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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,14:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,04:40) Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
DAVIDMt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.see how the devil uses true scriptures ,but the way he use them his evil or a lie, SO THE TRUTH IN THE HANDS OF A LIAR WILL BECOME LIES
Terrarica, I'm not totally sure what this line of reasoning has to do with what we are discussing.Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:39) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,14:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,04:40) Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
DAVIDMt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.see how the devil uses true scriptures ,but the way he use them his evil or a lie, SO THE TRUTH IN THE HANDS OF A LIAR WILL BECOME LIES
Terrarica, I'm not totally sure what this line of reasoning has to do with what we are discussing.
You don,t know and yet you speak of psychics ,demon,To me there are only two things truth and lies ,
And no combination of both his goodQuote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:14) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
If the psychic is fraudulent, then the one who believes him is deceiving himself.Which demonic miracles exist today?
David,Lets say a psychic is actually a magician. It is still the demon that practices deceit.
You are trying to prove as you cannot prove there are not some legitimate psychics.
it just does not interest me enough to look into the matter any further.
You reason there are not but your case is circumstantial.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,16:01) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:39) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,14:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,04:40) Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
DAVIDMt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.see how the devil uses true scriptures ,but the way he use them his evil or a lie, SO THE TRUTH IN THE HANDS OF A LIAR WILL BECOME LIES
Terrarica, I'm not totally sure what this line of reasoning has to do with what we are discussing.
You don,t know and yet you speak of psychics ,demon,To me there are only two things truth and lies ,
And no combination of both his good
Right. Lying is bad. Agreed. I find self deception to be also bad.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2013,16:11) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:14) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
If the psychic is fraudulent, then the one who believes him is deceiving himself.Which demonic miracles exist today?
David,Lets say a psychic is actually a magician. It is still the demon that practices deceit.
You are trying to prove as you cannot prove there are not some legitimate psychics.
it just does not interest me enough to look into the matter any further.
You reason there are not but your case is circumstantial.
Kerwin, here is what we have:You, who want to believe real psychics exist today, but at the same time do not want to look into it further, as you say.
And me, who also wanted to believe, looked into it for a lifetime, and therefore find it hard to believe, as I have only seen tens of thousands of fakes.
My case isn't circumstantial. FOR YOUR CASE, the evidence only exists when no cameras are on, there are no scientists around, there are no “experts” (magicians) watching. There is no hard evidence for your case.
Kerwin, what is the name of a legitimate psychic that exists today?
Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,18:23) Which demonic miracles exist today?
Dunno, but scripture tells us that even at the end, they will do false miracles and scripture is good enough for me.Going back to the experience I mentioned, that was likely the work of demons, unless the dead can do that which I doubt.
Demons aren't dogs that fetch sticks when you ask them, rather demons and Satan have an agenda and use men to do their will. Perhaps men offer them the interface into our physical reality.
I am not really that well versed in how they operate because it is of little interest to me.
Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,05:51) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,16:01) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:39) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,14:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,04:40) Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
DAVIDMt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.see how the devil uses true scriptures ,but the way he use them his evil or a lie, SO THE TRUTH IN THE HANDS OF A LIAR WILL BECOME LIES
Terrarica, I'm not totally sure what this line of reasoning has to do with what we are discussing.
You don,t know and yet you speak of psychics ,demon,To me there are only two things truth and lies ,
And no combination of both his good
Right. Lying is bad. Agreed. I find self deception to be also bad.
agreed ,but it would be a lie any way ,but there are many things that can dividing us in believes or understanding ,but at the end of the tunnel it is still the same light we have followed ,we have to overcome all what his flesh ,
this is not a easy task,
while on the other end we have men driven by the flesh (meaning the exploitation of all what flesh can do and accomplish,)
street magic ,and technology is a part of it ,also Psychics, do to the fact that the emotions and feelings of the flesh can be over run and exploited quite easily ,
Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2013,16:11) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:14) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
If the psychic is fraudulent, then the one who believes him is deceiving himself.Which demonic miracles exist today?
David,Lets say a psychic is actually a magician. It is still the demon that practices deceit.
You are trying to prove as you cannot prove there are not some legitimate psychics.
it just does not interest me enough to look into the matter any further.
You reason there are not but your case is circumstantial.
Kerwin, here is what we have:You, who want to believe real psychics exist today, but at the same time do not want to look into it further, as you say.
And me, who also wanted to believe, looked into it for a lifetime, and therefore find it hard to believe, as I have only seen tens of thousands of fakes.
My case isn't circumstantial. FOR YOUR CASE, the evidence only exists when no cameras are on, there are no scientists around, there are no “experts” (magicians) watching. There is no hard evidence for your case.
Kerwin, what is the name of a legitimate psychic that exists today?
David,There are several billion human beings in the earth; and of them you claim to have verified thousands are fakirs. Even if you are correct in your assessment you are claiming that what is true of drop of water is true of the ocean. That is clearly a case based on circumstantial evidence.
As for looking for a witch, I see no need to do so.
I do know a little about necromancy and most of those that I have heard claim to practice that evil art simply do not know the basic tools of the trade. That does not mean that there are none who have such knowledge and even more.
Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,14:01) My case isn't circumstantial. FOR YOUR CASE, the evidence only exists when no cameras are on, there are no scientists around, there are no “experts” (magicians) watching. There is no hard evidence for your case.
david, if you are honest with yourself regarding your statement, you will recognise a complete denial of the fact that demons do not perform for cameras and they do not appear to strive to be believed in.Stealth is more likely their style and they only gave their names to Jesus when he commanded them. Otherwise they were hidden away and affecting people in bad ways that showed up as sicknesses or illnesses to our eyes.
Why be surprised then that they do not perform at your bidding? Do you think they don't notice the cameras or something. You might be confused by dogs and dolphins that perform tricks for men. Is not Satan much older than us. And if it were not for God, we would be certainly defeated by him. In short he may have rebelled against God, but he is not the complete idiot you seem to expect.
And if scripture says that they possess men and do false miracles even right up until the end of this age, then the only conclusion is unbelief in what is written.
I am not really that well versed in how they operate because it is of little interest to me.–t8
it just does not interest me enough to look into the matter any further.–kerwin
The people who have the most interest in such things are the very ones who perpetrate such deceptions. They are the ones that are interested. And they are the ones that know. It seems that if you want to believe something, you shouldn't be too interested in it or how it works.
Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,15:37) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:19) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:55) I don't passively watch a “miracle” and just say: “wow, I don't know how that works so it is therefore supernatural.” That would be the argument from ignorance fallacy. It's a logical fallacy and not proper thinking, for those who like reality and are truly interested in truth.
I have lost count of the times when I prayed for the most unlikely but necessary thing, and God delivered it to me.They were miracles and the fruit of a living faith.
No magician, physic, or any person was involved either.
I think that you seem to boil everything down to a magic trick or chance. Take that thinking to the next logical step and the whole universe came about by chance.
A few posts back:“My big problem is that generally the people who believe or think they see such things are really never people who have studied deception or the methods used by those who wish to deceive, and generally are strongly biased, wanting to believe in something, looking for meaning, and finding meaning in coincidence, simple magic tricks, simple psychology, bumps in the night, or stories which people love to pass along.”
A person who is always praying for many things will experience many “hits” and many more misses, and will ignore the misses.
As I asked before (not sure if you answered) when 3million JW go to people's houses on Saturday and each speak to a few people, you are going to have thousands of people who were:
–praying for help or answers
–praying for help the day or two beforeAnd so, a percentage of these people will look at that as a miracle.
Is it a miracle, or is it simple math and probability? What do you think?
People really really don't study probability and so coincidences confuse them, ESPECIALLY given that they have bias for belief.
No magician or psychic was involved in GOd apparently answering these people's prayers and sending Jw to them with bible in hand. Yet, psychic techniques are what deceive people into thinking this is miraculous and not math–counting the hits, forgetting the misses.
Only one story needs to be told of one man who was praying for help, and this encourages everyone. But what of the millions of others who were praying for help and no one knocked on their door? We MUST count the misses if we want to understand reality and TRUTH.
When you pray, you look everywhere for answers or a response and are perhaps subconsciously looking everywhere. Your mind is great at making connections. Maybe God answered your prayer. Maybe you prayed enough about enough things and just focused on what appeared miraculous and forgot the rest. Either way, I know the latter happens a lot. It's just math. It must happen often given the numbers.
People don't understand probability. They are awfully bad at it.
t8,Were these miracles, when thousands pray and millions find them? Or, is it just math, and psychic type principles at work–focusing on the hits and ignoring the many misses?
What do you think?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 24 2013,14:16) Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 23 2013,16:11) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,10:23) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:14) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
If the psychic is fraudulent, then the one who believes him is deceiving himself.Which demonic miracles exist today?
David,Lets say a psychic is actually a magician. It is still the demon that practices deceit.
You are trying to prove as you cannot prove there are not some legitimate psychics.
it just does not interest me enough to look into the matter any further.
You reason there are not but your case is circumstantial.
Kerwin, here is what we have:You, who want to believe real psychics exist today, but at the same time do not want to look into it further, as you say.
And me, who also wanted to believe, looked into it for a lifetime, and therefore find it hard to believe, as I have only seen tens of thousands of fakes.
My case isn't circumstantial. FOR YOUR CASE, the evidence only exists when no cameras are on, there are no scientists around, there are no “experts” (magicians) watching. There is no hard evidence for your case.
Kerwin, what is the name of a legitimate psychic that exists today?
David,There are several billion human beings in the earth; and of them you claim to have verified thousands are fakirs. Even if you are correct in your assessment you are claiming that what is true of drop of water is true of the ocean. That is clearly a case based on circumstantial evidence.
As for looking for a witch, I see no need to do so.
I do know a little about necromancy and most of those that I have heard claim to practice that evil art simply do not know the basic tools of the trade. That does not mean that there are none who have such knowledge and even more.
Witches can't do “real” magic either. Magick or majick. Sure, they like to dance around naked holding chickens in blood or whatever and this freaks people out, but it doesn't mean they have magical powers.Ok, I've seen one drop in the ocean. Has ANYONE seen a genuine drop of water, a real psychic? The closer you look at this, the more it starts to feel like Santa Claus. Sure, there are stories. Sure, when you were a kid your parents created the illusion with bells jingling near the roof. Yes, you have seen images of Santa Claus on TV, but never up close. Further, you started realizing there were some fakes. One after another, you started removing their beards. You started asking them questions about the North Pole and it turns out, they hate snow. Fake after fake after fake. Pretty soon, you can recognize the fakes just by the boots they wear because they all buy their boots at the same store. One day you put on a Santa suit yourself. And then you meet someone who reminds you of something you believed long ago. They say: “Santa is real.” You say: “no, they are all fake.” And the other guy says: “you haven't seen them all. You have only seen a drop in the bucket.” We'll, if Santa is real, show me proof, show me Santa. “Well, all the gifts under the tree.” “And the milk and cookies disappear.” But having watched this quite a while, you know that it isn't real, parents eat the cookies, parents put the gifts under the tree. “Maybe sometimes, but you haven't seen every Santa or every house.”
This is how I feel. I only need to see the real Santa once in his sleigh, flying away. And I've been looking. The sleighs don't fly. Some of them have wires. Most just sit on the snow. It's true that I haven't checked every Santa on the earth, but if there is a real Santa, and not just 20 million fakes, then could someone point him out?
What knowledge do some have that you speak of? What power? What can they do?
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 24 2013,15:41) Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,14:01) My case isn't circumstantial. FOR YOUR CASE, the evidence only exists when no cameras are on, there are no scientists around, there are no “experts” (magicians) watching. There is no hard evidence for your case.
david, if you are honest with yourself regarding your statement, you will recognise a complete denial of the fact that demons do not perform for cameras and they do not appear to strive to be believed in.Stealth is more likely their style and they only gave their names to Jesus when he commanded them. Otherwise they were hidden away and affecting people in bad ways that showed up as sicknesses or illnesses to our eyes.
Why be surprised then that they do not perform at your bidding? Do you think they don't notice the cameras or something. You might be confused by dogs and dolphins that perform tricks for men. Is not Satan much older than us. And if it were not for God, we would be certainly defeated by him. In short he may have rebelled against God, but he is not the complete idiot you seem to expect.
And if scripture says that they possess men and do false miracles even right up until the end of this age, then the only conclusion is unbelief in what is written.
“Demons aren't dogs that fetch sticks when you ask them,…”How do you explain the oiji board? Isnt that exactly how the ouiji board supposedly works? Did Parker brothers make a deal with the demons?
Quote david, if you are honest with yourself regarding your statement, you will recognise a complete denial of the fact that demons do not perform for cameras and they do not appear to strive to be believed in. Why do they mostly mess with Catholics and others that believe in them?
Why wouldn't it be more even, with athiests and scientists equally being attacked by them?
Doesn't it seem they by far mostly bother with those that believe in them?
Quote And if scripture says that they possess men and do false miracles even right up until the end of this age, then the only conclusion is unbelief in what is written. Which scripture is his? Is there more than one? Is it the 1 these one?
david, I believe scripture's account with demons.
I haven't delved into the activity of demons that much to say without a doubt that scripture is right or wrong, but scripture is right according to all other things I have looked at.And as you know, I experienced something myself, and have also experienced many things from God.
I wonder if you have any miracle or experience with God too?
And if not, does that mean that God doesn't do such things?
Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,19:40) Quote And if scripture says that they possess men and do false miracles even right up until the end of this age, then the only conclusion is unbelief in what is written. Which scripture is his? Is there more than one? Is it the 1 these one?
Is one scripture not enough?But demon activity is mentioned in the Book of Acts. And we are told this:
1 Cor 10:20-22 (NIV) … I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
So people can participate with demons as they do with God.
I guess there are plenty of false religions that have so-called miracles.
I guess the difference between you an me is that I am talking about everyday life and things that happen in that context. You are talking about experiments with cameras to see if God or demons will demonstrate things.
I am totally against the latter. That is called testing God. And I would imagine that testing demons is also futile.
Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2013,19:37) “Demons aren't dogs that fetch sticks when you ask them,…” How do you explain the oiji board? Isnt that exactly how the ouiji board supposedly works? Did Parker brothers make a deal with the demons?
The oiji board has little to do with it.
I guess you could use a coin, heads for yes…
A demon might possess a man with a knife, but we don't blame the manufacturer of the knife.However, in one sense perhaps they have done a deal.
How many people who bought one tried to communicate with what is likely to be demons, in exchange for selling what is effectively cardboard.I guess then you being an unbeliever could sell these boards and not feel guilty about the result.
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