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Also, Mike, you rightly indicate that the Son was not orginially eternal, but the Word of God is eternal, and so in his preexistent state was he a Son or an angel or something else. What say you, Mike? And he is returning to his former glory?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:11) Hi Mike: Just noticed something in the following scripture:
Quote John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. That in paranthesis indicates that this is speaking of “the glory as of the “only begotten of the Father” when the Word was made flesh, that is this is looking a him as begotten as man, and not as someone begotten of God prior to being born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary.
Mike, there is no begotten god. This is not consistent with the rest of the scriptures. The Word that was spoken through Jesus was God speaking through him and so of course it shows his attributes and is made manifest through the works that Jesus did in obedience to that same Word. Jesus is the “express image of His, God's person”.
And the Logos was with God in the beginning that is what the scripture state, but I do not see any scripture that states that the Logos was a sentient person.
We all who are born again should be displaying that same spirit of Love through obedience to the Word of God. God is a Spirit and they that worship must worship him in that same spirit and in truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,Excellent Post! One that is also VERY consistent with these verses as well…
Mark.13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall
be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the HolySpirit.
Luke 12:12 For the HolySpirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Matt.10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:11) That in paranthesis indicates that this is speaking of “the glory as of the “only begotten of the Father” when the Word was made flesh, that is this is looking a him as begotten as man, and not as someone begotten of God prior to being born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary.
Hi Marty,I take it you think Jesus was begotten of God when he was born of Mary?
That would be my understanding too, if not for the scriptures like Col 1 and Micah 5 and Rev 3 and many others.
I'm glad you don't think it was some kind of a “mystical” begetting when he was baptized or raised from the dead.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 18 2010,14:11) If every time someone post something they have to PROVE IT TO YOU – you not worth it Mike. What do you mean “Show me the Scripture, Philip”, have you been studying for so long and yet do not know them?
Thomas, Happy are those who have NOT SEEN and yet Believe!
I'm glad you think I'm not worth it. Maybe you'll leave me alone so I can discuss scriptures with people like Marty, who disagrees with me but always posts scriptures to back his beliefs. Jack and Keith and Kathi and Nick and t8 and ……..well, just about everyone except you posts scriptures JA.And the reason I keep asking for it is because I think I know which one it is, and I know you are mistaken in your understanding of it. And if you would ever post it, I would show you that it doesn't say anyone is “begotten” by God.
There is only one in the scriptures that I know of that is said to be begotten by God……His ONLY begotten Son.
You see, I'm thinking 1 Peter. If that is not it, then maybe you have some info I wasn't even aware of. I read the Bible for the first time 2 years ago. What makes you think I know all of the scriptures by heart? Maybe, like…..3 of them.
So what's the big deal anyway? Shouldn't you be glad to spread God's Word around?peace and love to you my angry friend,
mikeQuote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:15) Hi Mike: Finally, I believe that you have it. Very good Mike. We're making progress. Good logic. It lines up with the scriptures.
A begotten Son not a begotten god.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Thanks for the encouragement Marty. But apparently in the case of Jesus, a begotten Son IS a begotten god. At least that's what John says. I'm just following scripture Marty. It says it, so I believe. What's the big deal anyway? We know he was begotten. Scripture says he is a god.
mike
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:36) Also, Mike, you rightly indicate that the Son was not orginially eternal, but the Word of God is eternal, and so in his preexistent state was he a Son or an angel or something else. What say you, Mike? And he is returning to his former glory? Love in Christ,
Marty
Jesus is eternal now. He is still “the Word of God” as Revelations points out. So the Word is now eternal.Am I missing something……it feels like I am. Help me out here Marty.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2010,15:45) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 18 2010,14:11) If every time someone post something they have to PROVE IT TO YOU – you not worth it Mike. What do you mean “Show me the Scripture, Philip”, have you been studying for so long and yet do not know them?
Thomas, Happy are those who have NOT SEEN and yet Believe!
I'm glad you think I'm not worth it. Maybe you'll leave me alone so I can discuss scriptures with people like Marty, who disagrees with me but always posts scriptures to back his beliefs. Jack and Keith and Kathi and Nick and t8 and ……..well, just about everyone except you posts scriptures JA.And the reason I keep asking for it is because I think I know which one it is, and I know you are mistaken in your understanding of it. And if you would ever post it, I would show you that it doesn't say anyone is “begotten” by God.
There is only one in the scriptures that I know of that is said to be begotten by God……His ONLY begotten Son.
You see, I'm thinking 1 Peter. If that is not it, then maybe you have some info I wasn't even aware of. I read the Bible for the first time 2 years ago. What makes you think I know all of the scriptures by heart? Maybe, like…..3 of them.
So what's the big deal anyway? Shouldn't you be glad to spread God's Word around?peace and love to you my angry friend,
mike
Hi Mike,Are you no longer JustAskin's begotten brother?
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2010,15:49) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:15) Hi Mike: Finally, I believe that you have it. Very good Mike. We're making progress. Good logic. It lines up with the scriptures.
A begotten Son not a begotten god.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Thanks for the encouragement Marty. But apparently in the case of Jesus, a begotten Son IS a begotten god. At least that's what John says. I'm just following scripture Marty. It says it, so I believe. What's the big deal anyway? We know he was begotten. Scripture says he is [ [ [ a ] ] ] god.
mike
Hi Mike,Prob.9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will
be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Neither the Hebrew language nor the Greek language have indefinite articles.
Also know: Neither the Hebrew Masoretic Texts nor the Greek language have a word for “OF”!In written grammar there is what is called the article.
In the English we have a total of Three articles; both the
definite and the indefinite. The word THE is the definite article.
The definite article is used to define something or someone that is
definite. A and AN are both indefinite articles being less specific. There
is only one article in Hebrew [ה], it is definite and pronounced Hä and Hey.
It's used twice in GOD’s Holy Name יהוה pronounced YÄ-hä-vā and spelled YHVH
in English. There's at least 12 different articles in Greek; and all of them are definite.
The determining factor for which one that is used is based upon whether the case is Dative,
Nominative, Genitive, Vocative, or Accusative. Some of the Greek articles are ο, τον, του, and τω.Conclusion: Each and every time an indefinite article is used in The Scriptures it is ALWAYS used at
the translators discretion; nothing to build doctrine on! (Isaiah 55:8-9)And in like manor ALL personal
pronouns (He, She, Him, Her, His & it) ALL originate form ONE GREEK WORD: [αὐτός] (autos) ow-tos'!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2010,08:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2010,17:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2010,23:18) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,21:47) Hi Mike: What Greek manuscripts have “only begotten god” at John 1:18? The Greek intelinear that I have looked has the Greek “huios”, and YLT has it Son also. This would also be consistent with the rest of the scriptures such as John 3:16, & Matthew 16 for example.
There is no “begotten god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,
Allow me to help you. The Nestlé-Aland 26 original Greek manuscript is where you will find monogenes theos…begotten God.
YesAnd the NASB is the lonely Translation on Biblegateway.com and Bluelettebible.org. that translates it that way.
WJ
Here's some others to keep the NASB company Keith.NET John 1:18
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.NIV Joh 1:18
No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.NASB Joh 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.NLT Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart; he has told us about him.MSG Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father, has made him plain as day.NRSV Joh 1:18
No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.NWT John 1:18
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.All of the translations are of “monogenes theos”. Only the NASB and the NWT translate it correctly though.
mike
TO ALL:Mike ALWAYS leaves out the ESV when he cites a cluster of translations together. The ESV is based in the oldest manuscripts we have. It is called the Critical Text. The ESV reads thus:
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
Footnotes:
John 1:18 Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son
John 1:18 Greek in the bosom of the FatherNote that the footnote says, “or only One who is God.” Mike can argue until he turns blue that “monogenes” means “begotten” and he just cannot prove it. The word “monogenes” according to its common usage in biblical times simply meant “only.”
The LXX bears this out. Gods are not “begotten.”
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
Then answer these questions!The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,22:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:43) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
GeorgeAre you saying there was a time God did not have wisdom?
Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
It says the Lord brought wisdom forth not created, and what does “appointed from eternity mean” unless wisdom was from eternity?
It is pure nonsense to say Jesus was created which would make him of the created order like everything else.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him “nothing came into being that has come into being“. John 1:1-3
If “nothing came into being that has come into being” without him then he could not have been part of the created for he did not create himself.
What is your reason to believe that at some point from eternity God did not have wisdom?
WJ
“””Are you saying there was a time God did not have wisdom?”””
Did I say that? Where?The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?“””What is your reason to believe that at some point from eternity God did not have wisdom?”””
This is what you ask me, my point is just the opposite; if you believe that all these scriptures refer to wisdom, than you must believe that wisdom had a beginning. YOU'RE RIGHT, PURE NONSENSE.Georg
Hello, WJ, are you there?Or is the Kangaroo your word/spokesperson now?
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 18 2010,22:29) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
Then answer these questions!The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?Georg
Is Christ a “SHE?” Does this female Christ live with a female companion named “Prudence?”“I wisdom DWELL WITH Prudence” 8:12
Proverbs 8-9 is poetic and you are destroying the beauty of the poem. It is PERSONIFICATION for wisdom which is a quality of the soul. If we truly have wisdom then we have prudence also. It is obvious from your carnal handling of the poetic scriptures that you have neither.
Roo
Hey, KJ stop being personal, you don't know it all, do you? Or are you so carnal to even admit that?
I have gone around the circle with you about just that Scripture. You have called me uneducated too. My reply to you was that t8 also would be that then. We are not the only ones that believe God always had wisdom and we should look to God for that and not a poetic Book…. If it is poetic to say the least…Wisdom being a craftsman or that The Word of God, which was Jesus at the time, would be God's delight, just doesn't cut it for me. Believe what you want…
Peace to you and yours IreneQuote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,01:55) Hey, KJ stop being personal, you don't know it all, do you? Or are you so carnal to even admit that?
I have gone around the circle with you about just that Scripture. You have called me uneducated too. My reply to you was that t8 also would be that then. We are not the only ones that believe God always had wisdom and we should look to God for that and not a poetic Book…. If it is poetic to say the least…Wisdom being a craftsman or that The Word of God, which was Jesus at the time, would be God's delight, just doesn't cut it for me. Believe what you want…
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,I apologize.
Roo
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,01:55) Hey, KJ stop being personal, you don't know it all, do you? Or are you so carnal to even admit that?
I have gone around the circle with you about just that Scripture. You have called me uneducated too. My reply to you was that t8 also would be that then. We are not the only ones that believe God always had wisdom and we should look to God for that and not a poetic Book…. If it is poetic to say the least…Wisdom being a craftsman or that The Word of God, which was Jesus at the time, would be God's delight, just doesn't cut it for me. Believe what you want…
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,I apologize again. I thought you were Georg but that's no excuse. I am working on my manner but the ignorance here really gets to me because it's willful.
No I do not know it all.
KJ
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 19 2010,01:55) Hey, KJ stop being personal, you don't know it all, do you? Or are you so carnal to even admit that?
I have gone around the circle with you about just that Scripture. You have called me uneducated too. My reply to you was that t8 also would be that then. We are not the only ones that believe God always had wisdom and we should look to God for that and not a poetic Book…. If it is poetic to say the least…Wisdom being a craftsman or that The Word of God, which was Jesus at the time, would be God's delight, just doesn't cut it for me. Believe what you want…
Peace to you and yours Irene
Irene,It is commentators on both sides who have robbed us of enjoying the beauty of the poetic form. Do you think you can try to read Proverbs 8 not as the controversial passage men made it to be but as the beautiful poetic statement that Solomon intended it to be?
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 18 2010,08:46) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 18 2010,22:29) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,22:16) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,21:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 15 2010,07:40) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,07:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,07:20) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,06:52) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,14:40) You ask, “””Was God ever without his Word?”””
If you mean his son by, WORD, yes; you can read about his, the son's/word, beginning in Prov. 8:22-30.
Why did John refer to Jesus as the word? Here is the reason.
God was never without his Word.There is no scripture that says Jesus who is called the “Word of God” was created.
Proverbs 8 is merely speculation because the “Word” or Jesus name is not in Prov 8.
WJ
I am surprised you didn't say, Pr. 8:22-31 was the beginning of wisdom; that is what I was told by some ministers.
What do you think those scriptures are saying, who do they refer to? have you actually read them?
Let me put them up for you.Pro 8:22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
Pro 8:23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Pro 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pro 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
Pro 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pro 8:28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pro 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pro 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
Pro 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
I am trying to help you understand, nothing more.
If this doesn't show you the preexistence of Jesus, nothing else will.Georg
GeorgeI believe in the Preexistence of Jesus. But I do not believe Prov 8 is speaking of Jesus.
I think he is just talking about personified wisdom for all through Proverbs he speaks of wisdom.
It is merely conjecture to say this is the “Word” or “Jesus”. Why would Solomon give wisdom a female gender?
WJ
Like I said, you can believe what ever you want, but,…if this is speaking of wisdom, are you suggesting God had to create wisdom? if he had to create it, what gave him the wisdom to create it?
Pure nonsense.What is you reason to refuse to believe truth?
Georg
Georg,No! You are the one gurgitating “pure nonsense.” Wisdom is called “she” and a “woman” in chapter 9. It's figurative dude! Use the mind God gave you!
the Roo
I'm not qualified to teach blind people.Georg
Georg,Your remark is typical of the uneducated.
Proverbs 9,
“Wisdom has built HER house. SHE has hewn out HER seven pillars; SHE has slaughtered HER meat, SHE has mixed HER wine, SHE has also furnished HER table….”
Who is blind? Wisdom is CLEARLY personified as a virtuous wife. Chapter 9 is a CONTINUATION of chapter 8. So you should take off your blinders, scrap all your former presuppositions and start over.
the Roo
Then answer these questions!The Lord brought forth what, wisdom?
What do you mean by “brought forth”?
Explain how God “brought forth” wisdom, it says; “as the FIRST of his WORKS”.
Did wisdom have a beginning, v. 23?
Was wisdom given birth, v. 25?
Was wisdom the craftsman at God's side, v. 30?
Was wisdom always rejoicing in the presence of God, v. 30?
Was wisdom rejoicing in the whole world and delighting in mankind, v. 31?Georg
Is Christ a “SHE?” Does this female Christ live with a female companion named “Prudence?”“I wisdom DWELL WITH Prudence” 8:12
Proverbs 8-9 is poetic and you are destroying the beauty of the poem. It is PERSONIFICATION for wisdom which is a quality of the soul. If we truly have wisdom then we have prudence also. It is obvious from your carnal handling of the poetic scriptures that you have neither.
Roo
True JackI gave up on his nonsense.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2010,15:32) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,14:11) That in paranthesis indicates that this is speaking of “the glory as of the “only begotten of the Father” when the Word was made flesh, that is this is looking a him as begotten as man, and not as someone begotten of God prior to being born into this world from the womb of the virgin Mary.
Hi Marty,I take it you think Jesus was begotten of God when he was born of Mary?
That would be my understanding too, if not for the scriptures like Col 1 and Micah 5 and Rev 3 and many others.
I'm glad you don't think it was some kind of a “mystical” begetting when he was baptized or raised from the dead.
mike
Hi Mike:Yes, that is what I believe, but how do you then teach that Jesus pre-existed this event?
And I will answer here relative to the begotten god, God our Father revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and I doubt that John would call him a begotten god in one place and in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave “His Only Begotten Son” …” in another place.
There are variations in what the manuscripts apparently say, but the Word of God should be consistent. He is the Son of the Living God.
You say that the Son of God was not originally eternal, but you say he pre-existed and is returning to the glory that he had with the Father by the statement that he made relative to the “Son of man ascending where he was before”.
The Logos was with God in the beginning. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God…”
The Word of God is eternal, and it will never die. The Word of God, “God has spoken” in may ways in divers manners;
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Love in Christ,
MartyEdj,
Ha ha..Mike, no longer begotten…how fractal…
Mike was my first begotten…then Karmarie…
For he taketh away the first in order to establish the second.
Edj, well spotted.
I should add that to the 'Fractal Scriptures thread.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 18 2010,16:52) Hi Mike, Prob.9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will
be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
Neither the Hebrew language nor the Greek language have indefinite articles.
Also know: Neither the Hebrew Masoretic Texts nor the Greek language have a word for “OF”!
Hi Ed,Yes sir, I am aware of these facts. The indefinite articles are implied, and the “of” is implied by the genitive use of the words in certain cases.
What point would you like to make with this information, sir?
mike
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