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t8
But if Jesus was the “first of Gods works” then that would make him a creature. Which would also mean that the following scripture would be null and void…
All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING“. John 1:3
Not to mention that if he was the “first of Gods works” then that would mean that he wasn't there with God in the beginning, but instead would be part of the beginning.
Nah, I think I will believe his words. Prov 8 has been misinterpreted in a desperate attempt by Arians to make Jesus a creature that had a beginning. His name is not even implied there because wisdom is an attribute of God and Jesus contained it all. Col 2:2, 3
It was by and through Jesus that the worlds were framed and wisdom being the first of his works.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,02:19) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,03:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,08:43) Hi all! It has been claimed by some that the majority on this forum believed that Jesus was begotten before the ages or time as the Only Begotten Son of God born from Gods own body through procreation.
When was Jesus “begotten”?
What say you?
WJ
The son (the Word/Jesus) was not procreated, he was created. Jesus himself said, he is the beginning of God's “CREATION”, Rev. 3:14.
You can read about “His” beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.Georg
So God created his own word?So what did God use to create the Word since the Word was used in the creating of all things?
Was God ever without his Word?
Thats like saying there was a time that God did not have thoughts or reason. Foolishness!
WJ
WJ The Word in John 1:14 became flesh, that is who became Jesus….
Rev. 19:13-16 also talks about The Word of God…..He has a robe on dipped in blood and is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation. And through Him all was created…..IreneQuote (Baker @ Sep. 22 2010,17:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,02:19) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,03:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,08:43) Hi all! It has been claimed by some that the majority on this forum believed that Jesus was begotten before the ages or time as the Only Begotten Son of God born from Gods own body through procreation.
When was Jesus “begotten”?
What say you?
WJ
The son (the Word/Jesus) was not procreated, he was created. Jesus himself said, he is the beginning of God's “CREATION”, Rev. 3:14.
You can read about “His” beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.Georg
So God created his own word?So what did God use to create the Word since the Word was used in the creating of all things?
Was God ever without his Word?
Thats like saying there was a time that God did not have thoughts or reason. Foolishness!
WJ
WJ The Word in John 1:14 became flesh, that is who became Jesus….
Rev. 19:13-16 also talks about The Word of God…..He has a robe on dipped in blood and is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation. And through Him all was created…..Irene
IreneAnd the Word in John 1:1 is also God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD“. John 1:1
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2010,06:36) t8 All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING“. John 1:3
WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you assume this verse appertains to Jesus?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2010,01:34) Irene And the Word in John 1:1 is also God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD“. John 1:1
WJ
Hi WJ,That part of John 1:1 does seem to trouble Irene; No?
We both know that the HolySpirit is God indeed; Yes?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 03 2010,09:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2010,06:36) t8 All things came into being through Him, and “APART FROM HIM NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING“. John 1:3
WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you assume this verse appertains to Jesus?
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.From Shimmer in the “Was Jesus Always Superior” thread:
Mike,
“Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God; he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love. In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him; in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.”
I could take this to mean, (firstly it says anyone who loves is begotten of God)…God sent his only begotten son out into the world…only begotten at conception with Mary perhaps…up untill then God has many sons it seems in scripture, who are firstborn too…
“Thus said Jehovah, My son, My first-born is Israel”,
“Ephraim — My first-born is he“,
David – “I will also appoint him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth”,
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
I will make him my first-born – I will deal with him as a father by his first-born son, to whom a double portion of possessions and honors belong. First-born. is not always to be understood literally in Scripture. It often signifies simply a well-beloved, or best-beloved son; one preferred to all the rest, and distinguished by some eminent prerogative. Thus God calls Israel his son, his first-born, Exodus 4:22. See also Sirach 36:12. And even Ephraim is called God's first-born, Jeremiah 31:9.Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Higher than the kings of the earth – Than other kings; the most exalted among kings and rulers. This was entirely fulfilled in David, who occupied a pre-eminence among princes and rulers which no other king did: a prominence alike in his own personal character and his reign; in his relation to God; and in the fact that he was the ancestor of the Messiah, the “King of kings, and Lord of lords” Revelation 19:16; “the prince of the kings of the earth,” Revelation 1:5.Shimmer:
Quote “Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God; he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love. In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him; in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.”
Hi Shimmer. I was asking for a scripture that clearly tells us that fallen angels and people who don't follow God's commands are NOT His children. This scripture does not say that. But what it does say is interesting for this discussion.It says that God SENT His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON INTO THE WORLD as a sacrifice for our sins.
We know that Jesus died as that sacrifice. We also know that Jesus did not die AFTER he was raised from the dead, nor can he ever die again.
So if God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON is the one who died for our sins, how could he not have been God's only begotten Son until AFTER he already died for our sins?
And how could God have SENT His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD as a sacrifice if he was not already God's only begotten Son before he was SENT INTO THE WORLD?
As far as “firstborn”, the first two scriptures do not refer to the persons of “Israel” and “Ephraim”, but to the nation of Israel, which was called “Ephraim” after the nation was split in two. And the nation of Israel was God's “firstborn” among nations of the earth, just like David was appointed as God's firstborn of the kings of the earth.
Here's the deal: “Firstborn” always means literally “the one who was born first”………….UNLESS, it is clear from the context that it refers to a position one was appointed to. In your scriptures, we KNOW from scripture that none of these were the LITERAL “one born first”, so the “appointment” meaning is clear.
Now all you need to do is find the scripture that CLEARLY teaches that Jesus wasn't the LITERAL firstborn, but was “appointed” to that position as a replacement of the “real” firstborn. We know that Israel was NOT the “real” first nation on the earth, right? And we know that David was “appointed” as a replacement for Saul. What we DON'T know about is any reason we should just “imagine” that Jesus isn't the LITERAL “firstborn of all creation”.
And forget JA's “over” all creation thought, for it is the genetive form of the Greek words, which CLEARLY means we add an “of” in front of it……….NOT an “over”.
So, considering the HUNDREDS of times “firstborn” is used in the Bible, and the very few times it refers to someone being replaced as “firstborn” in favor of a “better firstborn”, there is no logical reason whatsoever to just “assume” for the benefit of our own doctrines that “firstborn” in referrence to Jesus meant anything other than “the one born first”.
And when you add in the fact that ANY TIME “firstborn” doesn't refer to the literal “one born first”, it is made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, why would we just invent this “metaphorical firstborn” in the case of Jesus?
Only one reason Shimmer: To further our own flawed man-made doctrines.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2010,08:34) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 22 2010,17:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,02:19) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,03:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,08:43) Hi all! It has been claimed by some that the majority on this forum believed that Jesus was begotten before the ages or time as the Only Begotten Son of God born from Gods own body through procreation.
When was Jesus “begotten”?
What say you?
WJ
The son (the Word/Jesus) was not procreated, he was created. Jesus himself said, he is the beginning of God's “CREATION”, Rev. 3:14.
You can read about “His” beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.Georg
So God created his own word?So what did God use to create the Word since the Word was used in the creating of all things?
Was God ever without his Word?
Thats like saying there was a time that God did not have thoughts or reason. Foolishness!
WJ
WJ The Word in John 1:14 became flesh, that is who became Jesus….
Rev. 19:13-16 also talks about The Word of God…..He has a robe on dipped in blood and is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 tells us that He is the firstborn of all creation. And through Him all was created…..Irene
IreneAnd the Word in John 1:1 is also God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD“. John 1:1
WJ
WJIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “THE WORD WAS GOD”. John 1:1
so it is then; in the biginning was the GOD,AND IN THE BIGINNING HE WAS WITH GOD AND HE WAS GOD,
AND TROUGH GOD ALL THINGS WERE MADE;right??
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.were do you get those twisted ideas
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,09:16) Hi All I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “this day (Gr. yowm) have I begotten thee. Pss 2:7
The Greek word for “Day” is Strong's H3117 – yowm which means;
1) day, time, year
a) day (as opposed to night)
b) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time
a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.)
d) time, period (general)
e) year
f) temporal references
1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow
So this day was in the framework of time.
Therefore Jesus had to of existed when the begetting took place because he was there before the ages or time since the scriptures says he was there in the beginning of all things including day one.
Mike the source is from Blueletterbible which is one of the most widely used and recognized sources on the net.
The NET commentary of this verse says…
‘You are my son!’ The Davidic king was viewed as God’s “son” (see 2 Sam 7:14; Ps 89:26-27). The idiom reflects ancient Near Eastern adoption language associated with covenants of grant, by which a lord would reward a faithful subject by elevating him to special status, referred to as “sonship.” Like a son, the faithful subject received an “inheritance,” viewed as an unconditional, eternal gift. Such gifts usually took the form of land and/or an enduring dynasty. See M. Weinfeld, “The Covenant of Grant in the Old Testament and in the Ancient Near East,” JAOS 90 (1970): 184-203, for general discussion and some striking extra-biblical parallels.
No way can this verse mean that Jesus was “Begotten” before the ages or time.
WJ
WJbut that scripture to you is not what it says ;is it ??
in line with your views of Joh;1-1
you see it this way;
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “this day (Gr. yowm) have I begotten thee.[/color] Pss 2:7your new version; I(God) declare the decree;the God hath said unto me,
thou art my son ,you are my son;this does not make sense ,WJ, can you not see that ,
the father is not the son ,like you are trying to say it,
Pierre
Mike, been through this, but ok, so this time im allowed to have my say ? Sounds good to me. When I have the time.
Mikeboll has fallen to the deoth of desperation so much that he cannot see anything except 'Mikeboll' in front of him.
He has fallen prey to the spirit of delusion.
Present him with any kind of truth and he will refute it….see he will even refute this claim concerning him….
watch and see that he does…
Show Mikeboll Romans 1:3-4, where it clearly states that Jesus, Son of God, born of the seed of David in the flesh, and DECLARED to be the Son of God with power by the spirit of holiness by theresurrection from the dead.
They it is…plain, simple, clear…
The Declaration…and raised in power, and …additionally, appounted High Priest, as stated in Hebrews 10:5, and all the other things in Hebrews 1, and two other places…Yes, Mike, Jesus was not Angel when God said, 'you are my Son…', Mike, he was MAN….
Mike, you 'profess to be wise but have become foolish' Romans 1:22.
'And changed the glory of the incurruotible God into an image made like corruptible man.' vs 23.Mike, i quote those verses to say that you think from the flesh and blood instead of from the Spirit and that is why you can't see the real glory of God (Jesus Christ).
This is why you think spirits have bodies and that God lives in a container and sits on a literal, physical throne in the spiritual heaven. Mike, mike, does the wind live in a container, doth not the Scriptures say that 'the wind bloweth where it will'. Does that sound like it is contained?
This is why you can't think of 'Dimensions', when it perfectly explains how an 'intelligence' can be in one place at one moment and a far off different at an immediate other, or, can be in many places at the same time, or many places at many times…
and if you don't understand it…why automatically dismiss it.Mike, that shows how arrogant you are. If you can't see the truth of a thing then it ain't of value…. Mikeboll64, you are the true THOMAS…and Mike, Jesus did NOT bless Thomas, he admonished him…
The trinis try to say Jesus blessed him only because they wanted to say that Thomas saying 'My Lord and My God' was somehow revealing that Jesus was…is…God.You try to dispute Scriptures by requesting negatives…'show me where it does NOT say…' this is a dishonest request.. One cannot 'prove a negative'
Mike please do not do this…no one can prove a negative…at most it can only be seen as nonproved but cannot be proved.
None the less, you question concerning showing where Man who sins is NOT son of God…well, by virtue of Scripture stating that he who is led by the Spirit of God is a Son of God (Romans 8:14).
Therefore, seeing that we are all in sin and therefore NOT sons of God, God has provided away for us to become so by being led by the Spirit of God.And, seeing that Jesus, emptied of his position of Angelic Spirit Son, is born by the Holy Spirit in the flesh by the seed of David(I.e Through Mary's line) he is Sinless and is guided by the Holy Spirit, he is Son of God, and since he was the ONLY one who was Sinless, he was the ONLY Son of God, at that time in the flesh.
And, since that, then …Hebrews 10:5 it was the first time God 'brought him into the world'…
And when was the second time….at his resurrection, hebrews 1:5, then applies as well as all the rest…
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
I was just reading this. I get rather upset when someone says that Georg is uneducated. Well ,let me tell you. I think in spite of all He has more understanding then some on here. He has taught Himself. It is never right to say something personal…. Also t8 also believes that Proverbs 8:22-30 speaks about Jesus, and so do I….So is t8 also uneducated? I don't think so…..IreneYes Shimmer,
You can ALWAYS have your say when discussing with me. But please, let's just take this step by step. Don't pull a “world according to WJ/JA” stunt. Those get real old real fast. Let's start at the beginning.
Psalm 2:7 NASB
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.This was written in Hebrew. The word used for “begotten” was “yalad”. This Hebrew word had no connotation of a metaphoric begetting. It literally meant to be “brought forth in childbirth”.
Now, this scripture could refer to an event that happened years before, or it could be a prophecy about a future event, right?
Are we all in agreement so far?
(JA, I will explain any scripture to you that you ask me about – but one at a time. I won't partake in your “world according to JA” posts. So for now, I will pick just one from your previous post and explain it to you.)
Romans 1:3-4 NET
…concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.Now Kathi and Pierre have both just explained this to you in the other thread, and have both just chided you for quoting only a part of the context of the scripture.
This scripture is saying that the “emptied” Jesus who was a flesh descendant of David was by no means the “Son of God WITH POWER” that he is now at the right hand of God. This is what the NETNotes says about “Son-of-God-in-power”:
Appointed the Son-of-God-in-power. Most translations render the Greek participle ὁρισθέντος (Jorisqentos, from ὁρίζω, Jorizw) “declared” or “designated” in order to avoid the possible interpretation that Jesus was appointed the Son of God by the resurrection. However, the Greek term ὁρίζω is used eight times in the NT, and it always has the meaning “to determine, appoint.” Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
I know you don't give a hoot about what NETNotes has to say, but in order for your understanding to prevail, it would mean that Jesus was not the Son of God in any special way before he was raised. And that would fly in the face of whole reason the Jews finally settled on to have him killed. And that reason was that he was claiming to be, not “A son of God”, but “THE Son of God”.
Now, do we agree so far about Psalm 2:7? JA? Shimmer?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,11:08) I was just reading this. I get rather upset when someone says that Georg is uneducated. Well ,let me tell you. I think in spite of all He has more understanding then some on here. He has taught Himself. It is never right to say something personal….
Hi Irene,Yeah, Martian and KJ were pretty nasty in their posts. JA is running a close third place to them now. Why must people try to deride others? I mean, if you disagree about what the scripture is saying, then just disagree. Why make it a personal attack? Not cool at all.
peace and love,
mikeMike, if kathi is going to be having her say here again, I wont be taking part. Not after what she just said, this forum has got pathetic.
Come on Shimmer. I'm sure whatever Kathi said to you, it couldn't possibly be any worse than what I put up with from your friend JA day after day. It's not about Kathi or JA. It's not even about you and I. It's only about what the scriptures teach us. Speak scripturally, and then whoever insults you or ridicules or starts verbal fistfights with you is not really doing those things to you, but to scripture. (Are you listening JA?) Speak scripturally, and you earn praise from God. And if you're earning praise from God, then who gives two hoots what some human thinks about you?
So, are you on board about the Psalm?
Point 1. It could be talking about something from the past OR from the future. Agree or Disagree.
Point 2. “Yalad” did not have a metaphorical meaning but referred to a literal “child birth”. Agree or Disagree.
peace and love,
mikeQuote Come on Shimmer. I'm sure whatever Kathi said to you, it couldn't possibly be any worse than what I put up with from your friend JA day after day.
Well at least he cares about you, and speaks to you. Thats the difference.. and thats why I dont interfere….But OK.
Quote It's only about what the scriptures teach us. Speak scripturally, and then whoever insults you or ridicules or starts verbal fistfights with you is not really doing those things to you, but to scripture. (Are you listening JA?) Speak scripturally, and you earn praise from God. And if you're earning praise from God, then who gives two hoots what some human thinks about you?
Insults, ridicules, verbal fistfights dont worry me, I was used to that posting in sceptics place. A place where your faith is truely tested, I dont mind at all debating what I believe. I loved it with bod. It strenghtened my beliefs, helped me learn. The difference here… is the opposite.But it's ok…I know why now. It was shown to me…I'm ok with it.
Mike,
The second Psalm is clearly the day Jesus was risen from the dead. Listen to what scripture says, no-one else, no dictionary, no word study… just scripture,
Acts 13:26…again,
“Brothers, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, the word of this salvation is sent out to you. For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they didn't know him, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. Though they found no cause for death, they still asked Pilate to have him killed. When they had fulfilled all things that were written about him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and he was seen for many days by those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses to the people.
We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second psalm, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your father.'
Mike, Cant you see that ?
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