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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
Couch it how you like Michael, but the stark fact remains that you affirm the creation of heaven and Earth came about “through” a creature, which is a blatant contradiction of Isa 44:24 and Job 9:8.
Hi Paul,It's not a contradiction at all. In fact Paul teaches that Jesus must have been the one born first out of all creation, because all other things were created through him. Paul, you keep glossing over the fact that God ALONE created me, but He did that THROUGH the CREATURES who are my parents.
DID God ALONE create YOU, Paul? DID He do that THROUGH CREATURES? Where is the “contradiction”?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
If your theology does not fit with biblical revelation – change it.
Good advice……………now follow it.
The prayer in Acts 4 CLEARLY speaks of the ONE who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. Peter and John prayed TO that ONE, THROUGH someone OTHER THAN that ONE.Do you see how all of this fits together so perfectly, Paul? The other Paul says that all things came FROM the Father, THROUGH Jesus. And there is only one name THROUGH which we can be saved BY God. And we pray TO God THROUGH the one He appointed as a mediator between us and Him.
One is the KING, and the other is the KING's right hand man. No one gets to have a face to face sit down with the KING Himself right now. None of us are yet worthy of this. We can only hope to approach the KING THROUGH his main spokesman, or Word. And the Word of the KING pleads and makes intercession with the KING on our behalf.
The way YOU understand it, we pray TO God THROUGH God Himself. How can one go THROUGH God to get TO God? It's pure silliness. In YOUR understanding, God has placed Himself at His own right hand. In YOUR understanding, God has GIVEN all power and authority to Himself. In YOUR understanding, God PLEADS with Himself on our behalf. Not to mention that God IS the savior that He Himself SENT. God IS His own anointed one, servant, son, father, sacrificial lamb, and God. How can you people NOT see the truly comical flaws in this doctrine? It absolutely baffles me how you can think God Almighty Himself has a God, and SURPRISE, God Almighty's God is the same God that we have, who is…………..God Almighty.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
Despite the avalanche of evidence in the NT you can't bring yourself to admit that Yeshua is your Redeemer.
Jesus is the Redeemer that his own God SENT to us – just like He foretold in Isaiah 19:20. GOD is the One who saved us. He chose to do that THROUGH Jesus. Just as He chose to save Israel THROUGH Cyrus, whose coming He also foretold, and whom He also called His “messiah”, “faithful servant”, and “good shepherd”. Pehaps Cyrus is God Almighty too?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
BTW, you and your Father are human beings, right?
Yes we are. Notice how you pluralized the word “being” in your statement, since you are talking of TWO SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS. So YES, we have similar nature, but NO, we are not the same individual BEING. Any time you speak about someone having the same nature AS someone else, you are talking about two different beings, not the same one.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
Question for Michael: are these true or false gods?
Well, did Moses SAY they were “false gods” or “idols”? He was speaking of the gods who were able to turn staffs into snakes and make frogs appear out of thin air right before his very eyes. So YES, they were REAL gods, for Moses said nothing to make us think any differently. And who kicked their butts in the end? The God OF gods. If the latter “gods” does not apply to real gods, then YHWH is in a very precarious position, what with being the God of “false gods” and “idols”. He is the God of UNRIGHTEOUS gods, such as Satan, but Satan is not a “false god”. Satan is VERY REAL, and VERY POWERFUL, and very much a god, in Biblical terminology and understanding.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
You're right, Paul doesn't HINT that he is speaking of so-called gods, he plainly states it.
Come on Paul, you're better than this. Instead of listing a bunch of English translations that add the “so-called” and “gods”, why not tell us what the Greek words actually say? Paul said that there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords……..The phrases “so called god”, “false god”, and the word “god” in quotation marks do not exist in any scripture. Those phrases and quotation marks are added by English translators.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
If Paul was contrasting the one true God with other true deities he would hardly ascribe the phrase “so called” to them, now would he?
But he didn't, did he? And when he said there are many gods, he didn't hint or imply that he meant anything other than real, bonafide gods. He didn't hint that he was speaking of “false lords” either, did he?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
“However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods (Gal 4:8, NASB)
Paul is talking about the Law that Moses handed down. He says we were enslaved by the Law and the observance of special days, presumably like the Sabbath and the various festivals and sacrifices learned from Moses. But God sent His Son, born under that Law, to redeem those born under that Law. It should read: Formerly when you did not know God
, you were enslaved to that which by nature is no god.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2011,14:36) But let's talk “lords”. Do you think that the being of YHWH/Jesus is LITERALLY the only “lord” who ever existed? YES or NO?
Read 1 Cor 8:5-6 carefully and pay attention to the use of the phrase “to us”, then rethink how you should answer this…
Then “to us”, King David was a “false lord” and “no lord at all”? Is that it? How about the Christians of Paul's day who still had masters? Did Paul teach them to ignore those lords because they weren't really “lords”? Or did he teach them to respect them to the fullest of their ability?Like I said, was Jesus LITERALLY the ONLY lord that ever existed who was to be obeyed by God fearing Christians? YES or NO?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
Indeed the Father is the God of Yeshua. As a man born under the law (Gal 4:4) He was subject to all of it. Had he not had His Father as His God he would have made Himself a transgressor and, consequently, invalidated Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Of course this says nothing of his divine nature (Heb 1:3, Col 2:9).
Hmmm………..and why, now that he is back in heaven as “God Himself”, with all power and authority and holding the world together by the power of his own word, does he STILL call the Father “my God”?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2011,04:24)
I said earlier in this thread if Acts 4:24 was the sum total of the detail we are given of the creation event, Who achieved it and how….your would have a solid point. BUT IT IS NOT.
So your contention is that Acts 4 contradicts other scriptures? It only does if we use YOUR understanding, Paul. (And make no mistake, using YOUR understanding, we have a CLEAR contradiction in the scriptures.) But if we use MY understanding, which is formed around what the scriptures actually teach, there is NO contradiction. God surely DID created all things ALONE, which matches perfectly with the prayer in Acts 4. But He has created everything THROUGH His Son, and almost everything on earth through His Son AND other creatures. You and I are prime examples of this, Paul. We both have only ONE Creator, who created us ALONE through many other creatures.My understanding matches all the scriptures perfectly, because I gained that understanding from the scriptures themselves. Your understanding, on the other hand, claims that Acts 4 is a contradiction in the inspired word of God.
You see Paul, Acts 4 isn't a case of mentioning only one of our Creators, so that other scriptures could add Jesus in to the equation, thus making Acts 4 merely a “part of the whole truth”, like you seem to think. No, Acts 4 specifically mentions the ONE who created all, and then specifically mentions Jesus as the servant OF that ONE, therefore someone OTHER THAN that ONE, clarifying beyond a shadow of a doubt that not only is Jesus NOT the ONE who created all things, but that he MUST be part of the EVERYTHING IN the heavens and the earth that that ONE created.
mike
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 26 2011,00:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2011,05:08) Is anyone confused yet?
I am, yes.
Please tell me what part confuses you, Paul. I stand by every statement Keith posted, for it is the truth of the scriptures, around which I base my understanding.mike
Quote (t8 @ May 27 2011,05:31) The Logos was WITH God and God created all through the Logos. We are later told that the Logos is Jesus Christ whom the disciples beheld and who are witnessed to his glory. We know that he existed in glory with God before the world began and returned to that. How did this take place, I do not know because I wasn't there, but suffice to say that God created all through him. Think of the one at his right hand side as the channel that God created through and also the exclusive channel for salvation.
If you cannot imagine it, then think about trying to get from 1 -3. You first need to go past 2 to arrive there.
Or think about going from 1 dimension to 3. The intermediary dimension would be the second.
Now think of Christ as the mediator between God and Man/Creation. If it is not through him, then it isn't real or doesn't exist.
T8,
Than in other words you admit that you “dont know” what happened or how God created a world “through” Logos.For example
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.This defines the Creator in a Singular since. This World that Jesus Created, knew him NOT.
In other words they SHOULD have known him because He is the Potter and they are the clay.Everything else you stated is pure conjecture of trying to imagine something that you have not experienced, or testify of.
Yet scriptures in the NT state that all of the Sudden Logos who is Jesus Chirst particpated in the creation of the World as we know it, hence forth calling him or making him look like a Creator.
Is it not possible that Paul was not trying to paint a picture of how Jesus Is God and that the God they worship is the Same Jesus Christ from the begining?
Further more, we know that the OT uniquely only gives God the Father the title of Creator over all things. Now Scripture as it progresses into the NT gives light that Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and Man not only in flesh and ressurection but before time, when the world began?
Everything was made through him, for himself.
Shouldnt that tell you something that there is a reason why the scriptures dont give a detailed explaination of how exactly God used Jesus to create the world because Jesus is God and it wouldnt be unnessary to do so?
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,18:01) If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.
Hear, hear!Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 27 2011,11:53) T8,
Than in other words you admit that you “dont know” what happened or how God created a world “through” Logos.
Of course.We can only go by that which is revealed.
What we know so far.
- God created all through him.
- The Logos became flesh and he was beheld as Jesus the son of God. We know that the Logos was WITH God in the beginning and we know that the son of God is WITH God now. We also know that where Jesus is now, is the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
- Nothing was made that wasn't created through him. No one is saved outside of him. All through him from creation to redemption. No one and nothing else exists that didn't go through him.
- The head of the woman is the man. The head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. This also aptly demonstrates the source.
So I don't need to know exactly how God created through Christ, I only need to know that he did.
No conjecture here, in fact it is a harder road disproving this than proving it. I only need quote scripture, you need to apply all this extra understanding to change the meaning.
Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,19:00) and thus being called wisdom from God also places him as a candidate for the wisdom that was the craftsman at his side.
Or the wisdom as it was in the craftsman who, if the Son, is called God. The Son is at the Father's side. God as the Son was at the Father's side. THEY are inseparable and represent one united Godhead.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,19:56) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,18:01) If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.
Hear, hear!
I do.Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,19:01) An image of God cannot be God that is an oxymoron.
God is the source.
There is no one true God that is not the source and creator of all.
The one true God means what it says although the tendency for man is to change that, God wrote this into the first commandment.An image of God may have qualities of God however, thereby being qualified as “theos” but not THE only true “theos”.
Also, God is a HIM, not THEM.
If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.People get confused, but the Father is the original and only true God. This is clearly taught in scripture lest any person teach otherwise.
The son came from him so as it is written in scripture, that he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and when he came here he emptied himself and partook of human nature. He even learned obedience here. I guess that means that when you are not tempted you do not learn to be obedient, you just are. Also, having divine nature didn't make him THE theos just as having human nature didn't make him THE Adam (the husband of Eve), although he was called the second Adam, but for a different reason.Between us and God there needs to be an intermediary step. That is Christ.
God is not physical, but the son who can inhabit a single body can enter God's own creation as a person and can be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Whereas God himself is an eternal Spirit who can pervade all of creation, but does not contain himself in one body. Hence the reason he is called the invisible God and Jesus, the visible representation of him.
Quote An image of God cannot be God that is an oxymoron. Well, the image can't be the God that He is the image of but the image can be the Son of that God that He is the image of. When man bears a son in his image, you have a second man there…both are men, both are human. The image of man can be also another man. Why couldn't the image of God be also another God?
Genesis 5:3 NAS
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him SethQuote God is the source.
There is no one true God that is not the source and creator of all.
The one true God is a Godhead of more than one and that one true Godhead is composed of one true God the Father and only one true God the Father with His Son, also called God and also having divine nature and their united Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son. This one true Godhead is the source and creator of all. Take one away and you do not have creation.John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Quote The one true God means what it says although the tendency for man is to change that, God wrote this into the first commandment. The Father has the Son in Him and is inseparable from the Son and Spirit which is of Him.
Quote An image of God may have qualities of God however, thereby being qualified as “theos” but not THE only true “theos”. Not the only true theos, as Father, nevertheless, true theos as Son. Perfect begets perfect, lacking in nothing…perfect does not beget imperfect.
Quote Also, God is a HIM, not THEM.
Depends on the context.Gen 1 26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”Gen 11 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 19 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven
Quote If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.I do, when I am talking about both persons. Although, Godhead is a singular term made up of more than one. The body of Christ is a singular term made up of more than one. When you speak of the body of Christ, the body is an it not a they even though it is made up of many members.
1 Corinthians 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
Like the one Godhead is 'a unit' made up of more than one member, so is the one body more than one member.
I use the words 'us' or 'they' when speaking of both the Father and the Son.
Quote People get confused, but the Father is the original and only true God. This is clearly taught in scripture lest any person teach otherwise.
The son came from him so as it is written in scripture, that he existed in the form of God or with divine nature and when he came here he emptied himself and partook of human nature. He even learned obedience here. I guess that means that when you are not tempted you do not learn to be obedient, you just are.Yes, the Father is the original and only true God…as the Father. The Son did come from Him but that doesn't mean that the Son wasn't always IN Him from eternity, it just means that at one point, the Son was begotten from Him.
The Son learned obedience, according to His human nature. His divine nature wasn't tempted but his human nature was.Quote Also, having divine nature didn't make him THE theos just as having human nature didn't make him THE Adam (the husband of Eve), although he was called the second Adam, but for a different reason. Having divine nature didn't make Him the theo
s, the Father, it made Him the Son who is also called theos, of that Father. Like I have been saying, two are called theos, they are inseparable and make up one Godhead.Quote Between us and God there needs to be an intermediary step. That is Christ. Yes, between God THE FATHER there needs to be an intermediary step. That is Christ according to His human nature. He holds two offices, both Lord and Christ, both judge and mediator. Lord and judge according to His divinity…Christ and mediator according to His humanity.
Quote God is not physical, but the son who can inhabit a single body can enter God's own creation as a person and can be in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Whereas God himself is an eternal Spirit who can pervade all of creation, but does not contain himself in one body. Hence the reason he is called the invisible God and Jesus, the visible representation of him. Neither the Father or the Son were physical…they are spiritual but we know that those that are spiritual can appear as if they are physical and the Son was able to actually become physical in the incarnation. As to why the Father is invisible, I understand, it is for our protection that He remains unseen or we would die. I can't say that it is impossible to see Him, just that He has remained unseen to us yet become visible to us through His image…His Son. The Son has seen Him.
Ok, that about wraps that up
Take care t8,
Blessings, KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,14:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,19:56) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,18:01) If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.
Hear, hear!
I do.
So you do call God “THEM”.
At least you are honest about what you believe.
I haven't seen this came confession from WJ or KJ yet, they haven't admitted what they should to demonstrate that they really believe what they teach.However, enough praise because it can no more be given. It has to be said that God as “THEM” is a huge departure from the one God of the Old Testament and New Testament as he is called “HE”, “HIM” for a reason. You demonstrate that you care more about your doctrine than the reason why God is called “HIM”. I also challenge you to read all these scriptures in this link
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-11.htm
and where it says God, think “THEM” (Father/Son). I wonder if the resulting confusion will at least make you question your doctrine? If you continue to teach this doctrine even after being made aware of how it breaks scripture, I wonder if you can give me an honest answer again as to why?Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,14:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,19:56) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,18:01) If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.
Hear, hear!
I do.
So you do call God “THEM”.
At least you are honest about what you believe.
I haven't seen this came confession from WJ or KJ yet, they haven't admitted what they should to demonstrate that they really believe what they teach.However, enough praise because it can no more be given. It has to be said that God as “THEM” is a huge departure from the one God of the Old Testament and New Testament as he is called “HE”, “HIM” for a reason. You demonstrate that you care more about your doctrine than the reason why God is called “HIM”. I also challenge you to read some scriptures in this page
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-11.htm
and where it says God, think “THEM” (Father/Son). I wonder if the resulting confusion will at least make you question your doctrine? If you continue to teach this doctrine even after being made aware of how it breaks scripture, I wonder if you can give me an honest answer again as to why?A reminder of who Jesus is. It is written that all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. I am already confessing this as are other people and I guess that outside of that, people will say it either in their own time, or when they have run out of time and realise the truth.
Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.John 13:13
“You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.John 13:14
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.t8,
I do appreciate your concern, I really do. I don't call the Godhead by the name 'trinity.' So your list needs a different approach. If you have read my really long post to you on the previous page then you will see that we need to use context to dictate which person of the Godhead is being spoken about or is doing the speaking. It is not always God, the Father. It is not always the collective Godhead. It is not always God, as the Son. The same with the word 'Lord' or “LORD' it is not always Lord/LORD as in God the Father, it is not always the collective Godhead, and it is not always Lord/LORD as in God as the Son. Sometimes the word God just means divine, or something that others falsely believe on as being divine (which is then signified by a lower case 'g').Here are some examples:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was the God (the Father), and the word was God (divine).
John 3:16 “For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him (God as the Son), “My Lord and my God (both applied to God as the Son)!”
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD (God as the Son), IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior (God as the Son), Christ Jesus,
Romans 5:9 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God(God as the Son) over all, forever praised! Amen.
Is 37:16 “O LORD (the Godhead)of hosts, the God of Israel (Godhead), who is enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God (the Godhead), You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.
Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God (the Godhead); there is none else beside him.
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord (the Godhead).
Is 43:10 I am he (the Godhead): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make (God as Father speaking to God as Son) man in our image.
John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God (God the Father), believe also in me (God as Son).
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us,(God the Father speaking to God as the Son or visa versa) to know good and evil.
Gen 19 24 Then Jehovah (God as the Son) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven (God the Father)
Context and our understanding of God brings understanding as to who is being referred to and it was with MY understanding that I have supplied the words in parenthesis. I know that I am merely a created person with limited understanding as are all of us on HN, so feel free to challenge me on these. Iron sharpens iron.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,13:46) t8,
So your list needs a different approach. If you have read my really long post to you on the previous page then you will see that we need to use context to dictate which person of the Godhead is being spoken about or is doing the speaking. It is not always God, the Father.
Hi KathiExactly. If t8 would be honest then he would admit that when he says God spoke to him he would say “they” spoke to him since the Father only speaks by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
When he says “the Lord did this or that” then he should say “they did this or that” since the Father does nothing without Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Anyone who is honest with the scriptures would say everything that we recieve comes through the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit for they are inseparable and they are One.
His whole argument is a straw man. Not to mention he is denying scripture that clearly show God is plural like the ones you quote.
You can't have any one of the three without the other.
How do the Arians and Henotheist justify this commandment…?
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME”. Exod 20:2
Yet they must serve and put another “Divine Being” who they say is “a god” before God.
Blessings WJ
Keith,
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,15:08) Keith,
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
Kathi
KathiThe point is unless we have a vision that it is Jesus speaking then we don't know who it is.
The truth is it is the three since the Spirit does or says nothing without the Father and the Son and the Father does or says nothing without the Son and the Spirit.
If God speaks to me I cannot distinguish who of the three it is and that is because it is the three for they are One.
Would anyone say that the words of the Father are not Gods words?
Would anyone say that the words of Jesus are not Gods words?
Would anyone say that the words of the Holy Spirit are not Gods words?
Would anyone say that Jesus saved them but the Father and the Holy Spirit did not?
Our fellowship is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
We cannot be saved without the three.
When we are perfect in heaven then we will know the distinction or will we?
But an honest person will admit that if they say “God Spoke” to them then they would acknowledge it must be the three that are speaking since they do nothing independent of the other.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 27 2011,05:57) Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2011,14:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,19:56) Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,18:01) If you are convinced of your theory, that God is “THEM”, then call God “THEM” to at least show your faith in your own teaching/doctrine.
When you do that, at least I will be convinced that you truly believe your own doctrine.
Hear, hear!
I do.
So you do call God “THEM”.
At least you are honest about what you believe.
I haven't seen this came confession from WJ or KJ yet, they haven't admitted what they should to demonstrate that they really believe what they teach.
T8And this is not exactly the truth is it? This is what I said…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2011,13:12) Hi T8 They are my Savour, they are my Lord, they are my God, and they are my Light and Life, for they are “One”. I was also baptized in “Their” name. How about you?
They are my God for they are inseparable as one and you can't have God without the three, do you deny this?
Can you receive anything from God the Father without the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Do you not pray to and have fellowship with the Father and the Son by or through the Holy Spirit?
How can you have God without having the three?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2011,06:36) Exactly. If t8 would be honest then he would admit that when he says God spoke to him he would say “they” spoke to him since the Father only speaks by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
WJ, you are attempting to drag me into the mired situation you find yourself in.I talk to the Father in the name of Jesus it is that simple.
God is not a committee of persons to me, God is a person or identity. Yes God works through people, creation, and primarily his son, but including the vessels that he works through as God too, is ridiculous. And the Spirit is his own spirit. Not another person.Instead of trying to pin the same situation on to me that you find yourself in, just fix the situation up in your own life. You are first responsible for your own faith and to get that right, and then you might have the true authority to teach others. However, I have explained my faith to you clearly, and you still obviously do not get it.
Such subjects seem above you WJ. You should teach that which you understand and know as true. Branching out into territory beyond what you are capable of is dangerous.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2011,07:08) Keith,
Sometimes it is the Father who speaks to us and sometimes it is the Son, we can call either one of them 'Lord' and say the 'Lord spoke to me.' Usually I just know that the impression or thought came from one of them but not sure which one and I don't know if it matters…if it did then that would be made plain, imo. One would not say one thing to me and the other contradict it. They are united in what they do or say.Is that not true in your experience?
Kathi
Revelation 1:1 spells it out.
It is always the Father speaking through his agency.
And we know that no man has seen or heard God speak, except through his agency.Jesus himself said that he only speaks that which he hears from his Father.
Even a messenger was sent to Moses on Mt Sinai.
I really am perplexed as to why people have to make it so complicated. Scripture is really simple, it is all these doctrines that acts as filters to scripture that cause problems. Confusion is not of God and truth is.
When man meddles with the things of God, it causes great problems and confusion and worse than that is the world doubts further. The price is often the souls of men.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,20:48) If that is a contradiction then truth is a contradiction.
Truth and contradition are not friends. If contradictions feature in your theology it's a good indication that it needs revision.Quote Were you not created by God through your parents? Yes.
Your analogy falls short. Scripture attests to the fact that Yeshua formed the heavens and the earth – their creation was His work (Heb 1:10). My parents merely supplied some of the raw materials (which, by the way, were created for them), but my creation was completely a work of God:“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. (Psalms 139:13-14, NASB)
Quote Did God create all things alone? According to scripture, you say yes.
I do.Quote If both are true, then that means you need to change your understanding here Paul to cater for both truths instead of seeing them as contradictions.
But they are not a contradiction for me as my theology accounts for the information presented in Is 44:24 and Job 9:8. Not true for henotheism, which is why I point it out.Quote (david @ May 26 2011,18:56) Can I do that tomorrow? It's 2:00 AM. I must sleep. But, while waiting for my answer, perhaps you could answer the question above yours?
Friendly reminder for David.Hi all.
Sorry to interrupt here, I'll just give my opinion and go.
I have to say that I do understand what WJ and Kathi are saying because that's how I experience it. I may not know which one it is, God or the Son or the Spirit, and I don't even think about it. But I know its the Father or Son through the Spirit that hears me, and I just pray to Lord or Father.
In the Bible people saw messengers of God and said they saw God.
I also understand Divine Agency and understand it through t8s post. Especially the part about people making it complicated and driving people away – rather than to – God.
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