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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,13:11) Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:07) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,10:52) An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other. So when Yeshua brought “all things” into existence (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 etc etc) that would include time (i.e time began at the creation of all things). It logically follows then that as He is the agent of creation He must have preceded time itself – had no beginning in it – and, by definition, is a timeless being.
Looks correct.Jesus was the first work of the Father. Then through him, God created all things. Yes I agree that this did not include Jesus/Word.
Some of the early church fathers put it like this:
For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.
If He was the “first work” that makes Him a thing and you have irreconcilable verses to deal with.
No it doesn't.A thing is something that is created and you know what the definition of created is.
The Logos coming forth from the Word power of the Father for example isn't defined as creation if it didn't come forth from God and through the Logos/Christ.
Creation is defined as made by God through Christ/Logos. Obviously the Logos or Christ himself isn't in that category as you yourself stipulated.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:34) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:26) I'm not arguing that Jesus was the Creator to the exclusion of the Father.
Yeah, but Peter and John seem to be stating that God was the Creator to the exclusion of Jesus, don't they? We only have ONE Creator, as you've pointed out by the use of the singular word “Creator”. This prayer in Acts tells us who it IS, and also who it ISN'T.
Incorrect. If it read this way:Acts 4 NIV
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them to the exclusion of Jesus who is merely one of your creatures.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
….you would have a point….
Tatian (165 A.D)
“And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father.”This is pretty much how the early fathers describe the Word who is Christ. I could quote a number of other writers pre-nicean who said something similar.
Of course this doesn't make it right, but my point is that this is how the Word/Logos was viewed by many back then. It changed quite a bit once the later creeds were established.Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:37) The Logos coming forth from the Word power of the Father for example isn't defined as creation if it didn't come forth from God and through the Logos/Christ.
I can't make sense of this.The logos as an attribute of God is brought forth (like wisdom).
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:34) Getting back to the original point….if Yeshua was, in some capacity, involved in the creation of ALL THINGS how can He Himself be a thing? Still waiting for an answer.
I've given you your answer by way of the prayer in Acts 4. You can't take the “ALL” in Col literally if you won't take the EVERYTHING in Acts literally.Now, shall we compare notes as to which one should be literal? Have you forgotten already that God Almighty would NEVER be said to be born, begotten, brought forth, be a son, or have a beginning? God Almighty is a servant of no one, and calls no one “my God”.
Think it out, man. Could you even imagine calling the Father “the firstborn of all creation”? Even with your faulty interpretation of Rev 3:14, it still says that JESUS, (one person) is the ruler of GOD'S (a different person) creation. Why? Why wouldn't Jesus have said, “the ruler of creation” and leave it at that? Why “the ruler of the creation BY GOD”?
So I ask you: Have YOU really thought this out?
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.But, the “beginning” of what? We are actually told:
“In the beginning, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.”
It is taking us back to the beginning of creation, the physical universe. I guess, unless you consider the “heavens” here to be the spiritual heavens. But, based on what follows, that does not seem to be the case. It seems that what follows describes physical creation, and when it says “heavens and the earth” it is referring to the universe, (the heavens) and of course then focuses specifically the earth.
Quote An outworking of Einstein's general theory of relativity is that time, space and matter are inter-related and any one component cannot exist without the other.
I have always had problems with this and how it relates to God. If time didn't exist before God created the physical universe, then God is only as old as the universe he created. I don't know. Nothing makes “normal” sense when speaking of those things.Quote (david @ May 19 2011,20:59) I have always had problems with this and how it relates to God. If time didn't exist before God created the physical universe, then God is only as old as the universe he created. I don't know. Nothing makes “normal” sense when speaking of those things.
Hi David,I also have problems with this. Many claim that God is “outside of time” and other such things – but they don't really know anything about it for sure.
If a thousand years is like a day to God, then God must dwell within some time frame, don't you think?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,12:15) Have you thought this through? If creation came “through” Him then, at the very least, He was involved in the creative act. Jesus logically cannot be a creature then, right? You cannot be involved in the creation of yourself!….
–God created his Son.
–Through his Son He created the angels, who would later shout in applause at physical creation.
–Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical.There is nothing here that contradicts itself.
Quote If a thousand years is like a day to God, then God must dwell within some time frame, don't you think? Well, have you noticed that time seems to move much quicker the older you become? When you are 5, everything is new, and time seems to pass slowly. And soon the years are flying by. i think that is what that is talking about.
But, before the creation of “time” (and the universe) as we know it…I don't know….for things to happen, they must be measured in time. Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. If there is no time, then God is not doing anything….I don't know. No one does.
You are right. No one knows for sure. When your doctrine is as comically flawed as the one that teaches the Son of God is the God he is the Son of, then you must grasp for whatever straw you can imagine.
So they grasp for the “time” straw, knowing nothing at all about what they claim.
Quote (t8 @ May 20 2011,13:47) The logos as an attribute of God is brought forth (like wisdom). 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
You might be convinced that Proverbs 8 speaks of the preincanate Jesus. I am not. Feminine pronouns are frequently used in reference of HER and earlier in Proverbs wisdom is personified as a woman crying out in the streets!Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 19 2011,20:34) Getting back to the original point….if Yeshua was, in some capacity, involved in the creation of ALL THINGS how can He Himself be a thing? Still waiting for an answer.
I've given you your answer by way of the prayer in Acts 4. You can't take the “ALL” in Col literally if you won't take the EVERYTHING in Acts literally.
Hang on a minute…..Explain to me how Acts 4: 30 makes Yeshua a Creature and therefore includes him in the “everything” in verse 24. I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make here.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,13:50) Now, shall we compare notes as to which one should be literal? Have you forgotten already that God Almighty would NEVER be said to be born, begotten, brought forth, be a son, or have a beginning? God Almighty is a servant of no one, and calls no one “my God”. Think it out, man. Could you even imagine calling the Father “the firstborn of all creation”? Even with your faulty interpretation of Rev 3:14, it still says that JESUS, (one person) is the ruler of GOD'S (a different person) creation. Why? Why wouldn't Jesus have said, “the ruler of creation” and leave it at that? Why “the ruler of the creation BY GOD”?
So I ask you: Have YOU really thought this out?
Yeah I have thought it out, and those tired old quasi prooftexts have been dealt with by me and others multiple times.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,14:03) Quote (david @ May 19 2011,20:59) I have always had problems with this and how it relates to God. If time didn't exist before God created the physical universe, then God is only as old as the universe he created. I don't know. Nothing makes “normal” sense when speaking of those things.
Hi David,I also have problems with this. Many claim that God is “outside of time” and other such things – but they don't really know anything about it for sure.
If a thousand years is like a day to God, then God must dwell within some time frame, don't you think?
Yes but God is not subject to it, limited by it, constrained by it. YHWH transcends time, space and matter.As the Creator of time, Yeshua must have preceded its advent and therefore had no beginning in it.
Is that difficult to understand?…orr is it just difficult to accept?
Quote (david @ May 20 2011,14:09) –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself.
LOL. Time is “physical” David.Quote (david @ May 20 2011,14:12) Well, have you noticed that time seems to move much quicker the older you become? When you are 5, everything is new, and time seems to pass slowly. And soon the years are flying by. i think that is what that is talking about.
When you are 2, one year is half your life.
When you are 40, it is one fortieth of your life.I think everything we perceive is relative.
Hi Guys,
Eternity has to have a sequence of events within it, which would give a sense of time different than what we know because is not governed by the sun and moon but in some other way. There are no nights in eternity but I believe that the scriptures speak of days in eternity. I put those verses up a long time ago and can't recall them all now. Here is one though:Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
BTW, it is good to see you Paul and David.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2011,15:10) Quote (david @ May 20 2011,14:09) –Then, in the beginning (of physical creation,) through his Son, He created the heavens and the earth, everything physical. There is nothing here that contradicts itself.
LOL. Time is “physical” David.
Some say that time is an illusion, others think time and space is the fourth dimension. We know that space is physical, so time might be too. Just a thought. It might be an observable way in which we see or measure physical movement.Some say that expansion of the universe and time is the same thing. If that is true, then time didn't exist before the universe.
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