Psalms 2:7 this day i have begotten you!

[mikeboll64]

Hey Jack and Keith,

I posted the above for Marty, but I noticed this part:

Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14).

Do you see where it says “monogenes”, when used ALONE, WITHOUT THE WORD SON, can mean “only son”, “unique son”, etc.?

I take that to mean when it is used WITH THE WORD SON behind it, like John 3:16 and 3:18 and 1 John 4:9, it means “only BEGOTTEN son”.

And Keith, I asked on the other thread for your source of the Strong's definition for “monogenes” you and Jack always post……the “one of a kind” one.  I haven't seen it yet.

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47)

Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18?  The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also.  This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example. There is no “begotten god”. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,
Allow me to help you. The Nestlé-Aland 26 original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2010,15:18)

Hi Marty, Allow me to help you. The Nestlé-Aland 26 original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God

And Wescott and Hort. And many others.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2010,17:14) And the Net also says… Heb “and after me, there will not be”; NASB “there will be none after Me.” WJ I'm sorry WJ, Which one of those translations say “no god will come into being after me”? mike

What is the language not clear to you Mike?

Heb “and after me, there will not be”; NASB “there will be none after Me.”

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,22:10)

Hi Marty, I don't even know all the different Greek mss, but here's some info and the newer translations that include the word “god”.  Something about the older ones have “god”, but somewhere along the line, some scribes might have changed it to “son”. Almost all of the newer translations, while fitting in their own made up definitons of “monogenes”, have “theos”, not “huios”.

Some more of your picking and choosing Mike?

Why not highlight this part from the NET…
Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “THE WORD WAS FULLY GOD” or “THE WORD WAS FULLY OF THE ESSENCE OF DEITY.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2010,23:18)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47) Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18?  The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also.  This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example. There is no “begotten god”. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Allow me to help you.  The Nestlé-Aland 26  original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God.

Yes

And the NASB is the lonely Translation on Biblegateway.com and Bluelettebible.org. that translates it that way.

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Mikeboll said:

Quote

Which one of those translations say “no god will come into being after me”?

TO ALL:

Mike is really a piece of work isn't he? It says that no god came into being before YHWH and that after Him none shall exist.

the Roo

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,22:10) Hi Marty, I don't even know all the different Greek mss, but here's some info and the newer translations that include the word “god”.  Something about the older ones have “god”, but somewhere along the line, some scribes might have changed it to “son”. Almost all of the newer translations, while fitting in their own made up definitons of “monogenes”, have “theos”, not “huios”. Some more of your picking and choosing Mike? Why not highlight this part from the NET… Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “THE WORD WAS FULLY GOD” or “THE WORD WAS FULLY OF THE ESSENCE OF DEITY.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text. WJ

Keith,

What should be expect from a man who has appointed himself to tell us which words in scripture are “unimportant?” Remember he said that the word “today” in Psalm 2:7 is “unimportant?”

Jack

[942767]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 18 2010,06:12)

Mikeboll said: Quote Which one of those translations say “no god will come into being after me”? TO ALL: Mike is really a piece of work isn't he? It says that no god came into being before YHWH and that after Him none shall exist. the Roo

To all who know the truth, and those who would want to know the truth.

Well, I know no other God but one and He is my heavenly Father, and I have a personal relationship with Him through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, my Lord Yashua.

There is no begotten god.

Quote

1 Co 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2010,23:18) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47) Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18?  The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also.  This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example. There is no “begotten god”. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Allow me to help you.  The Nestlé-Aland 26  original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God. Yes And the NASB is the lonely Translation on Biblegateway.com and Bluelettebible.org. that translates it that way. WJ

Here's some others to keep the NASB company Keith.

NET John 1:18
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.  

NIV Joh 1:18
No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

NASB Joh 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NLT Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart; he has told us about him.

MSG Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day.

NRSV Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

NWT John 1:18
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

All of the translations are of “monogenes theos”. Only the NASB and the NWT translate it correctly though.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2010,16:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2010,23:18) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47) Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18?  The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also.  This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example. There is no “begotten god”. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Allow me to help you.  The Nestlé-Aland 26  original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God. Yes And the NASB is the lonely Translation on Biblegateway.com and Bluelettebible.org. that translates it that way. WJ Here's some others to keep the NASB company Keith. NET John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.   NIV Joh 1:18 No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. NASB Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NLT Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart; he has told us about him. MSG Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day. NRSV Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. NWT John 1:18 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. All of the translations are of “monogenes theos”.  Only the NASB and the NWT translate it correctly though. mike

But only 2 says “Begotten God”, the NASB and the NWT, no surprise there…

WJ

[JustAskin]

94,

You said it – nice and simple. And Right.

Mike, WJ, Roo, (Only Askin ya'll)

Define “GOD” – what is [a] GOD?

Your answer, if honest and Holy spirited, will resolve the issue.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 17 2010,17:00)

94, You said it – nice and simple. And Right. Mike, WJ, Roo, (Only Askin ya'll) Define “GOD” – what is [a] GOD? Your answer, if honest and Holy spirited, will resolve the issue.

There are 2 kinds of Gods.

The Only “One True God” and so-called gods or false gods. 1 Cor 8:4, 5 – Isa 43:10

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2010,16:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2010,23:18) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47) Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18?  The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also.  This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example. There is no “begotten god”. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Allow me to help you.  The Nestlé-Aland 26  original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God. Yes And the NASB is the lonely Translation on Biblegateway.com and Bluelettebible.org. that translates it that way. WJ Here's some others to keep the NASB company Keith. NET John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.   NIV Joh 1:18 No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. NASB Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. NLT Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart; he has told us about him. MSG Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day. NRSV Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. NWT John 1:18 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. All of the translations are of “monogenes theos”.  Only the NASB and the NWT translate it correctly though. mike

Why are you making this argument Mike?

You do not believe Jesus is God at all. For you have said he is not your God and you have never explained who he is “a god” too.

If he is “a god” to anybody then that would mean he is their God.

Is he your “Begotten God”?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 18 2010,06:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,22:10) Hi Marty, I don't even know all the different Greek mss, but here's some info and the newer translations that include the word “god”.  Something about the older ones have “god”, but somewhere along the line, some scribes might have changed it to “son”. Almost all of the newer translations, while fitting in their own made up definitons of “monogenes”, have “theos”, not “huios”. Some more of your picking and choosing Mike? Why not highlight this part from the NET… Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “THE WORD WAS FULLY GOD” or “THE WORD WAS FULLY OF THE ESSENCE OF DEITY.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text. WJ Keith, What should be expect from a man who has appointed himself to tell us which words in scripture are “unimportant?” Remember he said that the word “today” in Psalm 2:7 is “unimportant?” Jack

Hey Keith and Jack,

I have an idea. Why don't you actually answer the part I DID highlight instead of diverting the issue?

I'm still waiting for the link to where Strong says “monogenes” means “one of a kind”. Where is your source guys? My Strong source says “only born” and “only begotten”.

And Isaiah 43:10 says no god was begotten BEFORE God…..that much you have right. It does NOT say no god was begotten AFTER God. It says none will exist after Him. In other words, like He says in Rev, He is the FIRST AND THE LAST, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. Get it? There were none that existed before He existed, and there will be none who exist after, or longer than Him.

Jack, why didn't you answer my posts? How can Is mean what you say, and at the same time Jesus be begotten when he was raised? Don't your two interpretations of scripture contradict each other?

Alas…….no answers the the questions – just diversions and personal insults. So sad.

Oh yeah, and the “today” didn't seem to be that important to the church fathers either. Just to the three J's it seems.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2010,17:13)

I'm still waiting for the link to where Strong says “monogenes” means “one of a kind”.

1) single of its kind, only

a)used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)

b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Source

So where is the link to your source?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2010,08:57)

But only 2 says “Begotten God”, the NASB and the NWT, no surprise there…

Not really. The actual Greek words means “only begotten god”. Strong even says that's the definition. Why is it all these other trinity biased translations render it differently than what the words mean?

Oh that's right. They have to bend over backwards and make up new definitions and whatever else it takes to make sure it doesn't end up sounding like Jesus was actually begotten……..even though that's what scripture says.

And those are the ones you follow WJ. Where do you think they got those new definitions like “God the one and Only”? Apparently not from the scriptures or the early Christian writings. So where do you think they got them from?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2010,09:11)

Why are you making this argument Mike? You do not believe Jesus is God at all. For you have said he is not your God and you have never explained who he is “a god” too. If he is “a god” to anybody then that would mean he is their God. Is he your “Begotten God”? WJ

I've got no time for your funny word games.  Jesus is a mighty one, or god, but not THE ALMIGHTY ONE…..who is our only true God.

I explained it like this to Kathi in a pm last night.  Switch the word “god” for “father”.  To those in Biblical times, calling someone you revered “god” meant nothing more than us today calling our pastor “father”.  If I said “At church today, the father said so and so…..”, no one would in a million years think I was talking about THE FATHER in heaven.

By the same token, Jesus being referred to as a god in no way ever implied that someone thought he was THE GOD in heaven.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2010,17:14) And the Net also says… Heb “and after me, there will not be”; NASB “there will be none after Me.” WJ I'm sorry WJ, Which one of those translations say “no god will come into being after me”? mike

Mike

What does “there will be none after me” mean?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2010,17:18)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2010,08:57) But only 2 says “Begotten God”, the NASB and the NWT, no surprise there… Not really.  The actual Greek words means “only begotten god”.  Strong even says that's the definition.  Why is it all these other trinity biased translations render it differently than what the words mean? Oh that's right.  They have to bend over backwards and make up new definitions and whatever else it takes to make sure it doesn't end up sounding like Jesus was actually begotten……..even though that's what scripture says. And those are the ones you follow WJ.  Where do you think they got those new definitions like “God the one and Only”?  Apparently not from the scriptures or the early Christian writings.  So where do you think they got them from? mike

Mike

Seriously, how does “Begotten God” hurt the Trinity view.

We believe the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh and so he becomes the “Begotten God”.

WJ

[Author]

Posts