Question #2 for Keith

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,14:22)

Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:47) The logos as an attribute of God is brought forth (like wisdom). 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, You might be convinced that Proverbs 8 speaks of the preincanate Jesus. I am not. Feminine pronouns are frequently used in reference of HER and earlier in Proverbs wisdom is personified as a woman crying out in the streets!

Read on.

You make the classic mistake of ignoring the bit that says: I was given birth and I was the craftsman at his side. So this attribute is given birth and is called a craftsman.

We also know that the Logos was with God too, and we know that Christ is at the right hand of the majesty on high and in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. In addition God created all things through him. It ties together with no contradiction when you look at all these references.

Regardless, I cannot prove that Christ is the wisdom who was given birth, but the feminine pro-nouns only works for some of that chapter and you make the classic mistake of relating it to the whole chapter. I have seen many others make that same mistake because often their minds are skewed by pre-defined beliefs that blinds them from seeing what it is really saying.

Of course being an attribute to begin with ties in with the LOGOS actually coming from God as part of his character or nature being brought forth. Secondly, Jesus is called wisdom twice in the New Testament, as he is also called a number of other attributes such as truth.

My conclusion is that I would not rule it out. The early church fathers taught that Wisdom was Christ quite a lot and I wouldn't discredit that either.

Of course you can do what you want. I have chosen to be teachable and open-minded in such matters.

[Lightenup]

t8 (and Paul you might be interested in this too),
Good post, the early church fathers and many Christian commentaries consider Prov 8 to be speaking about the Son of God also. It is probably speaking about wisdom as found in the Son and not wisdom as the Son.

John Wesley wrote this:
8:1Wisdom – It is a great question what this wisdom is. Some understand it of the Divine wisdom; others of the second person in the Godhead: and it cannot be denied that some passages best agree to the former, and others to the latter opinion. Possibly both may be joined together, and the chapter may be understood of Christ considered partly in his personal capacity, and partly in regard of his office, which was to impart the mind and will of God to mankind.
found here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….-8.html

and John Gill's wrote:
it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was “in the beginning of his way” of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and “in the beginning of his way” of grace, which was before his way of creation;
found here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….22.html

And then there is Matthew Henry:
The redeemer is the eternal Word and wisdom, the Logos. He is the Wisdom that speaks to the children of men in the former part of the chapter. All divine revelation passes through his hand, and centres in him; but of him as the personal Wisdom, the second person in the Godhead, in the judgment of many of the ancients, Solomon here speaks (v. 22–31).
found here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….l

Kathi

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,16:44)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,14:22) Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:47) The logos as an attribute of God is brought forth (like wisdom). 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, You might be convinced that Proverbs 8 speaks of the preincanate Jesus. I am not. Feminine pronouns are frequently used in reference of HER and earlier in Proverbs wisdom is personified as a woman crying out in the streets! Read on. You make the classic mistake of ignoring the bit that says: I was given birth and I was the craftsman at his side. So this attribute is given birth and is called a craftsman. We also know that the Logos was with God too, and we know that Christ is at the right hand of the majesty on high and in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. In addition God created all things through him. It ties together with no contradiction when you look at all these references. Regardless, I cannot prove that Christ is the wisdom who was given birth, but the feminine pro-nouns only works for some of that chapter and you make the classic mistake of relating it to the whole chapter. I have seen many others make that same mistake because often their minds are skewed by pre-defined beliefs that blinds them from seeing what it is really saying. Of course being an attribute to begin with ties in with the LOGOS actually coming from God as part of his character or nature being brought forth. Secondly, Jesus is called wisdom twice in the New Testament, as he is also called a number of other attributes such as truth. My conclusion is that I would not rule it out. The early church fathers taught that Wisdom was Christ quite a lot and I wouldn't discredit that either. Of course you can do what you want. I have chosen to be teachable and open-minded in such matters.

Yeah I know, it's contentious though and in my opinion doesn't quite fit. I can see why you would want it to though.

[david]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,15:10)

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,14:09) –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself. LOL. Time is “physical” David.

LOL.

You think you know what time is. That's so cute.

[david]

Quote

Yes but God is not subject to it, limited by it, constrained by it. YHWH transcends time, space and matter. As the Creator of time, Yeshua must have preceded its advent and therefore had no beginning in it. Is that difficult to understand?…orr is it just difficult to accept?

So, Yeshua “preceded” time. By how much I wonder???

I guess it is not difficult for you to understand, but it seems difficult for me to understand how Yeshua could 'precede' (“To come, exist, or occur before in time”) time.

Are you familiar with Roger Penrose? He has some interesting ideas.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,12:06)

Quote Yes but God is not subject to it, limited by it, constrained by it. YHWH transcends time, space and matter. As the Creator of time, Yeshua must have preceded its advent and therefore had no beginning in it. Is that difficult to understand?…orr is it just difficult to accept? So, Yeshua “preceded” time.  By how much I wonder???   I guess it is not difficult for you to understand, but it seems difficult for me to understand how Yeshua could 'precede' (“To come, exist, or occur before in time”) time. Are you familiar with Roger Penrose?  He has some interesting ideas.

Do we have eternal life by knowing Jesus?

If you answer yes,
how is this possible if He is bound by time or our concept of time and matter and space?

A Temporal being offering something eternally sounds fishy and crazy too me.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,08:09)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15) Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!…. –God created his Son. –Through his Son He created the angels, who would later shout in applause at physical creation. –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself.

Seriously in what way did God create through his Son?
what does THROUGH mean? how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son.

Was the Son a hammer and God ironed out creation with him?

can someone explain this process for me?

Its seem so contradicting to say everything was made through the Son, yet the guy is not a creator at all. ???
wierddddd

The Intellect of the Potter created the pot, yet the hands that molded it togethor had nothing to do with it… hmmm

[Lightenup]

Dennison, (David you might be interested in this too)
I totally agree with your last post there. Here is an example of someone 'creating' through another person and that other person actually does most of the work.

1Now when Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she became jealous of her sister; and she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or else I die.” 2Then Jacob’s anger burned against Rachel, and he said, “Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?” 3She said, “Here is my maid Bilhah, go in to her that she may bear on my knees, that through her I too may have children.” 4So she gave him her maid Bilhah as a wife, and Jacob went in to her. 5Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. 6Then Rachel said, “God has vindicated me, and has indeed heard my voice and has given me a son.” Therefore she named him Dan. 7Rachel’s maid Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. 8So Rachel said, “With mighty wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed.” And she named him Naphtali.

So, Rachel is the mother and so is Bilhah…both are the mother of Dan and Naphtali in a sense. Rachel just gave the command and Bilhah did most of the work and Rachel takes the credit.

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,18:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,13:00) Hi All, This thread is to urge Keith to show support for a claim he often makes about John 1:1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Psalm 102:25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. The phrase “in the beginning” surely doesn't mean the earth is from eternity, right? John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. Keith, how does the same phrase in John 1:1-2 teach that the Word was from eternity? mike An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other. So when Yeshua brought “all things” into existence (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 etc etc) that would include time (i.e time began at the creation of all things). It logically follows then that as He is the agent of creation He must have preceded time itself – had no beginning in it – and, by definition, is a timeless being.

Amen Brother!

Good to see you Paul. I hope you and yours are doing well!

I can't post much here right now but hope to soon.

Blessings Keith

[Pastry]

All, I only have to consider that Jesus is the Son of God. How could He exist at the same time then His Father?? There is no way. There are three Scriptures that say He was the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

And then through Jesus God created all/

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Because of all these Scriptures I know, Jesus did not exist always….You have a Son? Did He exist at the same time when you were born??? I don't think so…Peace Irene

[Lightenup]

Irene,
Did you exist within the womb before you were actually born from the womb? Wasn't your heart beating long before your mother brought you forth through birth? Maybe the Son existed within His Father before He was actually born also and maybe He 'always' existed within His Father until He was born since the Father has always been self-sufficient, He may have always had the Son within Him to create and save through, and then when He needed Him to create through, He brought Him forth. Think about that Irene.

Blessings,
Kathi

[david]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2011,18:44)

Quote (david @ May 20 2011,08:09) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15) Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!…. –God created his Son. –Through his Son He created the angels, who would later shout in applause at physical creation. –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself. Seriously in what way did God create through his Son? what does THROUGH mean?  how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son. Was the Son a hammer and God ironed out creation with him? can someone explain this process for me? Its seem so contradicting to say everything was made through the Son, yet the guy is not a creator at all.  ??? wierddddd The Intellect of the Potter created the pot, yet the hands that molded it togethor had nothing to do with it… hmmm

EXAMPLE:

Solomon had the temple built. He did not physically build it himself but he built it through laborors, and workmen.

Over and over again we are told Solomon built the temple. It was Solomon's temple. He took credit for it.

But he didn't do the actual building. He did however supply everything needed.

And so we say “Solomon built the temple” even though he had it built “through” a workforce.

Consider that perhaps Solomon had one person he put in charge of organizing and doing the work, a master worksman. You know, the worksmen, they don't even see Solomon. Really, it's this master worksman that is carrying out Solomon's plans. Solomon would still be given the most credit and be called the creator of the temple. And, 50 years later, eveyone would know that Solomon had the temple build and no one would even know the name of the guy that was put in charge of carrying it out. So it goes. Solomon built the temple. (But obviously did it “through” a great workforce.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,21:43)

Hang on a minute….. Explain to me how Acts 4: 30 makes Yeshua a Creature and therefore includes him in the “everything” in verse 24. I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make here.

Okay Paul,

Peter and John prayed TO the ONE who created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them.

Do you see that they did not pray TO Jesus?  So if Jesus is not the ONE that created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them, he has no choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING in them” that was created BY the ONE they prayed TO.  If he is one of the “EVERYTHING” that was created by his God, then he is a creature.

Do you see it now?  There are only two options listed:  The ONE who created all, and the “all” that ONE created.  Since Jesus is listed in this prayer as the SERVANT of the ONE who created all, he is obviously NOT the ONE who created all.  And if he is not that ONE, then he must be in the category of “Part of the EVERYTHING that was created by that ONE”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,21:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50) Now, shall we compare notes as to which one should be literal?  Have you forgotten already that God Almighty would NEVER be said to be born, begotten, brought forth, be a son, or have a beginning?  God Almighty is a servant of no one, and calls no one “my God”. Think it out, man.  Could you even imagine calling the Father “the firstborn of all creation”?  Even with your faulty interpretation of Rev 3:14, it still says that JESUS, (one person) is the ruler of GOD'S (a different person) creation.  Why?  Why wouldn't Jesus have said, “the ruler of creation” and leave it at that?  Why “the ruler of the creation BY GOD”?   So I ask you:  Have YOU really thought this out? Yeah I have thought it out, and those tired old quasi prooftexts have been dealt with by me and others multiple times.

Please indulge me. Do you think the Father is the firstborn of all creation? If not, why? You say it means “preeminent”, and wouldn't the Father, as the God of Jesus, be preeminent over His own creation?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,22:02)

Yes but God is not subject to it, limited by it, constrained by it. YHWH transcends time, space and matter.

What scripture teaches us this, Paul?  How can our 1000 years be like God's “day” if God is not subject to time?

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,22:02)

As the Creator of time, Yeshua must have preceded its advent and therefore had no beginning in it.

Where is Jesus ever referred to as our Creator? And where is “time” ever said to be created?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,10:54)

Irene, Did you exist within the womb before you were actually born from the womb?

But because Irene was at one time “brought forth”, we know there was also a time when she didn't exist, right?

Jesus was also brought forth by his Father, indicating a time when he didn't exist.

It seems to me that the Bible writers go through a lot of trouble using words like “begotten”, “born”, “brought forth”, “created”, “made” and “son” to describe someone who has always existed. Those words would never imply eternal existence if used of anyone else, so why would they in the case of Jesus?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2011,01:39)

Do we have eternal life by knowing Jesus? If you answer yes, how is this possible if He is bound by time or our concept of time and matter and space?

But you forget that death at one time DID have mastery over Jesus. He was not originally eternal, for he died. He is eternal now because his God has ripped him away from the grip of death and has granted him eternal life. The same eternal life has been offered to us, but that doesn't mean those who receive it were FROM eternity.

Remember that “eternal” can mean both from and to eternity, or just “to eternity”.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 21 2011,03:53)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2011,18:44) Quote (david @ May 20 2011,08:09) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15) Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!…. –God created his Son. –Through his Son He created the angels, who would later shout in applause at physical creation. –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself. Seriously in what way did God create through his Son? what does THROUGH mean?  how did God accomplish creating THROUGH his son. Was the Son a hammer and God ironed out creation with him? can someone explain this process for me? Its seem so contradicting to say everything was made through the Son, yet the guy is not a creator at all.  ??? wierddddd The Intellect of the Potter created the pot, yet the hands that molded it togethor had nothing to do with it… hmmm EXAMPLE: Solomon had the temple built.  He did not physically build it himself but he built it through laborors, and workmen. Over and over again we are told Solomon built the temple.  It was Solomon's temple.  He took credit for it.   But he didn't do the actual building.  He did however supply everything needed.   And so we say “Solomon built the temple” even though he had it built “through” a workforce. Consider that perhaps Solomon had one person he put in charge of organizing and doing the work, a master worksman.    You know, the worksmen, they don't even see Solomon.  Really, it's this master worksman that is carrying out Solomon's plans.  Solomon would still be given the most credit and be called the creator of the temple.   And, 50 years later, eveyone would know that Solomon had the temple build and no one would even know the name of the guy that was put in charge of carrying it out.  So it goes.  Solomon built the temple.  (But obviously did it “through” a great workforce.)

david,
did solomon create the workers? so your example cant be compared to God.
now if u can make an example where a physical body and an intellect from the same entity dont create together thannnn u would probably make sense.

but as i said the potters intellect and hands both create.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2011,16:47)

t8 (and Paul you might be interested in this too), Good post, the early church fathers and many Christian commentaries consider Prov 8 to be speaking about the Son of God also.  It is probably speaking about wisdom as found in the Son and not wisdom as the Son. John Wesley wrote this: 8:1Wisdom – It is a great question what this wisdom is. Some understand it of the Divine wisdom; others of the second person in the Godhead: and it cannot be denied that some passages best agree to the former, and others to the latter opinion. Possibly both may be joined together, and the chapter may be understood of Christ considered partly in his personal capacity, and partly in regard of his office, which was to impart the mind and will of God to mankind. found here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….-8.html and John Gill's wrote: it denotes the Lord's having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper Son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was “in the beginning of his way” of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his Son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and “in the beginning of his way” of grace, which was before his way of creation; found here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….22.html And then there is Matthew Henry: The redeemer is the eternal Word and wisdom, the Logos. He is the Wisdom that speaks to the children of men in the former part of the chapter. All divine revelation passes through his hand, and centres in him; but of him as the personal Wisdom, the second person in the Godhead, in the judgment of many of the ancients, Solomon here speaks (v. 22–31). found here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….l Kathi

You can say that truth, life, wisdom, and logos are all found in the son, and even some of us, but Jesus actually said that he was THE way, THE truth, THE life. He used the article to identify that he was THESE. We cannot say that can we? Even if we possess these qualities.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,17:00)

Yeah I know, it's contentious though and in my opinion doesn't quite fit. I can see why you would want it to though.

I don't want it to.

I am open to it because it seems quite possible. Why would I want it to? The truth is to precious to dictate what I want it to be.

Perhaps that is the strongest reason the Trinity exists for you. You want it to?

[Author]

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