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Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,14:34) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,10:28) T8: My 3 wishes:
1. IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE?: If its the spirits, they should be able to guide your hands no matter whether you can see or not, but if its people doing it unconsciously, the blindfold will screw things up.
2. Why do you think it doesn't work when the people are blindfolded?
3. Have you ever spent any time studying the ideomotor effect, or questioning how ouiji boards work?
Here they are again.
I would like to change my third question to T8 to this:3. If demons want to communicate with you and they can only do so through this board, my question is why? (did parker brothers make some sort of deal with the underworld, or what.)
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,05:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,14:34) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,10:28) T8: My 3 wishes:
1. IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE?: If its the spirits, they should be able to guide your hands no matter whether you can see or not, but if its people doing it unconsciously, the blindfold will screw things up.
2. Why do you think it doesn't work when the people are blindfolded?
3. Have you ever spent any time studying the ideomotor effect, or questioning how ouiji boards work?
Here they are again.
Perhaps T8 no longer wants to discuss this.Can anyone else take a stab at any of these questions? (The first two in particular).
DAvid.We know that the egyptians worships satan,and their magicians work with the help of statan and his princess.
But God showed them and us; that he is stronger,for moses work by Gods power.The magicians snakes were swollowed up by moses snake.
We have magicians today using the same power;all they have to do is sell their souls to satan,like many famous singers do.
This guy can read minds,he can levitate someone in the air.
He can go through the glas window,and not on stage,but in public.He could put a phone inside a glass bottle,he could squeeze a coin through glass,in the open.
He can put his hand through glass in few of the camera in public.I know David copperfield but he does everything on stage.
I think I saw him go through the great wall of china sometime ago,but it was kinda secretive,not open.wakeup.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2012,08:19) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,14:34) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2012,10:28) T8: My 3 wishes:
1. IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE?: If its the spirits, they should be able to guide your hands no matter whether you can see or not, but if its people doing it unconsciously, the blindfold will screw things up.
2. Why do you think it doesn't work when the people are blindfolded?
3. Have you ever spent any time studying the ideomotor effect, or questioning how ouiji boards work?
Here they are again.
Perhaps T8 no longer wants to discuss this.Can anyone else take a stab at any of these questions? (The first two in particular).
Why would you think that? I just don't want to waste my time answering questions in my day. As long as it is not too time consuming, I am happy to answer any question.1) I would say that is correct. In my case, we didn't use a board and the spirit still broke the laws of physics by lifting the glass into the air. In saying that, my guess is that such activity is mainly fraudulent, but in the experience I had with my friend it was indisputable proof that something happened that was supernatural. No magicians were involved, no hypnotism, and had to clean up the glass afterwards. It probably would have worked if we were blindfolded too because sight was not needed, except to observe.
2) Don't know if it doesn't work or not. Maybe it does. How do you know it doesn't work in all cases. It certainly wouldn't work where fraud is present. Maybe spirits that possess people use their senses as a way to engage in this world. Lots of things you could say here david and not enough research to say it works or it doesn't I suspect.
3) No never researched the ideomotor effect. I am sure that it is likley something that is true in certain circumstances. However, it likely does not span all experiences and I bet it doesn't explain all phenomena. I mean when a believer has a vision is that the ideomotor effect. I found out the other day that there was a medical term for people who see visions and hear God's voice. Why is that a condition? Because unbelievers have no other choice but to say it is a condition or concede that such things do happen.
We live in a world where there is a battle in the spiritual over the souls of men. This battle is real and shows it self into the seen world in a myriad of ways, such as demons talking through people as we read about in scripture, e.g., 'we are legion'. Scientific, psychological or medical research and terms do not explain everything that happens. Sometimes experiences are just what they appear to be. People who believe there is a scientific term for everything are often unbelievers wanting to label things in a way that makes them feel that they understand the world and the mind. It also makes them comfortable because if believing in God or spiritual things as a medical condition means that such things are not real and any challenge posed to them in these realms can be safely ignored and they can continue in blissful ignorance.
To some degree I think you fit in here david. I can only speak for myself to be sure, but I know I have a real relationship with the Almighty. He has done real miracles, given me real experiences and visions and answered prayer even when it seemed impossible. I have also had real attacks from the enemy just as the apostles and other well known persons did in the New Testament. Can you say the same. Do you hear the voice of God. Or do you have a religion that is all head knowledge and no experience. Perhaps you are threatened by experiences. And why does Jesus say, “away from me I never knew you” to some. Perhaps it is because all they have is head knowledge and no real experience and relationship to speak of.
And yes I know that we are discussing an experience that is not of God, but I think your view that it is all explained in medical or physical terms is truly inadequate. When Satan for example appeared to Jesus to tempt him, was that because he had a medical condition? If not, then why is it a condition when it is anyone else having an experience whether it is God or the enemy?
Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things.
Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Many Atheists write off God because of such things and I think you write off the whole idea that these condemned practices as not real based on a similar thought patterns to an Atheist. Different subject yes, but same thought pattern in arriving at your conclusion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2012,13:50) This thread has been wonderful. Thanks for bringing it up, Guncher. 
There are few threads where I read every word of every post, but this is now one of them.t8, I've had TWO similar “sinking into Hades” experiences, one which the wake up tapping was done by my sister. I've also seen the Ouija board at work, spelling out things I didn't even know (how much loose change I had in my pocket – down to the penny – even though I didn't CONSCIOUSLY have any idea.)
But I also see where David is coming from. I believe 99% of “magic” is the result of the many tricks David has graciously outlined for us. But we all know from scripture that our struggle is against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph 6:12)
If these forces aren't even real, or can't do a single thing to influence our lives, then why is our struggle against them? Of course they are real.
So IMO, at least 1% of these “miracles” or “signs” or “wonders” are real. Some of those are caused by God and His representatives, and others are caused by Satan and his representatives. Remember that God never said sorcery and fortune telling was a scam. He just told us not to be involved with those who do these things. There are apparently certain things our God doesn't want us to know, or be involved in – despite the fact those things are real. (Consider how angry God got at certain angels for showing humans some secrets of the heavenly realms – as recorded in Enoch.)
These are just my humble opinions.
Good post Mike. It is balanced and doesn't try to explain everything as being in the mind of the person.Of course there is a bigger world out there that we cannot see and I agree that it is silly to make everything fit certain dogmas or conditions.
Finally, we are warned in dabbling in such things for a good reason and I can vouch for that personally too. There are things that can destroy us or harm us if we get involved.
Quote We have magicians today using the same power WAKEUP, if you could provide just one example, that would be helpful.
Quote The magicians snakes were swollowed up by moses snake. What is interest about this is that there are people who do this effect today–street performers in some countries.
Certain animals such as snakes (birds especially), when you bend their head back, they to not a sleep or trance like state and don't move until they are snapped out of it. (Not sure what purpose it seves)
You can make a snake appear ridged or like a pole until you jar it and it will seem to come to life or transform into a snake. Works really really well with birds though. You can take a pigeon, slowly bend its head back, and lay it in the grass. When someone walks up, the magician says: so sad, look. ( a dead bird). H gently picks it up. Gives it a shake and it appears to be back to life. Freezing flys Ina fridge and warming them in your had does the same thing.
Possibly the magicians of the Egyptian time did it the way I described. (It's still done that way today)
In Daniel, did anyone notice that Daniel was made chief of the magic practicing priests, astrologers, sorcerers, etc? (This doesn't mean he was one of course, but was merely chief of them, and all wise men in Babylon)
Quote We have magicians today using the same power;all they have to do is sell their souls to satan,like many famous singers do. This guy can read minds,he can levitate someone in the air.
He can go through the glas window,and not on stage,but in public.He could put a phone inside a glass bottle,he could squeeze a coin through glass,in the open.
He can put his hand through glass in few of the camera in public.Of course he can't actually do any of these things. Did you go back and watch him throw the phone in his pocket at 16 min mark? Watch it a couple times.
Quote “1)…No magicians were involved…” T8, you are silly. For TEN? years you probably thought “no magicians were involved” with this forum. You were wrong about that. Why be so certain about this?
Quote It probably would have worked if we were blindfolded too because sight was not needed, except to observe. That would be a first. You should have gotten it on camera. You could have made a million dollars.
You say it probably would have worked because sight WASNT needed. Yet, I presume either your eyes or the other persons eyes were open. So, what could you possibly be basing that on? I'll bet you $1000 you can't do it with your eyes blindfolded.
Quote Don't know if it doesn't work or not. Maybe it does You might not now, but I do. It simply hasn't ever worked. If it did, I would be extremely impressed, and probably go around showing atheists. It doesn't work that way. Never has. Not by anyone. Ever.
Quote 2) Don't know if it doesn't work or not. Maybe it does. How do you know it doesn't work in all cases. It certainly wouldn't work where fraud is present. Maybe spirits that possess people use their senses as a way to engage in this world. Lots of things you could say here david and not enough research to say it works or it doesn't I suspect. 100% of the time it doesn't work blindfolded, unless you are a magician and have gimmicked blindfolds or know a thing or two about how to get around normal blindfolds.
Research: we only need it to work once to prove that it works. Yet, over and over it has seemed to work until the people are blindfolded. It's also best to blindfold them and then secretly turn the board around. This way they believe they know where the letters are, but of course spell gibberish or mostly go to empty spaces. ALL tests done blindfolded do not work.
Quote 3) No never researched the ideomotor effect. I am sure that it is likley something that is true in certain circumstances. However, it likely does not span all experiences and I bet it doesn't explain all phenomena. I mean when a believer has a vision is that the ideomotor effect. I found out the other day that there was a medical term for people who see visions and hear God's voice. Why is that a condition? Because unbelievers have no other choice but to say it is a condition or concede that such things do happen. No one thinks it explains all phenomena. Just things like dowsing or ouiji boards or the pendulum.
You seem to be wanting to talk about unrelated things. If you want to discuss visions, that's different. Not related to the ideomotor effect.
Quote We live in a world where there is a battle in the spiritual over the souls of men. This battle is real and shows it self into the seen world in a myriad of ways, such as demons talking through people as we read about in scripture, e.g., 'we are legion'. Scientific, psychological or medical research and terms do not explain everything that happens. Sometimes experiences are just what they appear to be. People who believe there is a scientific term for everything are often unbelievers wanting to label things in a way that makes them feel that they understand the world and the mind. It also makes them comfortable because if believing in God or spiritual things as a medical condition means that such things are not real and any challenge posed to them in these realms can be safely ignored and they can continue in blissful ignorance. T8,
Let me put this in terms you understand. You know a ton about computers I imagine. I know nothing. Here is what I suggest: demons are responsible for how they work.
You may say: “no, that's silly, I know how they work. Many people who are trained know how they work.” At which point I would quote back to you the words I quoted above.
Which is more amazing?–a board that appears to do what you think it does? Or this tablet in my hand that answers any question I have? Where does it store the info? How does it find it so fast? Demons! How else? You may say you have some scientific answer, and that answer might be true in some cases. But, you can't know everything, and there are miracles in the bible and I think the miracle I'm using now is impossible scientifically to explain.
You understand that computers are just technology. A person can take them apart and figure out how they work. Other people who study other things know and it is obvious to them that ouiji boards work on principles of self deception, Forer effect, hits and misses, ideomotor effect, stooges 1/3 of the time (the other guy playing a prank) etc.
Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture I don't have to know the answer to that to study magicians today and know how they work.
Quote Also ask yourself this question. If all that stuff is not real and can be explained as idiotic or as delusional, then why is it condemned practice in scripture. I think it is condemned not because it is not real, but because it is real and hence why there are serious warnings given about getting involved in such things. Okay enough said about that. I still want to reiterate that yes I do believe that there is an industry out there that exploits all this for money and is largely based on fraud. But we could say the same thing about God. God is real. Visions are real. Prayer is real. But there is also a huge industry that exploits these for money too and it is largely fraudulent as well.
Acts 13:10
Elymas the SORCERER was full of “FRAUD” and villianyHe was a “sorcerer”
He was using “fraud”
He was a sorcerer
He was using fraud.
If he was using fraud, then this makes me think that he was just like exploitive magicians today–fraudulent.
t8, or anyone else. Wondering if you could comment on this?
Quote Many Atheists write off God because of such things and I think you write off the whole idea that these condemned practices as not real based on a similar thought patterns to an Atheist. Different subject yes, but same thought pattern in arriving at your conclusion. t8, as I said before, I was desperately wanting them to be real. When I was seven, I would come home and watch this magic show. A guy was moving objects with his mind. (Not really though). I, being seven, wondered if this was possible. As much time as I spend thinking about the bible, I spend almost an equal amount of time solving problems that are close to impossible. I can easily provide a thousand things to you that you would have absolutely no way of understanding, without explanation. You, not knowing how something works, does not make it supernatural. I feel like I should just start giving examples one by one. But it will wreck “magic” for you. Half of me would hate to do that to you.
Quote 1. IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE?: If its the spirits, they should be able to guide your hands no matter whether you can see or not, but if its people doing it unconsciously, the blindfold will screw things up. –me
T8:
“I would say that is correct.”Well then. We have an extremely easy way to prove or disprove this. Luckily, it's been done over and over again by magicians (and others) who were annoyed with people believing spirits were behind this.
Experiment:
Have two people that don't like to prank others and who aren't trouble makers sit down with the board. You watch. Spend time them getting used to the board. Then, blindfold them. Ask a few questions. It will still seem to work. Now, without them noticing, rotate board. IF IT NO LONGER WORKS, then it clearly WASNT spirits in the first place. If it does still work, a lot of people will be extremely interested in this, including me.
Quote We live in a world where there is a battle in the spiritual over the souls of men. This battle is real and shows it self into the seen world in a myriad of ways, such as demons talking through people as we read about in scripture, e.g., 'we are legion'. Scientific, psychological or medical research and terms do not explain everything that happens. Sometimes experiences are just what they appear to be. People who believe there is a scientific term for everything are often unbelievers wanting to label things in a way that makes them feel that they understand the world and the mind. It also makes them comfortable because if believing in God or spiritual things as a medical condition means that such things are not real and any challenge posed to them in these realms can be safely ignored and they can continue in blissful ignorance. I find the words BLISSFUL IGNORANCE interesting.
One of us studies these things. The other hasn't studied them, and doesn't seem to want to.
I really don't think you understand how much I wanted such things to be real. I became a magician as a side effect of this. When you study and come to know, you may as well use that skill. I literally spent the first half of my life searching out such things to find “real” magic today.
It's a great irony that the group that knows there isn't real magic is the group known as “magicians,” and from what I can tell, the group that wanted there to be real magic. I had my first magic book when I was seven. It was quite a but beyond my reading level at the time but I forced myself to read because I had to know the answers.
t8, I, far more than you, wanted magic to exist today. I looked everywhere, all the time. I checked under every rock. I found many diabolically clever and ingenious things. Most people don't stand a chance. They see and say: that's impossible. Well, it isn't.
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