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Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,16:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,10:38) Quote would you agree to ; that a lie is only important to a man of truth and that truth is irrelevant to a liar
and that you have only to convince people of ONE lie to make them believe anything else true or false
Not sure I understand your questions. But:
I would say lies are also very important to liars. Maybe more Important.Yes, I suppose the truth is irrelevant to a liar.
(We should perhaps define “liar.” Otherwise, we'll end up in a “if a liar says he is lying, is he telling the truth” paradoxes)
Your last statement seems wrong.
How many lies did Satan tel Eve
In what way would a liar be interested in truth
If you are attempting to make a point or say something, perhaps you could say it more plainly.I think you really should define “liar.” A liar isn't someone whose every statement is a lie.
We are both searching for truth (and reality)
So far, I have found many black ravens. I conclude that most likely all ravens are black. For me, it is logical to believe that this is true and reality until proven otherwise. I, and James invite and encourage anyone to show just one non-black raven.
If it is false that all ravens are black, just show any non-black raven while our eyes are wide open.
Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,12:12) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,16:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,10:38) Quote would you agree to ; that a lie is only important to a man of truth and that truth is irrelevant to a liar
and that you have only to convince people of ONE lie to make them believe anything else true or false
Not sure I understand your questions. But:
I would say lies are also very important to liars. Maybe more Important.Yes, I suppose the truth is irrelevant to a liar.
(We should perhaps define “liar.” Otherwise, we'll end up in a “if a liar says he is lying, is he telling the truth” paradoxes)
Your last statement seems wrong.
How many lies did Satan tel EveIn what way would a liar be interested in truth
If you are attempting to make a point or say something, perhaps you could say it more plainly.I think you really should define “liar.” A liar isn't someone whose every statement is a lie.
We are both searching for truth (and reality)
So far, I have found many black ravens. I conclude that most likely all ravens are black. For me, it is logical to believe that this is true and reality until proven otherwise. I, and James invite and encourage anyone to show just one non-black raven.
If it is false that all ravens are black, just show any non-black raven while our eyes are wide open.
David,Logical used as in logical reasoning is incorrect. Use the word reasonable instead. As the logic that some wondrous powers are frauds therefore all wondrous powers are frauds is flawed.
Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,12:12) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2013,16:06) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,10:38) Quote would you agree to ; that a lie is only important to a man of truth and that truth is irrelevant to a liar
and that you have only to convince people of ONE lie to make them believe anything else true or false
Not sure I understand your questions. But:
I would say lies are also very important to liars. Maybe more Important.Yes, I suppose the truth is irrelevant to a liar.
(We should perhaps define “liar.” Otherwise, we'll end up in a “if a liar says he is lying, is he telling the truth” paradoxes)
Your last statement seems wrong.
How many lies did Satan tel EveIn what way would a liar be interested in truth
If you are attempting to make a point or say something, perhaps you could say it more plainly.I think you really should define “liar.” A liar isn't someone whose every statement is a lie.
We are both searching for truth (and reality)
So far, I have found many black ravens. I conclude that most likely all ravens are black. For me, it is logical to believe that this is true and reality until proven otherwise. I, and James invite and encourage anyone to show just one non-black raven.
If it is false that all ravens are black, just show any non-black raven while our eyes are wide open.
What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lieLike I believe that if you make believe one lie to a person ,you can make him believe almost anything ,for the only reason that he as given in to a lie,if he knows or not,
This is the reason why politician are so successful
And CEOThe truth with your raven ,it should be said this way; that all raven are black by ther nature if their would be one in another color he would be a exception to the nature of that bird, there white lion ,white tigers ,white elephant
Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,18:02) Oh yeah. I can see God, angels, or demons lining up to demonstrate their existence for 1 million dollars. Surely there would be angels or demons out there that could do with a mill.[/quote]
Well, why do demons have to do anything t8? Anything that YOU say: “a demon did that” I can just as easily joke about it and say: “oh, I'm sure demons are lining up to move a marker around a board.”And if you are saying that by doing these things demons are proving their existence, then if they are willing tomdomit to prove to a few people in a room around a ouiji board, why not prove it to a few more people and put a million dollars in the hand of someone they seem to control.
If the love of money is the root of all evil, then I would think demons would want to put money in people's hands to corrupt them.
Wouldn't you think that?
My guess is that demons have too much to lose by going public. It would turn many toward God IMO. A bit like that saying that says Satan's master stroke was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.But they reveal themselves in some situations. Sometimes it might be in similar cases as we see in the bible. Other times might be to people who are susceptible to them because they like evil or control over people and are open to a proposition of some kind.
Whatever the situation, men have seen demons work through people and even Satan himself tempted Jesus face to face so to speak.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2013,20:29) David, Logical used as in logical reasoning is incorrect. Use the word reasonable instead. As the logic that some wondrous powers are frauds therefore all wondrous powers are frauds is flawed.
Well said.Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,20:12) So far, I have found many black ravens. I conclude that most likely all ravens are black. For me, it is logical to believe that this is true and reality until proven otherwise. I, and James invite and encourage anyone to show just one non-black raven. If it is false that all ravens are black, just show any non-black raven while our eyes are wide open.
Sorry dave, had to take you up on that one.Albino Raven.
Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,18:02) Well, why do demons have to do anything t8? Anything that YOU say: “a demon did that” I can just as easily joke about it and say: “oh, I'm sure demons are lining up to move a marker around a board.”
The point is that demons do things and you seem to deny that based on fraud which we all know happens. Your reason is not good enough.And your arguments to date are no different to an Atheists when it comes to spirits.
Spirits work through men and even till the end of the world/age.
“They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.”
Notice how they work miracles.
So all I am saying is that somethings are attributed to them, where I seem to hear you say that nothing is.
Quote Logical used as in logical reasoning is incorrect. Use the word reasonable instead. As the logic that some wondrous powers are frauds therefore all wondrous powers are frauds is flawed. Kerwin, that isn't precisely my reasoning. I don't believe: “some wonders are fraud therefore all wondrous powers are frauds.”
I know the vast vast vast vast majority are frauds and only need to be shown one under actual test conditions that is not. My big problem is that generally the people who believe or think they see such things are really never people who have studied deception or the methods used by those who wish to deceive, and generally are strongly biased, wanting to believe in something, looking for meaning, and finding meaning in coincidence, simple magic tricks, simple psychology, bumps in the night, or stories which people love to pass along.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,19:05) Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2013,20:12) So far, I have found many black ravens. I conclude that most likely all ravens are black. For me, it is logical to believe that this is true and reality until proven otherwise. I, and James invite and encourage anyone to show just one non-black raven. If it is false that all ravens are black, just show any non-black raven while our eyes are wide open.
Sorry dave, had to take you up on that one.Albino Raven.
I now believe all ravens are not black. I stand corrected.Do we see how this works?
Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2013,08:25) t8 David ,does not like you white raven ,:D
I don't mind the white raven. I should have picked something else. I had the raven paradox in my mind when I wrote this.After a quick google search, it seems that the this isn't a “trick,” it is a real albino raven. I of course purchased one, and dissected it and found no trace of trickery or paint. It's real. I stand corrected. And I like knowing things. Thank you.
Knowing there are white ravens sort if wrecks the raven paradox.
Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
Quote This is the reason why politician are so successful And CEO CEO
LAWYER
…
SurgeonThese groups are successful because they have the highest populations of psychopaths. Was just reading a science magazine.
Care giver and nurse were on the bottom of the least, having the least psychopathy.
The focus and lack of empathy seems to help those classes of people be successful (in controlling and dominating other humans).
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2013,18:59) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 21 2013,20:29) David, Logical used as in logical reasoning is incorrect. Use the word reasonable instead. As the logic that some wondrous powers are frauds therefore all wondrous powers are frauds is flawed.
Well said.
Except, it's not technically what I believe.But, going with that, here is the difference between me and you:
You've seen hundreds of frauds and 10's or maybe a hundred things you believe we're supernatural (psychic, ouiji type stuff).
I, however, have only been studying this since the age of 7, when I learned to read by reading magic books. I had to know the TRUTH, and how those psychics worked and how those magicians moved things with their minds and a thousand other puzzling riddles.
I don't passively watch a “miracle” and just say: “wow, I don't know how that works so it is therefore supernatural.” That would be the argument from ignorance fallacy. It's a logical fallacy and not proper thinking, for those who like reality and are truly interested in truth.
I've played this game where for decades I would search out the hardest things, things that are just impossible. Before the Internet, it was MUCH harder. Sometimes, a decade would go by before I came to what should have been obvious solutions, and in retrospect, were simple deceptions.
Most magicians (or, many at least) become magicians because of that one moment, that moment where they are truly amazed, and in awe, and their brain is laughing, because of the absurdity of what just happened in front of them. I am one of these. But over time, the magic becomes harder to see. I just see the palming, and lighting and bevel bases, and psychological manipulations. I try to push those things out of my head the very first time I watch something, so that I too can experience the wonder. It's getting harder to find that wonder for me.
If it exists today, please show me. Find a psychics we will set up what any sane person would consider a more than fair test, where we find someone the “psychic” doesn't actually know, and where he can't be fed information beforehand. And where we count the misses as well as the hits. And where we don't give him information as he's going. They feed off of information. I would be more than happy to setup that test.
Or, maybe it makes more sense for this person to do those exact things in front of the James randi foundation. This way, they get a million dollars.
The greater the claim, the higher the scrutiny.
If I said I'm an accountant, you wouldn't have a problem believing it. If I said I was an actual real life super hero, you would know doubt want proof.
That's all I ask. No one wants the million.
Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:55) I don't passively watch a “miracle” and just say: “wow, I don't know how that works so it is therefore supernatural.” That would be the argument from ignorance fallacy. It's a logical fallacy and not proper thinking, for those who like reality and are truly interested in truth.
I have lost count of the times when I prayed for the most unlikely but necessary thing, and God delivered it to me.They were miracles and the fruit of a living faith.
No magician, physic, or any person was involved either.
I think that you seem to boil everything down to a magic trick or chance. Take that thinking to the next logical step and the whole universe came about by chance.
Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,04:40) Quote What I try to show you is that,a liar (someone not interested in truth but uses truth for his own purpose)This makes his truth to becom a lie Truth doesn't become a lie simply because it is found in the hands of someone at lies. Not sure what you are saying here.
DAVIDMt 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Mt 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’’”Mt 4:6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”
Mt 4:7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’Mt 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
Mt 4:9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Mt 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’’”
Mt 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.see how the devil uses true scriptures ,but the way he use them his evil or a lie, SO THE TRUTH IN THE HANDS OF A LIAR WILL BECOME LIES
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:14) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:33) Now, can someone show me a real psychic?
david, because psychics are not of God and I think the practice is forbidden in scripture, then it stands to reason that they are either frauds or are working with demons.But if all lies are of the evil one, then even fraudulent activity could be demonic.
Demons work through men just the same as God works through men. God is a spirit and there are evil spirits.
Denying that men can be influenced by demons leads to making the argument that men cannot be influenced by God.
And just as God does miracles, so demons do false miracles.
If the psychic is fraudulent, then the one who believes him is deceiving himself.Which demonic miracles exist today?
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,10:19) Quote (david @ Jan. 23 2013,12:55) I don't passively watch a “miracle” and just say: “wow, I don't know how that works so it is therefore supernatural.” That would be the argument from ignorance fallacy. It's a logical fallacy and not proper thinking, for those who like reality and are truly interested in truth.
I have lost count of the times when I prayed for the most unlikely but necessary thing, and God delivered it to me.They were miracles and the fruit of a living faith.
No magician, physic, or any person was involved either.
I think that you seem to boil everything down to a magic trick or chance. Take that thinking to the next logical step and the whole universe came about by chance.
A few posts back:“My big problem is that generally the people who believe or think they see such things are really never people who have studied deception or the methods used by those who wish to deceive, and generally are strongly biased, wanting to believe in something, looking for meaning, and finding meaning in coincidence, simple magic tricks, simple psychology, bumps in the night, or stories which people love to pass along.”
A person who is always praying for many things will experience many “hits” and many more misses, and will ignore the misses.
As I asked before (not sure if you answered) when 3million JW go to people's houses on Saturday and each speak to a few people, you are going to have thousands of people who were:
–praying for help or answers
–praying for help the day or two beforeAnd so, a percentage of these people will look at that as a miracle.
Is it a miracle, or is it simple math and probability? What do you think?
People really really don't study probability and so coincidences confuse them, ESPECIALLY given that they have bias for belief.
No magician or psychic was involved in GOd apparently answering these people's prayers and sending Jw to them with bible in hand. Yet, psychic techniques are what deceive people into thinking this is miraculous and not math–counting the hits, forgetting the misses.
Only one story needs to be told of one man who was praying for help, and this encourages everyone. But what of the millions of others who were praying for help and no one knocked on their door? We MUST count the misses if we want to understand reality and TRUTH.
When you pray, you look everywhere for answers or a response and are perhaps subconsciously looking everywhere. Your mind is great at making connections. Maybe God answered your prayer. Maybe you prayed enough about enough things and just focused on what appeared miraculous and forgot the rest. Either way, I know the latter happens a lot. It's just math. It must happen often given the numbers.
People don't understand probability. They are awfully bad at it.
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