- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,16:02) Quote “1)…No magicians were involved…” T8, you are silly. For TEN? years you probably thought “no magicians were involved” with this forum. You were wrong about that. Why be so certain about this?
So are you indirectly inferring that my friend was a magician then. If not, then your comment is not relevant to the event we are discussing.Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,16:05) Quote It probably would have worked if we were blindfolded too because sight was not needed, except to observe. That would be a first. You should have gotten it on camera. You could have made a million dollars.
You say it probably would have worked because sight WASNT needed. Yet, I presume either your eyes or the other persons eyes were open. So, what could you possibly be basing that on? I'll bet you $1000 you can't do it with your eyes blindfolded.
I'll bet you $1000 I won't dabble in things like that again because scripture warns us not to for a reason.And it is fine for you to be skeptical about this because it doesn't matter in the scheme of things.
I have seen things that many people never get to see in this life. My life has been an interesting one.
As for making a million out of replicating this. Well I think it wouldn't work if you orchestrated it. Spirits aren't dogs that you can teach tricks to. Do you think that Jesus could have made a million bucks by casting demons out of people every Sunday at 10.00 in the morning.
Likewise the reason why denominations are full of tradition and dead works is because they to think that they can teach God when to jump through hoops. They are almost as bad as these guys that practice dark arts for a living.
I believe that God, angels, fallen angels, demons, and Satan are all real. Just because I can't make God bring fire down from Heaven every Sunday in front of a paying crowd doesn't mean that there isn't a God who can do that or even that there isn't a God that has done that. Likewise, I don't think you can control these spirits and because of that, this no proof that they don't exist.
God is the one in control not us. Likewise, these spirits like to be in control of us not the other way round. That is why industries that try to monetize these things resort to fraudulent activities because they have to generate these things at specific times and that is not how this works in case you thought it was.
Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 16 2012,15:55) I would value some help with an issue that I have no answer to
A friend went to a party where she met a physchic ,who proceeded to reveal to her so much personal information that only my friend could have knownMy natural reaction was to blame evil spirits. I can understand that spirits can know the past, but can they see the future. If these spirits can see the future , does this mean that the future has already taken place.
Surely only God knows the future
This area is one which crops up when I am with non believers So I need an answer
Thank you to everyone who has already answered my other questions
Guncher,There may still be prophets and even those of gods that are not God like Yahweh is God sometimes prophetised true. This is done to test the hearts of humanity. Given the nature of what was revealed I suspect that the prophet your friend met was inspired by evil spirits. She could also have been a fraud as personal information is not as hidden as one would think. Even then the prophet would be under the direction of evil spirits.
Yawheh know the future but in his righteousness he may well give it to a spirit to reveal; even as he gave Satan permission to oppress Job.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
King James Version (KJV)13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.Quote I'll bet you $1000 I won't dabble in things like that again because scripture warns us not to for a reason. Scripture warns against spiritism.
Parker brothers does not insert spirits into those boards. You could make a case that you wouldn't use the board to avoid stumbling others who don't understand or have knowledge. And I guess because that is the purpose people use the board for, for that reason alone they should be shunned. But, unless spirits can't see, then the blindfold test proves its not spirits at work.
The jumping through hoops idea, I have often considered. Maybe the spirits only exist when no one is looking, or, recording. Or, when no one that is good at thinking is looking. It seems that if the demons don't want people to know that they exist, then why play along?
You believe that:
–They are making themselves known by answering the questions
–But, they don't want people to know they are involved and are shy about revealing themselves under test conditions.Logical question: if it is demons moving the planchette, why do the humans have to be touching it at all? Think about that. They supposedly move things around, cause them to levitate. So, why with the board do people have to be touching it?
I'm going to wreck magic.
Let's start with this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#….g1kwGFM
Is this guy psychic? Or, is this just a brilliantly clever trick?
David,
Quote Logical question: if it is demons moving the planchette, why do the humans have to be touching it at all? Think about that. They supposedly move things around, cause them to levitate. So, why with the board do people have to be touching it? It is a reasonable question. I am unsure if logical is used as and adjective to describe what you want as logical is the form of an argument.
The obvious answer seems to be that demons set the rules. If there are indeed studies that reveal that blindfolded participants only receive gibberish in their divinations then it may be that is what demons reveal in that situation.
david, I think most people know that magic is all rope, pulleys, and pigeons. But that doesn't discount that there are evil spirits and there are things that we are not meant to get involved with.
Understanding magic is not a prerequisite for understanding the supernatural. They are completely different. One is using natural laws in a way as to deceive or make something look impossible. The other is supernatural or spiritual.
Two different things.
david, if you think it is just a board game, then as a believer you are free to play a board game, so go right ahead and play Ouija and put it next to your game of Scrabble. In fact why don't you market Christian Ouija a game where you defeat the dark powers in high places. Obviously what you fail to understand is that it is not the Ouija Board that is evil, but what you are doing by calling to the spirits and opening yourself to them.
Scripture of course forbids us to get involved in such things. That is good enough for me, but for some reason you seem to be arguing against this and demeaning the whole thing. That really means that you are saying it is a harmless activity albeit not a productive one.
I think it is dangerous myself and saying or inferring that it is harmless directly or indirectly is IMO dangerous too.
Quote david, I think most people know that magic is all rope, pulleys, and pigeons. But that doesn't discount that there are evil spirits and there are things that we are not meant to get involved with. Understanding magic is not a prerequisite for understanding the supernatural. They are completely different. One is using natural laws in a way as to deceive or make something look impossible. The other is supernatural or spiritual.
Two different things.
Agreed. Two different things. I get frustrated when people confuse the two, something I have dealt with in one way or another since I was 8.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,20:12) I'm going to wreck magic. Let's start with this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#….g1kwGFM
Is this guy psychic? Or, is this just a brilliantly clever trick?
I'm sure it is a trick. How was it done. The guy at the end said the card was covered in honey or something.So if the two people were involved knowingly in the trick, did they just feel the card that was covered in honey and flip that one?
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,21:08) Agreed. Two different things. I get frustrated when people confuse the two, something I have dealt with in one way or another since I was 8.
I see and I hear you.Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2012,17:47) david, if you think it is just a board game, then as a believer you are free to play a board game, so go right ahead and play Ouija and put it next to your game of Scrabble. In fact why don't you market Christian Ouija a game where you defeat the dark powers in high places. Obviously what you fail to understand is that it is not the Ouija Board that is evil, but what you are doing by calling to the spirits and opening yourself to them. Scripture of course forbids us to get involved in such things. That is good enough for me, but for some reason you seem to be arguing against this and demeaning the whole thing. That really means that you are saying it is a harmless activity albeit not a productive one.
I think it is dangerous myself and saying or inferring that it is harmless directly or indirectly is IMO dangerous too.
No. I don't think it's “just a board game”. Monopoly is just a board game.This thing is a psychological superstition self deception machine designed to play on fear and imagination, hope, sorrow, and belief.
Not in the same category at all
What I'm saying is: the board does not work by spirits. Spirits aren't fooled by blindfolds. That's silly. People can't see when blindfolded. That makes sense. Spirits being tricked by a blindfold is silly. People being tricked by a blindfold isn't silly.
I'm saying that the ideomotor effect (called idiot motor effect by some magicians) is an actual real tangible effect that is used for 3 or 4 “magical” looking things. Because people are unfamiliar with it, they are fooled by it, along with several other things that are going on. What makes the board so convincing is that multiple things are at work. Psychology, belief, hope, Memory, sometimes pranksters, remembering hits, forgetting misses, ideomotor effect.If a time machine was created and you took your computer just 100 years into the past, you may well be accused of witchcraft by those you meet because you are holding something powerful they don't understand. Perhaps that person would tell you at god forbids us from getting involved in such things.
For me, it's all about perception. And stumbling. And ignorance.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2012,18:11) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,20:12) I'm going to wreck magic. Let's start with this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#….g1kwGFM
Is this guy psychic? Or, is this just a brilliantly clever trick?
I'm sure it is a trick. How was it done. The guy at the end said the card was covered in honey or something.So if the two people were involved knowingly in the trick, did they just feel the card that was covered in honey and flip that one?
It's so crazy how derren sometimes allows clues like that to slip through or purposely gives them. He sometimes dresses up an effect so much that magicians don't even recognize them. Once he did this and then at the end of the trick said, “that's out of is world.” I knew it was the “out of the world trick, but had to watching four times before I even notice he actually named the trick.At the end, him mentioning the honey. It is a clue.
No. They weren't playing along. They could have turned over any card. It wouldn't have mattered.
But, looking at this, it really does seem truly impossible. But, here is what is more interesting: the memory. After seeing this effect, you will not remember certain this and you will embellish other things.
For example, you might remember it wrongly, thinking that she could have chosen any card at all. That's not true.
People remember wrong. This understanding is often used in magic. A story is created that never really happened. And people often are willing to defend that story to the death. And yet, they are wrong.
For many people, this trick was a miracle, impossible, and proves that he is magical. They would say: “he is demonized, how else could he do it”?
They would be wrong.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,21:18) What I'm saying is: the board does not work by spirits. Spirits aren't fooled by blindfolds.
David, I think that when you call up spirits or talk to evil spirits it can be more than a mental or self delusional thing. You are doing something that is forbidden by God.Think about praying to God and how we are encouraged to do this. Now think about conversing with spirits and how we are discouraged to do such things.
The Atheist laughs at the first one.
The man who ignores that there are powers of darkness and spirtual wickedness could ignore the latter.Okay back to the trick.
I noticed that he said that she had free will, but he suggests a colour and she has red hair.
He then suggest hearts or diamonds. Maybe because she wasn't wearing diamonds, statistically speaking you will choose hearts. Or maybe people choose hearts most of the time anyway. I would.
He then asks for a number and says between 1 and 10 and says not to choose 3. So I am guessing that most people unconsciously could say that 10 – 3 = 7.
Dunno. Or maybe there are a whole heap of failed applicants and these two happened to be the one out of whatever that would have statistically got it right. Are there failed videos that we don't get to see?
Quote David, I think that when you call up spirits or talk to evil spirits it can be more than a mental or self delusional thing. You are doing something that is forbidden by God. True. But at the same time, spirits are not how ouija boards work.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2012,20:56) Okay back to the trick. I noticed that he said that she had free will, but he suggests a colour and she has red hair.
He then suggest hearts or diamonds. Maybe because she wasn't wearing diamonds, statistically speaking you will choose hearts. Or maybe people choose hearts most of the time anyway. I would.
He then asks for a number and says between 1 and 10 and says not to choose 3. So I am guessing that most people unconsciously could say that 10 – 3 = 7.
Dunno. Or maybe there are a whole heap of failed applicants and these two happened to be the one out of whatever that would have statistically got it right. Are there failed videos that we don't get to see?
He asked the very red headed lady: “which color would you prefer”? She prefers red, loves red, and said red.The vast majority of women choose hearts, especially the romantics. And, she was only given a choice between 1-10, not the court cards. And derren gave a weird reason for not allowing 3.
What you don't know is that when given a choice, the vast vast majority of people will pick 3 or 7. Google “37 David Blaine” maybe.
These psychological forces don't work 100% of the time. But they work most of the time. (Street magicians use this understanding a lot. Even if there was a 1/52 chance of guessing the right card, if the person is only performing for the camera, with no audience to keep him honest, it is very easy to keep the hits and forget the misses; keep the footage of the successes and discard the misses. If you did this yourself, using Darren's words and timing, if you had just 2 or 3 couples you were filming, you would certainly have one of the red headed ladies pick 7 of hearts given the limitations.
You have to REMEMBER that years later, when she is TELLING THE TRICK TO HER GRANDKIDS, she will just say: “I picked a card in my mind. I could have chosen any card”. SHE TRULY BELIEVES THAT. she was there and knows what she saw!!! Right? But, she would be wrong, and just spreading false stories.
The real magic happens in the mind. I've heard that 100 times from magicians and its true. The recalled perception of what happens isn't at all what happened. This is what people don't understand. They swear they know what they saw. They simply don't.
Anyway, there are literally hundreds of ways to force a card on a person, through sleight of hand. The psychological methods are harder but seem more impressive later on. So, the 7 of hearts was FORCED.
Now, why was the card sticky? In fact, why were all the cards sticky? Magicians like putting a sticky glue like substance on cards sometimes. I once had a deck like that. (Invisible deck trick). For derrens effect, the backs of all the cards had a very slight stickiness to them. Not sticky enough to be noticeable really. Just a slight tackiness.
There is a reason for everything that is done in a magic trick. Watch enough and you notice the discrepancies and will ask why. Why were the cards already spread on the table. Tricks never start that way. They were spread on the table because in the middle of each deck was a seven of hearts turned upside down, but placed directly behind a face up card so that it wasn't visible. (There is no reason for the sevens to be sticky. I don't know if at the end he was playing with the seven or not, or if it was a different card).
So, they square up the cards. Since the seven is in the middle, it won't be noticed with the way most people square up cards.
Why were the cards always under the table? So that they didn't notice something–the face down card in the deck. They shuffle. Stories are told that create a feeling of magic. (Just like stories are told about ouija boards before they are used, builds expectation). They turn over any random card, DOESN'T MATTER. When this card is turned over it will be two sticky backs facing each other. They will stick together when the cards are spread. (I should mention that the faces of all the cards are Extra slippery and the backs are sticky). It's scary that he let them spread the cards, but more impressive. The card essentially disappeared, but what was left was the seven, which was already turned over. (The card they turned over only disappeared when spread face up. If spread face down, it would be visible. )
Easy peasy. But to some, a miracle and proof that demons lurk inside of him.
Again, for the sake of this discussion, it's the way the mind works, how things are forgotten and re-remembered that is important.
There aren't videos of ouija boards because they are boring. What isn't boring is the re-remembered stories, (often from 2nd or 3d parties) stories that never actually happened quite the way they were remembered.
Imagine you are this red headed lady.
You KNOW what happened, because you were right there. No one who wasn't there is going to tell you what happened because you feel you were watching closely and you don't know how it could be done, and you remember it wrongly. You believe you randomly picked any card. How could he possibly have known? You believe you turned over the seven of hearts, because you don't have a working knowledge of card tricks and even if you did, this is a pretty clever one.
Years later she is retelling this trick–NOT THE WAY IT HAPPENED… but, the WAY SHE FALSELY REMEMBERS IT!!!
And you have someone like me trying to reconstruct the trick, but its really hard to do when you just have a story that is falsely remembered and no footage. The real magic happens in the mind. Far after the trick is done.
I'll show you another, one that I have done. It is equally very close to miraculous in the mind of the spectator. (I didn't do the smoking bit though)
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=G9P3ef58ymE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DG9P3ef58ymE
This trick makes people's brains explode. It's really happening. The guy isn't in on it.
And this trick is probably the very best example of how psychics work, which is why I include it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
