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Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,09:00) Marty, and Terrarica, I agree.
With what in particular that they said do you agree…….and why? Is it a scriptural reason or just a “feeling” that they are right?Btw, welcome back.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,09:23) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:51) Hi Mike: No, it does not matter what I think if it is merely an opinion of mine which cannot be supported by scripture.
Jesus' pre-existence is supported by many scriptures Marty.Matthew said Micah 5:2 was a prophecy about Jesus. How is that not a scripture about the origins of Jesus being from “ancient times”?
Please just answer to the scripture.
mike
Hi Mike,You know that's another one 'they' will conveniently ignore;
have you noticed this pattern of ignoring Posts by others?Your Brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Romans 8:29)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,10:25) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,09:00) Marty, and Terrarica, I agree.
With what in particular that they said do you agree…….and why? Is it a scriptural reason or just a “feeling” that they are right?Btw, welcome back.
mike
Hi Mike. Thanks. [Im ok again]I cant say why I agree, just that I [think] I do.
The word of God, God's communication,
God's word was made flesh, in Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus also become the first begotten of the dead.
Marty and Terrarica, Do I have that basic summary right ?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,09:23) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:51) Hi Mike: No, it does not matter what I think if it is merely an opinion of mine which cannot be supported by scripture.
Jesus' pre-existence is supported by many scriptures Marty.Matthew said Micah 5:2 was a prophecy about Jesus. How is that not a scripture about the origins of Jesus being from “ancient times”?
Please just answer to the scripture.
mike
Hi Mike:I already answered this: It means that he was foreordained not that he preexisted.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2010,09:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,09:23) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:51) Hi Mike: No, it does not matter what I think if it is merely an opinion of mine which cannot be supported by scripture.
Jesus' pre-existence is supported by many scriptures Marty.Matthew said Micah 5:2 was a prophecy about Jesus. How is that not a scripture about the origins of Jesus being from “ancient times”?
Please just answer to the scripture.
mike
Hi Mike,You know that's another one 'they' will conveniently ignore;
have you noticed this pattern of ignoring Posts by others?Your Brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Romans 8:29)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Yeah Ed,They'll either ignore it or figure out some mystical heebee-jeebee abstract meaning for it that means something other than what it very clearly says.
mike
Hi Shimmer:
You ask me:
Quote Do I have that basic summary right ? Yes, basically that is my understanding of the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,10:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,10:25) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 20 2010,09:00) Marty, and Terrarica, I agree.
With what in particular that they said do you agree…….and why? Is it a scriptural reason or just a “feeling” that they are right?Btw, welcome back.
mike
Hi Mike. Thanks. [Im ok again]I cant say why I agree, just that I [think] I do.
The word of God, God's communication,
God's word was made flesh, in Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus also become the first begotten of the dead.
Marty and Terrarica, Do I have that basic summary right ?
Hi Shimmer,You sure to got that right!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,10:07) Hi Mike: I already answered this: It means that he was foreordained not that he preexisted.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Okay Marty,I went back and now see where you said that already…….sorry my good man.
What does “origin” mean? If Jesus was JUST a thought in God's mind……then that thought has been there as long as God has been around, right? In which case, that thought had no “origin” at all because it always existed in God's mind. So why use the word “origin”, or as the LXX puts it, “beginning”?
mike
Hi Mike:
This is from the YLT:
Quote Micah 5:2 (Young's Literal Translation) 2And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth — to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.
The way I read this, it is not about pre-existence but it is about the prophetic statement of where the ruler of Israel would be born. That is the point that is being made. The statement is that God has seen that this event would happen from eternity.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,10:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I've BEEN showing them to you…….one at a time.
1. “with the glory I had IN YOUR PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD”
2. “ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”
3. “Beginning in the form of God…….emptied himself…..and was begotten in the likeness of a human being”
But for each scripture, you guys seem to have some other “freaky abstract” meaning for which you have no backing. Come on Gene, this is the person Jesus saying HE was there before and the glory I had in your presence. This is NOT the person Jesus saying “ascend to where the thought of me was in God's head before”. This is NOT Jesus saying “the glory that the thought of me in your head had before the creation of the world”.
I'm just tired of trying to battle nonsense. I do it with Jack and Keith and their trinity lie all the time. And now I have to put up with these kind of answers from the non-preexisters.
Why can't scripture just mean what it says? If it says Jesus will ascend to where he was before, then just take it like that.
If it says Jesus was in God's presence before, then just take it like that.
If is says he was in the form of God but emptied himself to come as a man, then just take it like that.
And if Micah says this coming ruler's origins are from ancient times, then take it like that. Why must it mean that God “thought about” this ruler from ancient times, although the soon to be ruler didn't really exist yet? This is ludicrous. Take the words as they are written. Btw, you didn't answer how a thought of God had an origin. Wouldn't God's thoughts, say of Jesus, also be from everlasting like He is?
I'm posting John 8:38 next……I'll see ya there.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,12:41) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,10:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,I've BEEN showing them to you…….one at a time.
1. “with the glory I had IN YOUR PRESENCE BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD”
2. “ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”
3. “Beginning in the form of God…….emptied himself…..and was begotten in the likeness of a human being”
But for each scripture, you guys seem to have some other “freaky abstract” meaning for which you have no backing. Come on Gene, this is the person Jesus saying HE was there before and the glory I had in your presence. This is NOT the person Jesus saying “ascend to where the thought of me was in God's head before”. This is NOT Jesus saying “the glory that the thought of me in your head had before the creation of the world”.
I'm just tired of trying to battle nonsense. I do it with Jack and Keith and their trinity lie all the time. And now I have to put up with these kind of answers from the non-preexisters.
Why can't scripture just mean what it says? If it says Jesus will ascend to where he was before, then just take it like that.
If it says Jesus was in God's presence before, then just take it like that.
If is says he was in the form of God but emptied himself to come as a man, then just take it like that.
And if Micah says this coming ruler's origins are from ancient times, then take it like that. Why must it mean that God “thought about” this ruler from ancient times, although the soon to be ruler didn't really exist yet? This is ludicrous. Take the words as they are written. Btw, you didn't answer how a thought of God had an origin. Wouldn't God's thoughts, say of Jesus, also be from everlasting like He is?
I'm posting John 8:38 next……I'll see ya there.
peace and love,
mike
No, Mike,You are posting scriptures which you say may indicate that Jesus pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary.
I am asking you to show me how he is begotten prior to his birth. Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. I can understand that, but how and from whom is he begotten as a sentient person prior to that?
I can see that the Logos existed and was with God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:42) No, Mike, You are posting scriptures which you say may indicate that Jesus pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary.
I am asking you to show me how he is begotten prior to his birth. Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. I can understand that, but how and from whom is he begotten as a sentient person prior to that?
I can see that the Logos existed and was with God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well Marty,In Psalm 2:7, God used the same word “yalad” that was used in Gen 5 for all the “he begat so and so”, and “so and so begat such and such”, etc.
The word “yalad” means:
1) to bear, bring forth
a) of child birth
b) of distress (simile)
c) of wicked (behaviour)What purpose would God have for using a word that the Hebrews understood as a father causing his son to exist if that's not what He meant? It says, “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.”
This is what I was saying in my last post here. Stop trying to make things say or mean more or less than they do. God begot His Son. That's all it says. Why would you and the trinitarians try to invent other meanings of such a simple straightforward statement?
To answer your question Marty, I can't say by what method or “magic” God begot Jesus. But it clearly indicates he “caused to exist” a Son.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:05) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:42) No, Mike, You are posting scriptures which you say may indicate that Jesus pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary.
I am asking you to show me how he is begotten prior to his birth. Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. I can understand that, but how and from whom is he begotten as a sentient person prior to that?
I can see that the Logos existed and was with God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well Marty,In Psalm 2:7, God used the same word “yalad” that was used in Gen 5 for all the “he begat so and so”, and “so and so begat such and such”, etc.
The word “yalad” means:
1) to bear, bring forth
a) of child birth
b) of distress (simile)
c) of wicked (behaviour)What purpose would God have for using a word that the Hebrews understood as a father causing his son to exist if that's not what He meant? It says, “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.”
This is what I was saying in my last post here. Stop trying to make things say or mean more or less than they do. God begot His Son. That's all it says. Why would you and the trinitarians try to invent other meanings of such a simple straightforward statement?
To answer your question Marty, I can't say by what method or “magic” God begot Jesus. But it clearly indicates he “caused to exist” a Son.
mike
Yes, I know he did beget a Son in the womb of the womb of the virgin Mary. That is evident from the scriptures, and it also shows him being born again from the dead, and that much is also evident.Stop evading the issue, if you say that he was begotten prior to his birth into this world, then show me where this happened in the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Mike:
When was this spoken to Jesus?
Quote Hebrews 1:4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
When did God become his Father? You say that he was in “the Form of God” prior to his birth into this world. Was he a Son then or when Mike?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:23) Stop evading the issue, if you say that he was begotten prior to his birth into this world, then show me where this happened in the scriptures. Love in Christ,
Marty
I have been doing just that Marty. He was in the form of God before he came in the flesh. The universe was created though him. He was from “the realms above” while we are from “the realms below”. God sent him into the world from heaven. And not only that, but God sent his already only begotten Son into the world to save it. He is the firstborn of all creation. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He was part of the “us” in Gen 1:26. He was the first of God's works and His master craftsman. His origins are from ancient times. All things came to be through him.The list goes on and on. I'm sorry there's not a scripture that says the exact words, “Jesus pre-existed his flesh”.
Ignatius, who was a disciple of Jesus and who studied under John said Jesus was begotten before the worlds, and then again was born in the flesh by Mary. Where do you think he came up with that idea?
Eusebius, who was thought to be the most learned theologian of his day said Jesus was the only begotten Son of God and the firstborn of all creation BEFORE ALL AGES. Where did he come up with that? Was it from Jude?
25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Jude speaks the praises of both God AND Jesus, and then lists three time periods. Is Jesus our Lord NOW? Yes. Will Jesus be our Lord FOREVERMORE? Yes. Was Jesus our Lord BEFORE ALL AGES? Yes.
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,14:27) Hi Mike: When was this spoken to Jesus?
Quote Hebrews 1:4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
When did God become his Father? You say that he was in “the Form of God” prior to his birth into this world. Was he a Son then or when Mike?
Love in Christ,
Marty
God became his Father before the ages.And yes he was God's Son from the moment God caused him to exist.
He was never God Himself then, nor is he now, nor will he ever be. He has always been God's Son from the moment God begot him.
And you quoted this:
Quote 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. What does the “AGAIN” mean here Marty? Pauls talks of Jesus' second coming here. Jesus' second coming will be the SECOND time that God brought His firstbegotten INTO THE WORLD.
Can't you see that?
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,14:51) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,18:55) Hi Mike: If Jesus was begotten prior to his birth from the virgin Mary, please show me by the scriptures that it is so, and please tell me how he is begotten, from Himself or from whom? How, Mike, how? I can't seem to get my mind to wrap around that at all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
What do you think “firstborn of all creation” means?
What do you think it means when the firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible?
Mary wasn't there when all things were being created but the Son of God was or else He couldn't have created all things. If He wasn't born until Mary, He couldn't have been the firstborn of all creation. He couldn't have been the only begotten Son that was sent.He came forth from the Father (who is the unbegotten God), as His SON, His Firstborn before creation.
Hi LU:Firstborn of all creation means that he was the “firsborn of God” do you know anyone who was born of God prior to Jesus being born of God?
And it also means that He is God's heir as his “Firstborn”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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