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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2012,11:57) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,22:07) Quote How many cases have you PERSONALLY reviewed, David? Compare that minuscule number to how many cases are out there across the world. Such as? I am fine with starting with kerwins suggestions.
Well, the case of the Ouija Board knowing how much change I had in my pocket hasn't been well documented across the world.In that case, you've made the suggestion that maybe I subconsciously knew how much change I had in my pocket.
Do you suppose that YOU subconsciously know how much loose change is in YOUR pocket right now? Perhaps………. but WHAT do you suppose PRODDED my subconscious to transfer that information to my conscious just in time for me to forcibly and knowingly move the triangle to the right answer?
My point is that you have never studied MY case. And I'm sure there are BILLIONS of them just like mine out there.
Mike. Sorry, didn't see this recent post you were referring to before.I own books on the subconscious mind. I wish I understood it much better.
If we go with the subconscious idea:
Your mind did in fact know the answer, but your conscious mind didn't have easy access to it.
When asked the question, the answer was there, it was just a matter of gaining access to the subconscious.
With the ideomotor effect, the movements are unconscious. Perhaps the unconscious movements are connected to the subconceious mind.
I would be more I pressed if you knew how much change was in someone else's pocket. (Since your mind simply doesn't know that)But still, as I discussed on page 23, if you have 100 people do this experiment, we know that about one of them will get the right answer. It's just math. (If the average person has 1 cent to 1 dollar in change, I have no idea). I would think people would have some idea consciously, so it would be more than 1 out of the hundred getting it right.
But the point is, if we conducted this experiment, in a situation where we create a magical reason for the answers, the one or two or three people who guess right may well believe it was a miracle or magic.
For those people, it's hard to argue against them. But looking at the whole, it becomes more obvious. You are perhaps one of the one or two or three out of a hundred. For every person stuck by lightening, many more aren't. Yet, it isn't a miracle that e one person was struck. When something unlikely happens, it is very often misinterpreted or given meaning, despite there very likely being no meaning, such as our experiment.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,13:38) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,13:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,12:40) Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.
Hi David,T8 was cracking a joke when he said:
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,16:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,19:05) What does AWHN mean.
I'm guessing that HN means Heaven Net.God bless
Ed J
He is good at finding patterns and making connections. I merely point out that many people find false. Patterns and it happens frequently.
Hi David,You did not remember where T8 said the quote that I posted, but I did;
thus proving that I do have the ability to put the correct patterns together.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,21:01) Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2012,18:18) T8, do you believe that psychosis is real?
Do you believe in Voluntary termination of pregnancy?
Well if you mean abortion, then yes.See what I am trying to avoid? No. Okay, I am trying to avoid the connotations that come with what you are saying. Let me explain.
Do I believe that psychosis is real. Yes, if you are willing to understand that such conditions can be caused by demons even today, then yes I believe that there is a term that is used in the medical profession for something that could well be a demon when you dig deeper.
Jesus cast demons out of people that had mental problems. He didn't give them drugs or call it psychosis or any other condition. Was Jesus just ignorant?
Jesus also healed people with medical problems such as the women with an issue of blood. He didn't cast a demon out of her, but did out of the mentally unstable people that called out to him. So was Jesus deluded about demons?
What I am saying david, is that I am with Jesus when it comes to this subject. Would you have told Jesus that casting a demon out was a waste of time because they are psychotic or mentally unstable and not possessed. And what medical term do you give the man who lived in the grave site. Would you say to Jesus that this man needs drugs, not a demon cast out of him.
Your unbelief in demons at work today is on par with Atheists who also believe that.
t8,If you watch that documentary type video I posted in the “faith healing” thread, you would see the type of trickery that faith healers pull off today:
They appear to make the blind see. Fake
They appear to make e deaf hear. Trickery
They appear to heal so,domes spine. Carnival tricks.A lot of the time, these illness that are actually healed today are psychosomatic.
JESUS miracles aren't like that. He did some things that obviously can't ever be explained by natural means. Again, for the 14th time, I am speaking of what is real today, reality, what is true today.
I have never said anything against any healing Jesus did.
If you haven't yet watch the video, you should watch it. It will disgust you. It will make you angry. Maybe you would understand better my passion for fake healers, fake psychics, fake exploitive magic of any kind.
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,14:38) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,13:38) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,13:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,12:40) Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.
Hi David,T8 was cracking a joke when he said:
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,16:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,19:05) What does AWHN mean.
I'm guessing that HN means Heaven Net.God bless
Ed J
He is good at finding patterns and making connections. I merely point out that many people find false. Patterns and it happens frequently.
Hi David,You did not remember where T8 said the quote that I posted, but I did;
thus proving that I do have the ability to put the correct patterns together.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
t8,Ed sees many patterns (finds MEANING) that others simply don't see.
He sees meaning and patterns in numbers.
t8, and mike,
I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong) that you both believe Ed is seeing false patterns, seeing what he wants to see. I believe you both understand that Ed has a belief and looks for only the patterns that confirm that belief and disregard the rest (making note of the “hits” and forgetting the “misses.”)If Ed presents one miraculous pattern, it's very hard to disprove. A rational person MUST consider all the hits and misses. If we just look at one person who read someone's else's mind, by guessing a number between 1 and 100, it seems mores sieve until you realize that you are closing your eyes to the other 99 people. All the meaningless patterns are disregarded by Ed. There must be billions of them. Ed sees the hits. He has trained himself to see the hits.
Ed is better at finding patterns than any of us. The problem is, he sees true patters and also false patterns. (Way too much dopamine)
So much that I would guess he is very close to paranoid a lot of the time. Ed, find some anti-dopamine drugs. Your life will become less scary, but the patterns will also disappear.
I find the subject of false memories quite interesting. Experimentation has been done one this to the point where we have a pretty good recipe for creating false memories in people:
Point out to the person that the memory you want to implant is plausible
Point out that it could have happened
Use guided imagery, suggesting that they imagine how it might have happened.What is interesting about this, is, you can create a false memory in someone that will actually affect their behaviour. They start out by filling out a survey which includes them checking a box that says how much they love strawberry ice cream. About 25% of people can then be prompted to remember something that never happened: they got sick after earring strawberry ice cream when they were young. The fascinating part is that many of see will then act on that false memory and decide they don't like the strawberry ice cream they just said they like minutes before.
The famous “mall experiment” I think has much higher percentage. It's so easy to convince people that something happened that never actually did. And the more they play that false memory over and over in their mind, the stronger it becomes, to the point where they absolutely swear they know it happened. It's as real as any other memory.
I almost feel like creating a separate thread for this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=61oPDwoVk-c
Memory test.
Watch the above video. Do not read the post below until after you watch the videos you can if you want, but then it will sort of ruin the effect if you want to try it later. Watch video above. Don't read next post until after. Or, either way.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,10:49) I find the subject of false memories quite interesting. Experimentation has been done one this to the point where we have a pretty good recipe for creating false memories in people: Point out to the person that the memory you want to implant is plausible
Point out that it could have happened
Use guided imagery, suggesting that they imagine how it might have happened.What is interesting about this, is, you can create a false memory in someone that will actually affect their behaviour. They start out by filling out a survey which includes them checking a box that says how much they love strawberry ice cream. About 25% of people can then be prompted to remember something that never happened: they got sick after earring strawberry ice cream when they were young. The fascinating part is that many of see will then act on that false memory and decide they don't like the strawberry ice cream they just said they like minutes before.
The famous “mall experiment” I think has much higher percentage. It's so easy to convince people that something happened that never actually did. And the more they play that false memory over and over in their mind, the stronger it becomes, to the point where they absolutely swear they know it happened. It's as real as any other memory.
I almost feel like creating a separate thread for this.
DYou know that you are a victim of your own making ,this means while you growing up you pick lot of garbage up from all you meet first your parents and family,because if they are not true and stable to them selves how could you pick anything out of it
After a while growing up your making now your destiny in your mind and heart,setting what will be the things you will accept as truth and those you do not,door close and door open,Many people there for will not believe wen you tell them the truth,but will accept lies,this is because they have made up in their mind what is true and what is not :this does not mean that they do not understand the truth but do not care about that truth,and so on,
Now take a true godly believer that totally depend on God and his wisdom learned in Gods written words, this person does not live in a lie,and learn to see the relevance of thing the origins of them,but all as to be filtered by Gods word and so can not be deceived ,for he worship the only true God there his,
Something to think about
See video above.
One way that some TV mentalists work their “magic” is based on the above. It's not the principle of the faulty memory that is of interest, but rather the idea of implanting a word in a persons mind that you want them to think of. These magicians are not so much reading your mind, as they are telling you the word that they have put in your mind, or one of the words, without actually saying the word. it doesn't always work, which makes it seem even more real.
It may work because the subconscious mind has picked up on the commonality, clear and present connection between much of the things the performer has been saying. While the conscious mind isn't aware of it, the subconscious mind is. So, when you believe you are randomly thinking of any word that just popped into your mind, you do well to ask yourself why that word popped into your mind. Advertising works.
The performer of course would put just read the words, but would use these words over a little time, perhaps with a story, but to make it more effective, the story would have nothing to do with the word you want them to think of, and even the words you are using to make them think of that word, might be synonyms of the word you want, making it less obvious.
It is a truly brilliant principle, one that few use, and one that seems to make people believe that mentalists are psychics.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FEpdTZGfxCQ
A shortened clip of someone doing a modified version of what I suggested above.
Memory and belief.
I listened to the most fascinating experiment a couple of days ago. People were given a survey of moral questions. They filled it out but as they turned the page, the pages were secretly glued so that they stuck together, and the result was that when they looked back, 2/3 of their answers were changed to the exact OPPOSITE of what they stated. For example, if one of the statements say that something should be “forbidden” then that word was changed to “permitted.”
The results were TERRIFYING. 70% of them accepted many of the changed beliefs. And when asked, they now were adamant and argued in favor of their new moral belief.
The entire reason that they believed the new belief was right? Because they thought that it was what they believed, even though it wasnt. People believe that a belief is right BECAUSE they believe they believed it. And since they think they are rational and they believe the belief, it must be right. Despite minutes earlier saying they believed something else.
Astonishing
Ridiculous.
Terrifying.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,14:47) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,14:38) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,13:38) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 28 2012,13:25) Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,12:40) Just a minute ago, T8 thought he saw something he didn't see.
Hi David,T8 was cracking a joke when he said:
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,16:56) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,19:05) What does AWHN mean.
I'm guessing that HN means Heaven Net.God bless
Ed J
He is good at finding patterns and making connections. I merely point out that many people find false. Patterns and it happens frequently.
Hi David,You did not remember where T8 said the quote that I posted, but I did;
thus proving that I do have the ability to put the correct patterns together.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
t8,Ed sees many patterns (finds MEANING) that others simply don't see.
He sees meaning and patterns in numbers.
t8, and mike,
I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong) that you both believe Ed is seeing false patterns, seeing what he wants to see. I believe you both understand that Ed has a belief and looks for only the patterns that confirm that belief and disregard the rest (making note of the “hits” and forgetting the “misses.”)If Ed presents one miraculous pattern, it's very hard to disprove. A rational person MUST consider all the hits and misses. If we just look at one person who read someone's else's mind, by guessing a number between 1 and 100, it seems mores sieve until you realize that you are closing your eyes to the other 99 people. All the meaningless patterns are disregarded by Ed. There must be billions of them. Ed sees the hits. He has trained himself to see the hits.
Ed is better at finding patterns than any of us. The problem is, he sees true patters and also false patterns. (Way too much dopamine)
So much that I would guess he is very close to paranoid a lot of the time. Ed, find some anti-dopamine drugs. Your life will become less scary, but the patterns will also disappear.
Hi David,Don't worry, what you say doesn't scare me. And if you want
to discuss the matter with me, here is the thread… (Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgDavid,
There were a number of profession mind doctors present that witnessed the event. They may have taken a picture for all I know, though doctors are reluctant to take pictures and I understand “Julia” is a pseudonym of the victim's name. I doubt a picture would convinced any of the that did not believe it was possible in the first place.
I prefer hard sciences but psychologists are prone to use methods that almost always leave their conclusions open to doubt. In this case I don't believe they checked for trickery; as it was not reported that they did.
From what I have heard the original article was agreed on by 2 or 3 reliable(by the point of view of this world) witnesses. So I am going to say it was observed just as the witnesses account says. The observation may have been caused by hysterics or mass hallucinations but those are things psychologists are better equipped to deal with.
It is another case of a link between demon possession and culture.
Here is an article about the effect of culture and the diagnosis of mental diseases.
Quote (david @ Nov. 28 2012,17:40) t8, If you watch that documentary type video I posted in the “faith healing” thread, you would see the type of trickery that faith healers pull off today:
They appear to make the blind see. Fake
They appear to make e deaf hear. Trickery
They appear to heal so,domes spine. Carnival tricks.A lot of the time, these illness that are actually healed today are psychosomatic.
JESUS miracles aren't like that. He did some things that obviously can't ever be explained by natural means. Again, for the 14th time, I am speaking of what is real today, reality, what is true today.
I have never said anything against any healing Jesus did.
If you haven't yet watch the video, you should watch it. It will disgust you. It will make you angry. Maybe you would understand better my passion for fake healers, fake psychics, fake exploitive magic of any kind.
david, you deny that these things can happen today because of your belief system. This is the major influence because what you believe is the most powerful influence of all as it is the basis by which you perceive reality.You have head the saying that there is no fake $3 note because there is no real $3 note. Well what you think of as fake must exist in real terms too.
And you believe the gifts have ceased even in light of the fact that the Spirit will be with us even unto the end, and Jesus also said that greater things will we do because he has gone to the Father.
Nobody is denying that there are false miracles and wonders. That is a given because there is so much false things in the world and deceivers that want to make money from posing as men of God. But an even bigger reason why there is so much deception is because of the denominational system that you yourself subscribe to.
Let me explain. When you hold a meeting on Sunday or any other day, you fit God into a 1 or 2 hour session per week. During that time, God is expected to jump through hoops. But God is not the servant of man, and thus to fill up the 2 hours with God moving on the stage in front of the congregation in whatever fashion that fits in your doctrine, certain things are manufactured consciously even unconsciously as there is an expectation to fulfill. What if God did nothing, would nothing happen in that 2 hours? Probably no. That 2 hours would be filled with the things of man.
Now speaking on the conscience. You make the point that many things are in the mind. And that is true. But not all is of the mind. Truth is greater than our mind and we cannot put that which is true into the delusions of men's minds.
At some point you have to admit that no all is delusion and saying that it is, then leads you to the point where all is vain and impossible and so we might as well all give up.
Far from it. There is true faith and there are true signs and wonders. If you are true then you recognise that which is true. And although we are not perfect and may not recognise straight away, we who are led by the Spirit are led into ALL truth and so we will arrive to the truth in all things given enough time.
To call the gifts of God's Spirit demonic is a dangerous place to be david. Not only is it insulting to God, but it is the will of the Devil because he would wish that all believers were not equipped with the gifts so as to give him more reign over men.
In all your talk david you cannot disprove that what you have as physical explanations is not first being done in the unseen as described in scripture. You are only explaining the physical. But things are usually deeper than you think. How many times does man have to learn that when he puts a boundary on something that later he finds that the boundary is his own mind. Things are much deeper and bigger than you think. Denying this and thinking you can explain everything in psychological terms shows that you trust your own understanding above all things. Hence you have no faith in what is written if your own mind is the truth.
T8, are you seriously not going to acknowledge what you did? Maybe say it was a mistake?
I'm sure it wasn't on purpose, because that would just make you a bad person.
But, you should at least acknowledge what you did yesterday. I found it so interesting on so many levels.
T8 posted:
Quote “Now let's go back to your comment, “I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone”. This sounds very familiar to me.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Can you see the similarity.
david, no amount of self promotion and shouting about how you are the expert of experts is going to change a person who has experienced something first hand and is sure of what he experienced. Likewise, no amount of scientific data or Atheistic reasoning is going to sway me away from belief in God. And why is that? because I have experienced God and even if I gave the Atheist argument a 10% chance of being true, then I would still be a fool to give up on God after experiencing him would I not? And the fact that these experiences cannot be compared to anything the world offers means that all the more I would be a fool to believe the self appointed expert Atheist to deny an experience that was the best thing I have experienced ever. “
t8 clearly crossed an ethical or moral line here. Right Mike? (I don't care, personally, but I just want fair play and a realization that T8 CAN SEE THINGS THAT JUST AREN'T THERE)
WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID in full:
WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IN FULL (nov 27):
Quote “This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.” The bold is what T8 quoted me saying.
The underline is what I said in full.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.
T8 sometimes sees what he wants to see even when it is completely not in line with reality.
Mike, we are all imperfect. We all make mistakes in perception. t8 just made one.
If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
David,
An atheist of today would claim Jesus used trickery. The miracle of water to wine was simply a substitution of wine for water. Mary, being his mother, was in on the trick.
Can you prove such an individual is wrong?
Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,03:48) WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IN FULL (nov 27): Quote “This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.” The bold is what T8 quoted me saying.
The underline is what I said in full.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.
T8 sometimes sees what he wants to see even when it is completely not in line with reality.
Mike, we are all imperfect. We all make mistakes in perception. t8 just made one.
If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
Davidcan you point out what is it that t8 says and did that is so importante because I cannot see it ,
I know my english need to be improve so show it to me in common words ,thank you
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2012,04:02) David, An atheist of today would claim Jesus used trickery. The miracle of water to wine was simply a substitution of wine for water. Mary, being his mother, was in on the trick.
Can you prove such an individual is wrong?
kerwincan you prove anything in scriptures that his in facts and acts real
yes or no
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 29 2012,09:10) Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2012,03:48) WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID IN FULL (nov 27): Quote “This idea actually DISPROVES what you say. As I've said already, by all rights I should believe as you do regarding demons today. I have had peer pressure to believe such (as you do). I have been told to believe such. (As you do). Yet, I, more than anyone I know, FAR MORE than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely. I found deception. I found people like you. I found people who create fallacies and lie and do anything they can to support a belief that is so emotional to them, and so close to the core of their beliefs. And so irrational and unprovable.” The bold is what T8 quoted me saying.
The underline is what I said in full.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS.
T8 sometimes sees what he wants to see even when it is completely not in line with reality.
Mike, we are all imperfect. We all make mistakes in perception. t8 just made one.
If T8's mistake wasn't pointed out, he would go on to believe that I actually said what he believed I did. It would be his experience that I said that. It would be his testimony (which would be wrong) against mine. Eye witness testimony isn't reliable. People make errors. Even T8. He saw what he wanted to here.
Davidcan you point out what is it that t8 says and did that is so importante because I cannot see it ,
I know my english need to be improve so show it to me in common words ,thank you
Terrarica, I was saying that I have examined these things far more than anyone I know. I said:“I, more than anyone I know, far more than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone I know, examined these things closely.”
But T8 chopped the beginning words off and the end words off creating a very different meaning:
“I know, far more than anyone I know, far far far more than anyone.”
DECEPTION.
Now, MIKE, M I K E, is this self deception? Yes. It's not impossible for T 8 to deceive himself. Before I said MIKE that t8 was lying to himself (self deception) if he was saying he had no agenda in protecting his belief.
You, MIKE, jumped on me and wrongly accused me of saying I was saying T8 was lying. I was saying he was lying to “himself.” (Deceiving himself). This is clearly an example that shows he is not immune to this, right MIKE? Because we are all prone to make mistakes in perception, we really shouldn't be overly confident in our own perception. We deceive ourselves based on what we want to see.This has been demonstrated.
Quote To call the gifts of God's Spirit demonic is a dangerous place to be david. Not only is it insulting to God, but it is the will of the Devil because he would wish that all believers were not equipped with the gifts so as to give him more reign over men. –t8
Well then let's make sure neither of us do that T8. I haven't done that. Have you? Are you doing that? Because if you are T8, then that would be insulting to God, T8. Do you see what I'm doing T8? I'm doing what you did. I'm not directly stating that you did anything but strongly implying it, and of course, without any proof at all. It would be a horrible thing for you to believe t8, that the gifts of gods spirit were demonic. If I keep repeating such phrases T8, I might be able to convince people that you believe something you don't, which I don't want to do, but perhaps you do want to do, with regard to me. Why do such things?
Can we not just be honest in our speech?
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