you,
Kathi
Kathy! Jesus came forth from almighty God. He was created, and born. He is in fact the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation of God.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;He is the firstborn into existence….
Kathy! You bring up Prov. 8;23, Do you believe that Jesus always existed? And therefore had divinity?
And how do you see what divinity is?
You do know I believe that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation….right???
Peace Irene
Irene,
I can't believe that after all this time posting with me you still misspell my name, Oh well, everyone has their level of paying attention to detail. It doesn't matter but if you are going to spell it you might as well spell it right, ok Ireen Anyway, let me ask you something…
Was human nature created? If so, when?
Was divine nature created? If so, when?Kathi
Kathi! So SORRY< I spelled your name that way. I used tio spell it Kathi, but then I think I seen yiou spell it Kathy, and I changed it…. Peace IreenQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,11:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50) Do you think the Father is the firstborn of all creation? If not, why? You say it means “preeminent”, and wouldn't the Father, as the God of Jesus, be preeminent over His own creation? Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,22:39)
HA! What are you implying here Mike? That the Father is not preeminent over His creation?!? I would say most assuredly the He is.
I wholeheartedly agree with you Paul. And since we both agree that it is THE FATHER who is PREEMINENT over HIS OWN creation, Colossians 1:15 can't possibly mean what you've claimed that it means, can it?Jesus cannot possibly be preeminent over his God's creation when his own God holds that title, right?
Non sequitur.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,12:08) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2011,02:23) Quote (shimmer @ May 21 2011,17:06) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Good point. The use of the word “through” here denotes an active role, with Yeshua being the actual executor of the salvic act. So it is with the Creation.“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS” (Hebrews 1:10, NASB)
And what if Jesus DID have an “active role”? What does that mean, Paul?Solomon's forced labor also had active roles in the building of YHWH's Temple, right? Yet only the “HEAD DUDE” has his name on the placard, so to speak.
Hmmmmm………….that fits right in with God being the HEAD of Jesus. Only the HEAD DUDE has been credited with the creation.
As I said previously, Yeshua is our Creator in the same very real sense that He is our Redeemer.
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