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hi all
i can not understand why it is you do not believe scriptures;God always was no beginning no end,
the first of his creation THE WORD(the communication)because if your alone you do not have to communicate right;this is also Christ Jesus at a lather date,(was Moses not the communication harm of God to the nation of Israel and his brother and pharaon.
SO CHRIST WAS AND IS LIKE ALWAYS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD,BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE WAS MADE TROUGH HIM AND SO NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVING GOD AS IT WAS THE CASE IN THE WORD(CHRIST)ON EARTH THE RELATION BECOMES CONNECTED WITH ADAM,BUT IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE POSITION OF CHRIST AS FAR AS BEING THE ONLY SON OF GOD.
ANYONE WHO CANNOT ACSEPT THOSE UNDERSTANDINGS, AS IN NO WAY , COME TO THE TRUTH OF GOD.
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 18 2010,19:33) 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
Hi Jack,You and I agree that the “seen” in John 1:18 means “understood”. It is like me saying, “See what I mean?”
It really means “Do you understand what I mean?”
This is one of the instances where I agree with something you pointed out to me, because it fits with the rest of the verse about “making Him known”.
So how can the “only God” translation even make sense in the verse?
It says no one has ever been able to understand God's ways. His mind is so far above ours that we couldn't possibly comprehend His thoughts and reasonings.
Then it talks about another, who is at God's side. If Jesus is the same being as God, then he can't be “at the Father's side” because he would be “inside” the Father.
It explains that this other one has explained the God no one could ever understand to us. If this one is the same God no one could ever understand, then how could we understand him any better?
And finally, since we know from Paul and Jesus that the Father is our ONLY God, then how can this other one be “the ONLY God” when he is listed as someone other than the Father in the verse?
ps, “monogenes” has only one meaning in the NT, and that is of an “only begotten” child. Look it up Jack. Every single instance is referring to an only begotten child. The only oddball mention of it is when Paul calls Isaac the “only begotten” of Abraham. We know two things about this. That Isaac was indeed begotten by Abraham in the normal sense of the word, which means “caused to exist”. And that Isaac was NOT Abraham's only child. So the “mono” (only) part of the word could seem out of place here. But the “genes” (generated) part is right on target.
You and I agree on the “only” part, right? So show me any NT scripture where the “genes” part decidedly means something other than “generated” or “caused to exist”.
peace and love,
mikeHi Marty,
When asked about your belief that Jesus was begotten of God when he was born of Mary, you said:
Quote Yes, that is what I believe, but how do you then teach that Jesus pre-existed this event? I personally believe the scriptures speak of three begettings of Jesus. One before time as we know it, one as a human, and one as a “re-begetting” after he died.
You said:
Quote God our Father revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and I doubt that John would call him a begotten god in one place and in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave “His Only Begotten Son” …” in another place. John wrote his gospel AFTER he wrote Revelation, during which he had the vision of Jesus wearing the robe that said “Word of God”. So that is why he called Jesus “the Word” in his gospel. His whole gospel has to do with Jesus, from the first sentence to the last, not an actual “word” that God had spoke. What part of “the Word became flesh” did you not understand?
Anyway, John calls the Word (Jesus) “a god” in 1:1, and “the only begotten god” in 1:18. It is not John's, but Jesus' words in 3:16 and 3:18 about being God's only begotten Son.
Marty, is Jesus begotten? Is Jesus a god? How does scripture answer those two questions?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,08:33) You say that the Son of God was not originally eternal, but you say he pre-existed and is returning to the glory that he had with the Father by the statement that he made relative to the “Son of man ascending where he was before”.
That is correct Marty.Romans 6:9 NIV
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over himThis one shows he wasn't originally eternal. And there are so many scriptures that talk of his pre-existence, I don't know where to start. How could all things be made thru HIM (not some foreordained notion of who he would eventually be) if he wasn't around when all things were made?
mike
Hi Mike,
I would like to point out that when Paul calls Isaac the only begotten of Abraham he is talking about the only begotten that the promise was given about.Heb 11:17-18
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
18 it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.”
NASUAnother thing I wanted to say is about this word monogenes. This word is made up of two words as you know. Also, the mono part is an adjective and the gennao part is a verb/an action word. If it is translated together as 'single, only of its kind'…it does not reflect any action and that is the problem with translating it that way. imo.
The correct translation is 'only begotten' and I know that you agree with that. I just wanted to share my latest insights about it. The action is present when translated as only begotten.
You had a very good post a while back about all the translations that were using the greek words 'monogenes theos' instead of monogenes huios. The NET Bible translators even agree to the monogenes theos Greek manuscript here.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2010,11:00) Hi Mike,
I would like to point out that when Paul calls Isaac the only begotten of Abraham he is talking about the only begotten that the promise was given about.Another thing I wanted to say is about this word monogenes. This word is made up of two words as you know. Also, the mono part is an adjective and the gennao part is a verb/an action word. If it is translated together as 'single, only of its kind'…it does not reflect any action and that is the problem with translating it that way. imo.
Hi Kathi,Yes, that's how I understand the Isaac thing also. It's just that the 3 J's like to use that one as some kind of proof that “monogenes” didn't mean a literal begetting. So I was pointing out it is the “only” part that takes a little understanding, not the “begotten” part……..that part means exactly what it says.
And that is great to know about the “genes” part being an action! Let's wait and see what the Greek scholar Jack has to say about that one.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike:
You say:
Quote I personally believe the scriptures speak of three begettings of Jesus. One before time as we know it, one as a human, and one as a “re-begetting” after he died. It doesn't matter what you personally believe. What do the scriptures say? He was begotten by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary, and then he was begotten by the Spirit of God from the dead. He was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the spirit of holiness.
And so that is what Colossians 1 states:
Quote Colossians 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn(Protokos) of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, thefirstborn(Protokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
And so, where do you see that he was begotten of God prior to this by the scriptures?
You say:
Quote ohn wrote his gospel AFTER he wrote Revelation, during which he had the vision of Jesus wearing the robe that said “Word of God”. So that is why he called Jesus “the Word” in his gospel. His whole gospel has to do with Jesus, from the first sentence to the last, not an actual “word” that God had spoke. What part of “the Word became flesh” did you not understand? In the gospel of John, it is the prophetic Word of God that became flesh. Jesus the promised messiah, the promised child, i.e. Isaac, the promised child, became a reality. In the book of revelation, he is called the Word of God because he obeyed it even unto death on the cross, and as head of the church which is his body he watches over the Word to perform it, that is why he is called the Word of God in Revelation.
Quote Hebrews 3:3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
And you say:
Quote Anyway, John calls the Word (Jesus) “a god” in 1:1, and “the only begotten god” in 1:18. It is not John's, but Jesus' words in 3:16 and 3:18 about being God's only begotten Son. Marty, is Jesus begotten? Is Jesus a god? How does scripture answer those two questions?
No, Mike, John did not call Jesus [a god] in John 1.c. He said “the Word was God” or God was the Word, and yes, Jesus said “he who has seen me has seen the Father, and he was speaking of seeing the Father through the works of obedience to the Word of God”, and Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”, and so that is what that is about. God's character was made manifest through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to the Word of God.
And yes, of course, as you said in your logic, Jesus was begotten, but no, not a begotten god. He is “the Only Begotten Son of the Living God” and the “firstborn” or the first begotten from the dead.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty I was just reading your post, just one point, you said that The Word of God is God;s Word, so that Word became flesh? That makes no sense at all. Jehovah God has never been heard or seen, only He that has been with Him from the beginning has seen Him, The Word of God that became Jesus…Rev. 19:13-16 explains it nicely…. read and learn about it….KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME AS THAT AGAIN…. WITH THOUSANDS OF ANGELS……
Peace IreneQuote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,11:54) Hi Mike: You say:
Quote
I personally believe the scriptures speak of three begettings of Jesus. One before time as we know it, one as a human, and one as a “re-begetting” after he died.It doesn't matter what you personally believe. What do the scriptures say? He was begotten by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary, and then he was begotten by the Spirit of God from the dead. He was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the spirit of holiness.
Hi Marty,Of course what I personally believe matters. Just like what you think matters. It is what we THINK the scriptures are saying that forms our understanding of God and His Son.
What Psalm 2:7 says WAY BEFORE Jesus was flesh is, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you.”
So I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that scripture is Jesus telling the decree he heard eons ago. You may PERSONALLY BELIEVE that it is prophetic.
Now to that I add many many scriptures that I PERSONALLY BELIEVE speak of Jesus' pre-existence. I will list just one for now:
Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”What does that say to you Marty?
And you even quote Col 1:15 that says he was the “firstborn of all creation”. What does that mean to you Marty?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,09:53) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 18 2010,16:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2010,15:49)
Thanks for the encouragement Marty.
But apparently in the case of Jesus, a begotten Son IS a begotten god. At least that's what John says. I'm just following scripture Marty. It says it, so I believe. What's the big deal anyway? We know he was begotten.
Scripture says he is [ [ [ a ] ] ] god.mike
Hi Mike,Prob.9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will
be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Neither the Hebrew language nor the Greek language have indefinite articles.
Also know: Neither the Hebrew Masoretic Texts nor the Greek language have a word for “OF”!In written grammar there is what is called the article.
In the English we have a total of Three articles; both the
definite and the indefinite. The word THE is the definite article.
The definite article is used to define something or someone that is
definite. A and AN are both indefinite articles being less specific. There
is only one article in Hebrew [ה], it is definite and pronounced Hä and Hey.
It's used twice in GOD’s Holy Name יהוה pronounced YÄ-hä-vā and spelled YHVH
in English. There's at least 12 different articles in Greek; and all of them are definite.
The determining factor for which one that is used is based upon whether the case is Dative,
Nominative, Genitive, Vocative, or Accusative. Some of the Greek articles are ο, τον, του, and τω.Conclusion: Each and every time an indefinite article is used in The Scriptures it is ALWAYS used at
the translators discretion; nothing to build doctrine on! (Isaiah 55:8-9)And in like manor ALL personal
pronouns (He, She, Him, Her, His & it) ALL originate form ONE GREEK WORD: [αὐτός] (autos) ow-tos'!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Yes sir, I am aware of these facts. The indefinite articles are implied, and the “of” is implied by the genitive use of the words in certain cases.
What point would you like to make with this information, sir?
mike
Hi Mike,You are trying to build doctrine on the added 'indefinite article',
added by the those who made the N.W.T.(JW's version) Bible.
This is the point that I HAVE MADE, you do not seem to like!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2010,14:55) Hi Mike, You are trying to build doctrine on the added 'indefinite article',
added by the those who made the N.W.T.(JW's version) Bible.
This is the point that I HAVE MADE, you do not seem to like!
Actually Ed,I don't know where you got the idea I “didn't like” it. I didn't even know what you were on about…..that's why I asked.
Shoud we delete all of the English-added indefinite articles from the scriptures then?
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Both of those bolded a's are added in. The sentence structure is virtually identical to John 1:1. Why do all translations add the a's here, but not to John 1:1?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,15:09) Actually Ed, Shoud we delete all of the English-added indefinite articles from the scriptures then?
mike
Hi Mike,Now, 'you' are going all the way to the 'other' extreme?
No, you should treat all indefinite articles and the word “OF”
like all the italicized words that are inserted into the AKJV Bible;
knowing that these words that are not really in the original texts.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,15:09) Actually Ed, Both of those bolded a's are added in. The sentence structure is virtually identical to John 1:1. Why do all translations add the a's here, but not to John 1:1?
mike
Hi Mike,Why do you think the 'a' should or the indefinite article be added to John 1:1?
I just can't help it, I said I was gone, but I was thinking,
A Day is as a Thousand years, a Thousand years as one Day,
Was it our time or God's time ?
Which Day did God beget Jesus ?
What is beget ?
Spiritual beget….
To choose, To lift up, To take away from the others,
What is God – God is Love,
Love is not just a word found in the Dictionary
Pure love is not as this world knows,
Though it can be found here… Getting close to it… It can end, diminish, grow old, and hurt.
God's love is pure and eternal because God is pure and eternal,
Did God beget Jesus once, twice, three or four times –
A day to God is as a thousand days.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 19 2010,00:46) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 18 2010,22:29) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
Then answer these questions!The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?Georg
Is Christ a “SHE?” Does this female Christ live with a female companion named “Prudence?”“I wisdom DWELL WITH Prudence” 8:12
Proverbs 8-9 is poetic and you are destroying the beauty of the poem. It is PERSONIFICATION for wisdom which is a quality of the soul. If we truly have wisdom then we have prudence also. It is obvious from your carnal handling of the poetic scriptures that you have neither.
Roo
He, funny guy.That's not what I ask; I take it you don't have the answers.
Georg
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 19 2010,02:23) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,01:55) Hey, KJ stop being personal, you don't know it all, do you? Or are you so carnal to even admit that?
I have gone around the circle with you about just that Scripture. You have called me uneducated too. My reply to you was that t8 also would be that then. We are not the only ones that believe God always had wisdom and we should look to God for that and not a poetic Book…. If it is poetic to say the least…Wisdom being a craftsman or that The Word of God, which was Jesus at the time, would be God's delight, just doesn't cut it for me. Believe what you want…
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,I apologize again. I thought you were Georg but that's no excuse. I am working on my manner but the ignorance here really gets to me because it's willful.
No I do not know it all.
KJ
,Irene is a little more sensitive then I am; I wasn't hurt by what you said at all, in fact, I would have to go back and see what it was, but don't feel like it.
I think I have come on a little strong my self at times.Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,14:34) Marty I was just reading your post, just one point, you said that The Word of God is God;s Word, so that Word became flesh? That makes no sense at all. Jehovah God has never been heard or seen, only He that has been with Him from the beginning has seen Him, The Word of God that became Jesus…Rev. 19:13-16 explains it nicely…. read and learn about it….KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. THE WORD OF GOD WILL COME AS THAT AGAIN…. WITH THOUSANDS OF ANGELS……
Peace Irene
Hi Irene:I don't know why this doesn't make sense to you. Beginning in Genesis 3 and throughout the OT, the Word of God speaks prophetically or symbolically of the coming of the Messiah.
God knew that a particular point in time he would conceive His Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and so, this what the Word was made flesh means. In parenthesis we have in the following “and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”. That explains what is being said by the “Word was made flesh” to me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2010,14:36) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2010,11:54) Hi Mike: You say:
Quote
I personally believe the scriptures speak of three begettings of Jesus. One before time as we know it, one as a human, and one as a “re-begetting” after he died.It doesn't matter what you personally believe. What do the scriptures say? He was begotten by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the vrigin Mary, and then he was begotten by the Spirit of God from the dead. He was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the spirit of holiness.
Hi Marty,Of course what I personally believe matters. Just like what you think matters. It is what we THINK the scriptures are saying that forms our understanding of God and His Son.
What Psalm 2:7 says WAY BEFORE Jesus was flesh is, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you.”
So I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that scripture is Jesus telling the decree he heard eons ago. You may PERSONALLY BELIEVE that it is prophetic.
Now to that I add many many scriptures that I PERSONALLY BELIEVE speak of Jesus' pre-existence. I will list just one for now:
Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”What does that say to you Marty?
And you even quote Col 1:15 that says he was the “firstborn of all creation”. What does that mean to you Marty?
mike
Hi Mike:No, it does not matter what I think if it is merely an opinion of mine which cannot be supported by scripture.
There may be scriptures which you can interpret to mean that Jesus pre-existed but there is not scripture which states that definitively.
And what does first begotten of every creature mean, Mike? If you are indicating pre-existence by this scripture, then show me where he was begotten prior to his being begotten by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.
Studying the scripture in Colossians, and praying to God for understanding of what Paul is saying by “Firstborn of every creature”, it would seem to mean that he is the First begotten of God and this being the case, he is God's heir. The scripture begins with stating that we have been translated into the Kingdom of his dear Son, and then it states that the image of the invisible God, and then that he the “firstborn of every creature”, Why? The Apostle Paul states “for by him were all things created that are in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: All things were created by him and for him. (He did not create everything or else it would say for himself here not “for him”.)
The following scriptures support what I have indicated above:
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And the scripture that you post about his origins being from the ancient of days is true. His origins are from the very beginning. He was foreordained.
Galatians 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Quote 1 Peter 1:10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2010,08:51) Hi Mike: No, it does not matter what I think if it is merely an opinion of mine which cannot be supported by scripture.
Jesus' pre-existence is supported by many scriptures Marty.Matthew said Micah 5:2 was a prophecy about Jesus. How is that not a scripture about the origins of Jesus being from “ancient times”?
Please just answer to the scripture.
mike
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