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No. You don't get me. A believer should NOT be judging another believer with a bad motive!!
Its WHO is doing WHAT to WHO.
Do you believe then that a NON trinitarian is going to hell?
Is:1
If I meet a a brother or sister in Christ, on the internet, and I don't know them, then the whole motive is to build up and keep up not to destroy, not to tear down.
Wouldn't you agree?
You don't know whats going on for a person.
Discipline is good, really good.
I have benefited from it greatly, but it was done in love.Its the only way it works.
The whole motive should be for the persons benefit.
Look at Jesus, our perfect example. He spoke different to different people.
” to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name, who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten”.
“There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit”
“Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God is He that is declaring righteous, who is he that is condemning? Christ is He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God — who also doth intercede for us. Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”
“In all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us; for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of god, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord”.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,00:00) Quote (t8 @ May 27 2011,18:53) Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,07:08) Keith,
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
Kathi
Revelation 1:1 spells it out.
It is always the Father speaking through his agency.
And we know that no man has seen or heard God speak, except through his agency.Jesus himself said that he only speaks that which he hears from his Father.
Even a messenger was sent to Moses on Mt Sinai.
I really am perplexed as to why people have to make it so complicated. Scripture is really simple, it is all these doctrines that acts as filters to scripture that cause problems. Confusion is not of God and truth is.
When man meddles with the things of God, it causes great problems and confusion and worse than that is the world doubts further. The price is often the souls of men.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.
t8,1 John 1:3
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.Why does it not say that our fellowship is with the Father through His Son if we are hearing from the Father's words only. The Son has a mind separate from the Father and He always makes intercession for us…those words are His own. Why would He, when talking to the Father just repeat the Father's words right back to Him? I believe that the Son is interested in a personal relationship with you as well as the Father.
Do you think the Son is only a perfect puppet who just passes on whatever He sees and Hears, or can we truly have fellowship with Him AND the Father, not just the Father through Him.
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
I believe the Son is far more than just a messenger. He is our 'head' and our great God and Savior as the scripture puts it. I believe scripture calls us to believe IN two…the Father AND the Son…and that is simple. We understand a Father and a Son, like begets like.
People complicate it by saying that the Father is one type of being and His own Son is a completely different type of being from His Father. Isn't that like telling a child that a human father could have a true and proper son that is a monkey. Tell me what is simple about that? Like begets like…simple…God begets God, perfect begets perfect. That which you seem to believe is like begets unlike, God begets a god, perfect begets imperfect…that is not simple. Maybe I misunderstand what it is that you believe but it seems like you cannot see how two that are called God can become one Godhead and be referred to as one as well as referred to individually. I'm surprised that you would find that complicated. We have that example in marriage.
God is self-sufficient…both principal AND agent in one Godhead. If He is not both principal AND agent, He is not perfect and complete and is needy of another to create through and save that creation through, and to relate to that creation through because He can't do that by Himself. Does the Father dwell in us through His Son…No! It says that both the Father AND the Son dwell in us if we are believers.
t8, I thought that you believed in the divinity of Christ and that He was uncreated. Do you now disbelieve that?
Just wondering,
Kathi
KathiAmen! Good post!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,15:08) Keith,
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
Kathi
Hi KathiBTW I noticed I didn't answer you directly.
I agree with you in this. Yes that is my experience.
Blessings Keith
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,12:46) Is 37:16 “O LORD (the Godhead)of hosts, the God of Israel (Godhead), who is enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God (the Godhead), You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God (the Godhead); there is none else beside him.
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord (the Godhead).
Is 43:10 I am he (the Godhead): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Hi Kathi,Let me show you how your scriptures must read for your understanding to be realized:
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,12:46) Is 37:16 “O LORD (the Godhead)of hosts, the God of Israel (Godhead), who is(ARE) enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God (the Godhead), You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the
LORD(LORDS)he is(THEY ARE) God (the Godhead); there is none else besidehim(THEM).Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The
Lord(LORDS) ourGod(GODS)is one Lord(ARE TWO LORDS) (the Godhead).Is 43:10
I am he(WE ARE THEY) (the Godhead): beforeme(US) there was no God formed, neither shall there be afterme(US).Kathi, do you think we need to rewrite the scriptures as I have done above? Because using a singular pronoun to refer to TWO persons does not make sense to any rational person.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2011,13:36) Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,13:46) t8,
So your list needs a different approach. If you have read my really long post to you on the previous page then you will see that we need to use context to dictate which person of the Godhead is being spoken about or is doing the speaking. It is not always God, the Father.
Hi KathiExactly. If t8 would be honest then he would admit that when he says God spoke to him he would say “they” spoke to him since the Father only speaks by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
When he says “the Lord did this or that” then he should say “they did this or that” since the Father does nothing without Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
But Jesus says God the Father is our ONLY true God. Paul says our ONE God is the Father. How can you guys claim that sometimes it's some other God doing the talking if we only have ONE, and He has been SPECIFICALLY and CLEARY identified as none other than “THE FATHER”?
And Keith, by your understanding, anytime you give a sermon at church, you should say “WE gave a sermon today”, including yourself into this “Godhead”. Because that sermon wouldn't have been delivered unless all “FOUR OF YOU” played your parts, right?
And this post wouldn't be written unless God created me through His Son and quickened me with His Spirit and then I myself typed the words. So the “FOUR OF US” actually wrote this post, meaning that I'M part of the “Godhead” too.
Keith, do you see how I can do things by the power of God without actually BEING God? Why can't you see this same thing in reference to Jesus?
Also, I noticed you said “God DOES nothing without Jesus”. I would like to hear you say that God CANNOT DO anything without Jesus. Will you take your doctrine to the point of blasphemy by directly claiming what you often imply?
mike
Mike,
you said:Quote Kathi, do you think we need to rewrite the scriptures as I have done above? Because using a singular pronoun to refer to TWO persons does not make sense to any rational person. Mike, the word Godhead is a singular word. Many words are like that, for instance with the word 'government' which as you know is made up of many, I could say that the government is really weak right now. Or the word 'country' which is also made up of many, I could say that the country is in great financial debt. It would be incorrect to say 'the government are really weak right now. It would also be incorrect to say 'the country are in great financial debt.' See the difference?
So saying the 'Godhead of Israel' is…, is proper.
Your friend,
KathiQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
I addressed this error in thinking in my last post to T8, refer to that. According to scripture our creation is completely a work of YHWH.
So then the egg of your mother and the sperm of your father were not involved in the creation of you? Tell me directly that your mother and father played no part whatsoever in your creation………….if that's what you truly believe. Paul, if you TRULY believe that God did not create you THROUGH other CREATURES, then make this statement:I, Paul, was created by God alone, and my parents had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with my existence.
If you cannot make this claim, then fess up and admit what the rest of us know to be the truth: That God alone created THROUGH many other creatures.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Getting back to the core issue – Is 44:24 and Job 9:8 make no allowance for a creature intermediary. You still haven't addressed these texts.
They've been addressed at least three times now. I'll await your direct statement about how no creature agencies were used in your creation. If I don't get that statement, then I'll know that you DO acknowledge that God alone created many things THROUGH other CREATURES. And when you acknowledge this, Is 44 and Job 9 won't mean to you what you claim they mean right now.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Right hand man? Yeshua is the King, the King of kings.
And just who place Jesus as King on Zion? Did Jesus place himself there as King? Or did HIS GOD do it? Just who is HIS God anyway? Oh, that's right…………the same One who is OUR God.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2011,11:50) The way YOU understand it, we pray TO God THROUGH God Himself. How can one go THROUGH God to get TO God? It's pure silliness. In YOUR understanding, God has placed Himself at His own right hand. In YOUR understanding, God has GIVEN all power and authority to Himself. In YOUR understanding, God PLEADS with Himself on our behalf. Not to mention that God IS the savior that He Himself SENT. God IS His own anointed one, servant, son, father, sacrificial lamb, and God. How can you people NOT see the truly comical flaws in this doctrine? It absolutely baffles me how you can think God Almighty Himself has a God, and SURPRISE, God Almighty's God is the same God that we have, who is…………..God Almighty.
All valid points to challenge a modalist with. Problem is – I am not a modalist.
Would you mind actually addressing the points? Your answer is a cop-out. Tell me how YOUR beliefs do not end up with the same conclusions.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2011,11:50) Jesus is the Redeemer that his own God SENT to us – just like He foretold in Isaiah 19:20. GOD is the One who saved us. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He chose to save Israel THROUGH Cyrus, whose coming He also foretold, and whom He also called His “messiah”, “faithful servant”, and “good shepherd”. Pehaps Cyrus is God Almighty too?
Getting back to my original point was Yeshua is (rightly) credited in scripture as our Redeemer for his work of redemption.
Another cop-out? Address the Cyrus issue, please. Cyrus was sent BY God as a savior, telling us that he is not God Himself, right? Jesus was also sent BY God as a savior. So using the Cyrus comparison, does that tell us Jesus IS God, or someone else who was sent BY God? Use common sense to help you with this one.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2011,11:50) Yes we are. Notice how you pluralized the word “being” in your statement, since you are talking of TWO SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS. So YES, we have similar nature, but NO, we are not the same individual BEING. Any time you speak about someone having the same nature AS someone else, you are talking about two different beings, not the same one.
You both have human nature. You are both a human being. Yeshua has the same nature as His Father (Heb 1:3).
Come on Paul. Address the ISSUES, man! YOU YOURSELF used the PLURAL word “beings” to describe me and my father, because you know we are TWO SEPARATE BEINGS. Why would you then think that Jesus, as the SON OF HIS FATHER, would be the SAME SINGLE BEING?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Are you saying these are created or uncreated gods? It's my contention that the REAL God is uncreated deity. There is the YHWH and all else are merely creation. Do you agree/disagree and why?
I agree, if you consider “REAL” as an emphasis of the One God who created all the other gods. I don't consider Satan and Jesus, as that One's creations, to be “false gods”. I don't consider the gods of Egypt who turned staffs into snakes to be “false gods”. Perhaps “unrighteous gods”, but gods nonetheless. So while all these are real gods, they are not the only “true God”.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Satan is a creat
ed being. The qualified term “god” is ascribed to him to denote his power and rulership over the non-christian world, NOT to denote deity.
The word “theos” to the NT writers had the same meaning is does to us today. From Webster's:any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature
Does Satan fit into this definition? Certainly. Is he God Almighty? No. Paul, do you ever wonder what is meant by the phrases “God Almighty” and “God Most High” and “God of gods“? If there were no other gods, period, then none of these phrases would make sense, or be necessary to say. Do you ever wonder who the gods are that God Almighty actually ASSEMBLES WITH and passed judgment upon in Psalm 82:1?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Called gods (legomenoi qeoi). So-called gods, reputed gods. Paul denied really the existence of these so-called gods and held that those who worshipped idols (non-entities) in reality worshipped demons or evil spirits, agents of Satan (I Corinthians 10:19-21).
This information is merely an opinion of someone who wants there to literally be only one god in all of scripture, when that is scripturally inaccurate. Paul said there are many gods in heaven and on earth. That's it. He didn't say “false gods” or “so-called gods”. And the word translated as “demons” in 1 Cor is:
daimonion
1) the divine power, deity, divinity
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devilThey are spirit beings who are superior to men and have powers over men, as displayed by the fact they can possess men at will. They are gods who are inferior to God, making them the “gods” in the phrase “God OF gods”.
“Deity” is just the Latin word for “theos” anyway. Why do you and Kathi try to differentiate “deity” from “god”? Am I missing something?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
What they are in reality is created beings whom Paul contrasts with the True God.
YES! So you agree that they are REAL beings who are called gods, but are not God Almighty! Paul also contrasts Jesus, who is a created god, as someone OTHER THAN our “one God, the Father”. The Father is the God OF our Lord Jesus Christ. Many scriptures teach this, including the very words of Jesus himself, who teaches someone OTHER THAN himself is “the one true God”.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Take the pagan view if you like Michael, it's your prerogative to do so. Paul tried to set you straight, but there are none so blind as those who will not see…. I ask again if Moses was a pagan. I will take the SCRIPTURAL view, which teaches Jesus as a god who is not THE God. And it is YOU who Paul repeatedly tried to set straight, by many times referring to Jesus as someone other than and lessor to his own God. But like you so aptly pointed out, there are none so blind as those who will not see.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Yes, that's right, although they are called god they do not have a divine nature.
Okay, so if I'm right, then Paul is not referring to a “they”, but an “it”, for the Law is not a “they”, but an “it”. Formerly when you did not know God, you were enslaved to that which by nature is no god.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Read it in context Michael – He is a legitimate Lord, in contrast to the lords the pagans serve.
So King David was an “illegitimate lord” that the pagans served? How about Samuel and Elijah and Elisha and the many other servants of God who were addressed as “my lord”? Again I ask: IS JESUS THE ONLY LORD WHO EVER EXISTED? YES OR NO?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Because he is still a man (1 Tim 2:5). When He emptied himself and took on the form of a bond servant, it was an irrevocable decision.
This is a common misconception. But 1 Tim 2:5 speaks of the man who died for us NOW being our mediator. Although worded precariously, it does not claim that Jesus is STILL a man. If it did, then it would contradict Gal 1:1, 1:11, 1 Cor 15:45, 15:50, and other scriptures.So knowing that your claim that “God Almighty is a MAN” has been debunked by scripture, what other reason could you come up with for Jesus STILL calling the Father “my God”?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,20:11)
Already addressed.
No sir…………it has NOT been addressed. What you've done is try to say that by creating “alone”, God could not have done that THROUGH creature agencies. Your very existence is proof that your claim is inaccurate, for whether or not you care to admit it, you WERE created by God alone THROUGH your parents, among others.So you have not actually ever ADDRESSED Acts 4, but tried to “slide” around it using unfounded claims. Please DIRECTLY address the following, WITHOUT using the claim that “God alone created” must prohibit Him from doing it THROUGH other agencies – for that claim is inaccurate.
You see Paul, Acts 4 isn't a case of mentioning only one of our Creators, so that other scriptures could add Jesus in to the equation, thus making Acts 4 merely a “part of the whole truth”, like you seem to think. No, Acts 4 specifically mentions the ONE who created all, and then specifically mentions Jesus as the servant OF that ONE, therefore someone OTHER THAN that ONE, clarifying beyond a shadow of a doubt that not only is Jesus NOT the ONE who created all things, but that he MUST be part of the EVERYTHING IN the heavens and the earth that that ONE created.
peace,
mikeQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,21:52) Just to expand on this idea a little more and make it crystal clear for you Michael… “But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.“
Do you see it now? It's very straight forward…
True God – created the heavens and the earth
Other gods – did not make the heavens and the earth
Absolutely Paul! We are in agreement!There is the ONE God, who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. And then there are the many other gods who did NOT create the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them.
According to Acts 4, Jesus is NOT the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them and therefore must be one of the other gods who were created BY that One. All of this is very scriptural, and I'm very happy to see that you at least accept the existence of other gods in the scriptures.
Now that you've accepted this clearly taught scriptural fact, you should be able to understand that 8:6 is not saying there is LITERALLY only one god and one lord who ever existed.
Are you there yet?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
1 John 1:3
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.Why does it not say that our fellowship is with the Father through His Son if we are hearing from the Father's words only. The Son has a mind separate from the Father and He always makes intercession for us…
Of course Jesus has a separate mind from the Father, Kathi; he is a separate being. But if Jesus IS God because our fellowship is also with him, then the “US” John mentions must also be God.And you should look up the word “intecede” once. You'll find that Jesus petitions and pleads with the Father in our behalf. Get it? One who is NOT “Almighty”, pleading with the One who is on our behalf.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
t8, I thought that you believed in the divinity of Christ and that He was uncreated. Do you now disbelieve that?
I hope so. “Divinity” has nothing to do with being “uncreated” in the first place. And there are many scriptures that speak of the creation of Jesus.mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,10:29) So saying the 'Godhead of Israel' is…, is proper.
Good point. Now if only the words “El” and “Elohim” meant “Godhead”, you'd have a good start on this doctrine you're creating.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,13:10) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,21:52) Just to expand on this idea a little more and make it crystal clear for you Michael… “But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.“
Do you see it now? It's very straight forward…
True God – created the heavens and the earth
Other gods – did not make the heavens and the earth
Absolutely Paul! We are in agreement!
Hi MikeJust a quick note. No you are not in agreement.
“But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.”
Mike, are Jesus and Moses included in these so-called gods of the heathen nations?
WJ
Hi Kathi,
I see you have many “atta-girls” about your post. Not to burst your bubble, but let's see if they're really warranted:
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
Do you think the Son is only a perfect puppet who just passes on whatever He sees and Hears, or can we truly have fellowship with Him AND the Father, not just the Father through Him.
Yes, we can have fellowship with the Son. Does that mean he's God Himself? We can also have fellowship with many others who are not God, right?Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
So, is Jesus God? Well, we know he is at the right hand OF God, so therefore NOT God whose right hand he is AT. He intecedes WITH God on our behalf, so again, NOT God who he intecedes with.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
He is our 'head' and our great God and Savior as the scripture puts it.
Yes, he is OUR head. But who is HIS head? Does it say “the Father”? Or does it say “GOD”? And even IF Titus 2:13 said what YOU want it to say, it would merely be an example of God's prophecy through Isaiah, that Jesus would be called “mighty god”, being fulfilled.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
We understand a Father and a Son, like begets like.
Yes, that's true. LIKE begets LIKE. Not SAME EXACT begets SAME EXACT.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
People complicate it by saying that the Father is one type of being and His own Son is a completely different type of being from His Father.
Not necessarily a different “type” of being. God is a powerful spirit being, and so is His Son.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
God begets God,
Here's where the “word-play” comes into use by you guys. In this context, “God” refers to the IDENTITY of one single being. John called Him “THE God” in 1:1, right? So let's use that teminology for your example: “THE God begets THE God”. NOW that we're comparing apples to apples, does it STILL make sense to anyone? “THE President” does not beget “THE President”, altough he can beget “A President”. “THE King” does not beget “THE King”, although he can beget “A King”.See? When you use the word “THE”, as is implied by using the capped version of “God”, you get a confusing result.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
Maybe I misunderstand what it is that you believe but it seems like you cannot see how two that are called God can become one Godhead
Hmmmm…………explain that word “become”. Explain how we use to have TWO God Almighties, but they have somehow BECOME One.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
I'm surprised that you would find that complicated. We have that example in marriage.
Are you and your husband the same entity, Kathi? If he falls down, is it you who gets the broken leg? If he dies, do you also die? You and your husband are two separate beings joined together only in principal under God's laws, but not in reality.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
If He is not both principal AND agent, He is not perfect and complete and is needy of another to create through and save that creation through, and to relate to that creation through because He can't do that by Himself.
Kathi, your words hinge upon blasphemy. I've told you before that you shouldn't ever confuse the fact that God CHOSE TO do certain things through other agencies with your unfounded claim that God MUST do those things through other agencies because He is “needy” or “CAN'T do that by Himself”.Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,23:00)
It says that both the Father AND the Son dwell in us if we are believers.
That's right. The Father, who is our “ONLY true God” and our “ONE God”, dwells in us as well as the Son He created as the first of His works.Kathi, not one single thing you've posted, or scripture you've quoted, teaches about our “TWO GODS WHO BECAME ONE GODHEAD”. And that is SO typical of every trinity or binity claim I've ever read. It's like you guys find a scripture that says Jesus loves us, and another one that says God loves us, and come to the conclusion that Jesus IS God, just because they both love us.
Did it ever occur to any of you that two separate beings can each love us? Or save us? Or be in us? Or fellowship with us?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2011,12:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,13:10) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,21:52) Just to expand on this idea a little more and make it crystal clear for you Michael… “But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.“
Do you see it now? It's very straight forward…
True God – created the heavens and the earth
Other gods – did not make the heavens and the earth
Absolutely Paul! We are in agreement!
Hi MikeJust a quick note. No you are not in agreement.
“But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.”
Mike, are Jesus and Moses included in these so-called gods of the heathen nations?
WJ
Keith,How can you tell Paul what HE agrees with?
He seems to be coming aroung to the FACT that many gods are mentioned in scripture, and many of them are powerful spirit beings like the God of gods, who created them. Don't hinder his progress, please.Keith, not all other gods are unrighteous gods. The god that came to Manoah and his wife was not an unrighteous god, was he? But he WAS a god who was NOT God Almighty, right? Same with Jesus. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning. So he was not THE God, but nevertheless “A god”.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 28 2011,02:39) Quote (shimmer @ May 28 2011,18:09) Its not what people teach but the way they teach it.
That's an interesting view. I'm curious, why do you think that? To my mind it's what people teach that is of far more importance, as salvation depends may on it. You could deliver the wrong message in a loving way and be complicit in sending someone to hell.Apologetics is not all beer and skittles. The reality is you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. (Matthew 10:34-36)
Good post, Paul. I have intimated the same thing to Shimmer before.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,14:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2011,12:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2011,13:10) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2011,21:52) Just to expand on this idea a little more and make it crystal clear for you Michael… “But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.“
Do you see it now? It's very straight forward…
True God – created the heavens and the earth
Other gods – did not make the heavens and the earth
Absolutely Paul! We are in agreement!
Hi MikeJust a quick note. No you are not in agreement.
“But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.”
Mike, are Jesus and Moses included in these so-called gods of the heathen nations?
WJ
Keith,How can you tell Paul what HE agrees with?
mikeBecause I know what Paul believes.
You are being evasive and not addressing the scripture and my question.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2011,13:51) You are being evasive and not addressing the scripture and my question.
Keith,Jer 10 speaks of man made idols that some considered to be gods. Many unrighteous gods, like Satan, will indeed perish though.
Also, notice who God made the world “by”, or “through”. Could this be the “wisdom” from Prov 8, who was created as the first of God's works?
Notice that the wisdom itself did not make the world, but God made the world THROUGH that “wisdom”. Wow! Just one more confirmation, huh?
mike
“The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
Hi Mike
The above gives you a couple choices…
1. God will wipe out all other so-called gods of the heathen nations “who did not make the heavens and the earth and for you that would include Moses and Jesus.
OR
2. There still exist according to you “real gods” that YHWH has not yet wiped out meaning all those gods (including Moses and Jesus) that did not make the heavens or the earth.
WJ
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