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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2012,09:04) To all, Here is a case of possession that was documented between Oct. 30, 1671 to Jan 12, 1671. The “Reverend” that observed it documented it and approached it from a scientific angle.
It was a religious community and prone to interpret events by that point of view.
It also has a modern non-religious interpretation.
“striking resemblance to those that are seen in Salem some twenty years later”As soon as I read the date, I thought “Salem.”
Who here thinks that the people who were killed back then were guilty of witchcraft? (That's another discussion. I should actually read the article)
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,04:19) Quote For you to be fair given your own perception, by all rights you should also conclude that John was never taken up and never saw the River of Life. You would have to conclude that Job never experienced the wrath of Satan on his family because you neither believe that these things happen to people like me, mike, or Job. So you are really just making an argument for unbelief in these things.
Add the word “today” to the end of your statement.
today.It occurs to me to ask if atheists are ever victims of possession or if it is just the religious, those who were told about such things growing up.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,04:17) Quote david you believe that because you are into magic and see how it works and at the same time you have never had an experience/vision from God. So your judgement is completely based on your own very limited experience of reality. Not exactly true. I truly believe, understand, believe with my very core, that anecdotal evidence (although considered the strongest form of evidence by the one who is involved) is the very weakest form of evidence we have. It's not even really evidence. I also understand how deception or self deception work with regard to such things.
david, a man's faith is evidence of the unseen. It is not meant to be proof for others or the scientific community but to the person who possess that faith. In fact such things are purposefully hidden from the worldly wise and learned and revealed to the innocent. As soon as you try to measure it or record it for proof, God will certainly not be there.Of course, a person can be deluded too. We know that. No one is arguing about that.
But there is a clear difference in a person who has a real faith in God to a person who has a religion or denomination that is their faith. The latter has a guide or set of rules that they abide by. That is just another way to say that they don't know God personally and hand over all the work of knowing God's will and obeying to a man-made organisation.
It is written that there will be signs and wonders that follow those who believe. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is likely making up for the lack of signs that their faith is a living faith.
Also we know that there are coincidences. I have had some outstanding ones that didn't appear to have any real meaning and were likely random. But it would stand to reason that if God were truly involved in our lives, that there would be evidence of that and to the unbeliever that would be just coincidence.
Jesus says to some religious people that he never knew them. So obviously when you know someone, there has to be a two way form of communication that would be evident and there would be signs of that. If they were not there, then surely you would be a contender for not know God and his son. It is after all knowing God that is important. Even the devils know about God.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,02:55) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 26 2012,02:15)
WAKEUP, if you want to see things that will tickle your mind, watch:David copperfield portal.
Or,
David copperfield laser illusion.
Hi David.They showed how this trick was done.
They used a cherry picker crane to lift him up from a distance.wakeup.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:13) It occurs to me to ask if atheists are ever victims of possession or if it is just the religious, those who were told about such things growing up.
I have seen an Atheist torment a group of Christians, who use to sing hymns in a public space of the city I lived in. I was not associated with that group of Christians, but it was interesting that this guy would turn up when they were there and persecute them and insult them nearly every week for a period of time that I happened to be there myself.One time I watched him just go insane. He lifted his persecution up a notch and to me he looked possessed. One of these Christians decided to rebuke the spirit that was controlling him and it fully manifested itself in him. It appeared exactly in the same fashion that we read about in scripture. During this event they were talking to the spirit for a good while and eventually the person fell down exhausted afterward.
Of course I know that you would say this was just a mental thing david. But that is your unbelief at work.
BTW, I can't be bothered giving you a minute by minute account this time so you can justify your lack of belief by matching something up with a label or a Psychological symptom. It is what it is and you can call it what you like.
Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.
Often what was called demon possession or a demon experience is called alien contact to many westerners who have been brought up as Atheists and brought up on a diet of science fiction movies about aliens.
Is the whole UFO thing a new thing or is it just the same old demonic activity that has been going on for thousands of years and perhaps coupled with signs in the sky that we are told will happen.
For example, david puts any demonic experience into psychological terms and dismisses that they could be what we see happened in the New Testament. This is his cultural experience at work.
One more thing for now.
The bible talks about lying wonders. It doesn't say that all wonders are lies, but that some wonders will not be real wonders rather they will be accomplished in a deceptive way.
I completely disagree with your stance david that all wonders are lies or illusions. I think some would have to be and others would have to be real wonders.
I wonder
if that was the difference between the signs and wonders that were done via the hand of Moses as opposed to the Pharaoh. One was legit, and the other a fraud.Also, I once heard that a fraudulent anything means that there has to be real one too.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,10:39) Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:13) It occurs to me to ask if atheists are ever victims of possession or if it is just the religious, those who were told about such things growing up.
I have seen an Atheist torment a group of Christians, who use to sing hymns in a public space of the city I lived in. I was not associated with that group of Christians, but it was interesting that this guy would turn up when they were there and persecute them and insult them nearly every week for a period of time that I happened to be there myself.One time I watched him just go insane. He lifted his persecution up a notch and to me he looked possessed. One of these Christians decided to rebuke the spirit that was controlling him and it fully manifested itself in him. It appeared exactly in the same fashion that we read about in scripture. During this event they were talking to the spirit for a good while and eventually the person fell down exhausted afterward.
Of course I know that you would say this was just a mental thing david. But that is your unbelief at work.
BTW, I can't be bothered giving you a minute by minute account this time so you can justify your lack of belief by matching something up with a label or a Psychological symptom. It is what it is and you can call it what you like.
You still haven't given me a minute by minute account. What I wanted to know most was: Was your friends thumb pointing down, or off to the side, or up? (The pinky was on top of the glass. Where was the thumb pointing?)“Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.”–t8
Agreed.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,10:45) Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience. Often what was called demon possession or a demon experience is called alien contact to many westerners who have been brought up as Atheists and brought up on a diet of science fiction movies about aliens.
Is the whole UFO thing a new thing or is it just the same old demonic activity that has been going on for thousands of years and perhaps coupled with signs in the sky that we are told will happen.
For example, david puts any demonic experience into psychological terms and dismisses that they could be what we see happened in the New Testament. This is his cultural experience at work.
“One time I watched him just go insane. . . . Of course I know that you would say this was just a mental thing david. But that is your unbelief at work.”–t8Even you used the word insane. That is a mental thing.
Pointing in the air david.
That is all you are going to get.
PS, do you want to know what colour socks he was wearing.
Get over it. I know you don't believe and it is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter to you which way the thumb was pointing. You already have your conclusion.
Please move on. As I said before, the wise thing to do is to look at scripture because this is a case of having to be there and my word which I know is proof to no one. And I don't care anyway. It is of no advantage that you believe me or not.
I shouldn't have been doing what I was doing because it is detestable to God.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:55) “One time I watched him just go insane. . . . Of course I know that you would say this was just a mental thing david. But that is your unbelief at work.”–t8 Even you used the word insane. That is a mental thing.
A perfect example of what I said.You put it into your cultural experience.
In scripture, we read about this as demonic possession and it looks pretty mental to us.
I prefer scriptures interpretation than yours david and sorry but I doubt you will sway me away from scripture toward your view.
I mean from some of the symptoms you read about these mentally unstable people they often say they heard voices telling them to do it.
And you would even deny that this was demonic too I guess.
I can't help your unbelief here david because you actually believe in the unbelief interpretation and boil it solely down to chemical reactions.
BTW, it might help you if you look up the word “reactions”. Because that is slightly different in meaning to “actions”.
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,13:53) “Interesting thing about experiences is that people often frame them into their cultural experience.”–t8 Agreed.
The cultural experience I am using is the biblical understanding of these things. You are using a non-biblical one. This is the point. I too could use a non-biblical understanding if I didn't believe the biblical interpretation of such things. But I have faith in God and scripture and so obviously I choose that because I believe it is true.Further, the real reason you take the view you do is because you believe by reason of the dictations of your denomination that these things have ceased. And why do you think that? Because it is written that when the perfect comes these things will cease.
So let's get real here. Your whole argument here stands on one interpretation of one scripture and all of us here know that interpretation is wrong. These things have not ceased. They will cease when Jesus returns because there will be no more need for them especially when the enemy is cast into his prison.
And on that subject, Jesus returned in 1914 according to you if you believe all the dictations of the JWs. Yet we know that if someone say he is here or there, then do not believe him.
These are the real issues as to why you believe what you do. No amount of psychological reasoning is going to make up for a bad interpretation of one scripture and a false prediction as to the coming of Christ. Perhaps psychologically speaking you try to come across as intelligent and understanding of the mind of man to make up for these obvious foolish things. A sort of cover up.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 19 2012,13:51) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 19 2012,05:06) Hi: Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and SHEWETH him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
This interesting, and I don't have the answer, and so, I am praying for understanding.
Love in Christ,
Marty
942767.Those spirit communicate with each other.
A spirit can not follow a God fearing person,but it can follow a non God fearing person.And that spirits can know all about that person,and give information to other spirits when asked.
Those spirits are not the fallen angels.
wakeup.
Hi wakeup:The spirit of a person is the life that a person lives. The spirit knows the thoughts of his mind, and the what ever is revealed to his person by other spirits within other persons in his environment, including what God may have revealed to his person.
Someone may know that about a bank robbery that will occur on next Tuesday because he has been told about it or he overheard someone talk about it, for example, but unless this information has been revealed to that person, he will not know about it.
I do not believe that the devil is a fallen angel.
This is what the scripture states about the devil:
Quote Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,06:32) Further, the real reason you take the view you do is because you believe by reason of the dictations of your denomination that these things have ceased. And why do you think that? Because it is written that when the perfect comes these things will cease. So let's get real here. Your whole argument here stands on one interpretation of one scripture and all of us here know that interpretation is wrong. These things have not ceased. They will cease when Jesus returns because there will be no more need for them especially when the enemy is cast into his prison.
And on that subject, Jesus returned in 1914 according to you if you believe all the dictations of the JWs. Yet we know that if someone say he is here or there, then do not believe him.
These are the real issues as to why you believe what you do. No amount of psychological reasoning is going to make up for a bad interpretation of one scripture and a false prediction as to the coming of Christ. Perhaps psychologically speaking you try to come across as intelligent and understanding of the mind of man to make up for these obvious foolish things. A sort of cover up.
t81929 they have built a mantion in San Diego ,California called beth-sarim,it was build to recieve the resurrected of Gods faithfull servants of old,
when this did not happen they used it for a vacasion place for the elite of the WTBTS (JW ,head office)
Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2012,05:09) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2012,09:04) To all, Here is a case of possession that was documented between Oct. 30, 1671 to Jan 12, 1671. The “Reverend” that observed it documented it and approached it from a scientific angle.
It was a religious community and prone to interpret events by that point of view.
It also has a modern non-religious interpretation.
1671 ?
David,From the Wikipedia entry it seems that area and that time were more religious and so even the scientific interpretation would be more likely to conclude demon possession existed.
The observer in this case was testing whether or not the teen was demon possessed. He decided she was because her actions seemed alien. He also concluded she fabricated some of her story.
If you read on the man stood up for several accused women during the Salem Witch trials on the grounds they did not receive a fair and legal trial.
Quote Get over it. I know you don't believe and it is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter to you which way the thumb was pointing. You already have your conclusion. It actually does matter to me and that is why I originally said it was a very important question and then asked it again.
How long ago was this. What is his email address.
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