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Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,12:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,16:55) Hi SEEKING Example of denying certain scriptures in order to support manmade doctrine.
Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,11:24) he was raised from the dead For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life,
“I can do nothing on my own”
he was raised from the dead….Jesus also said…”I will raise it up”
WJ posted Apr.3, 2009Quote Therefore doth my Father love me, because “ I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, THAT I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN. NO MAN TAKETH IT FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN ”. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:17-20 Ditto your above statement –
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle–not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Quote When you decide to take your Arian glasses off you will see that there are no contradictions at all. And the name of YOUR glasses please?
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi SEEKINGYou accuse me of denying those scriptures. I dont deny them.
But I also believe what Jesus said.
I believe all the scriptures in that I believe both the Father and the Son together raised his Body.
You only believe the Father did, therefore whiting out Jesus words.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,18:13) quote=WorshippingJesus,April 03 2009,17:18]If we have no record that the disciples did greater works than he did then maybe you misunderstand him What scripture did I white out?
WJ
Jesus stated PLAINLY – Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do;
and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. because I am going to the Father.You state, “maybe you misunderstand him”. You don't take Jesus at his word therefore whiting out Jesus' words. Isn't that how you cliam I do it? Not applicable when you do it?
Do you not consider the implications of what you say?Quote Did you even take time to read my previous post? The greater question is “don't you read mine.” Your statement and my inquiry were right before you –
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,17:18)
If we have no record that the disciples did greater works than he did then maybe you misunderstand him.Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,13:04)
Did Jesus preach the gospel of his death, burial, and resurrection?
Did Jesus preach to the Gentiles or give that assignment to Paul?
Did Jesus preach the gospel to the geographical ends that the Apostels did?
Can Jesus not be taken at his word that they would do greater works?
You don't have the white out, out again, do you?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,17:08) Do you think the “greater things” Jesus spoke of was a miracle? Can you show me where any Apostle or Prophet did greater things?
Jesus with his own hands laid the foundation of the earth.
Can you beat that?
Maybe what you think Jesus meant is not what he meant at all.
WJ
Mar 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”I will go out on a limb and state that the delivery of the message of salvation is the greater miracle. Laying the foundation of the earth with all men left to die in their sin that seperates them from God would be a travesty.
Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”The message of entry into the kingdom of God is hard to beat.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,10:13) Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. but only what he sees the Father doing.
Joh 5:30“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Wow Guys,
Did you notice Seeking's butcher job on John's narrarive? He whited out verses 20-21 altogether. Then he inserted verses 19 & 30 of John 5 in their place. Now here is the inspired narrative as it was written:Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said (2:19-22) Now here is Seeking's re-written version,
Quote Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. but only what he sees the Father doing.
Joh 5:30″I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Seeking cannot allow the narrative in John 2 to speak on its own.
Seeking quoted Jesus:
Quote For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. but only what he sees the Father doing Amen! When the Father raised up Christ's dead body the Son did likewise! The Son did what He saw the Father doing! The Father and the Son “act as one” which is what non-trinitarians confess.
thinker
WJ said to Seeking:
Quote I believe all the scriptures in that I believe both the Father and the Son together raised his Body. You only believe the Father did, therefore whiting out Jesus words.
WJ,
Seeking rearranged John's narrative to suit his purposes. In my post immediately above I noted it.Note how John wrote it,
Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said (2:19-22) Then note how Seeking re-wrote it,
Quote Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. but only what he sees the Father doing.
Joh 5:30″I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Seeking whited out verses 20-21 altogether. Then He inserted verses 19 & 30 from chap 5 instead.
thinker
Seeking said to WJ:
Quote Do you hold “thinkers” view that non-trinitarians are immature and that their parents must not have schooled them properly! Seeking,
I will NOT charge your parents for your butcher job on John's narrative. You whited out verses 20-21 of the narrative and inserted to verses from another narrative in their placeQuote Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. but only what he sees the Father doing.
Joh 5:30″I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
But John wrote it this way:
Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said (2:19-22) So tell us where you learned how to do this.
thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote Thinker,
I know that is confusing with the two saying that they each will raise up Christ from the dead but I have a simple explanation.What did the angel say when the women came to the tomb early this first day of the week after Jesus was crucified?
Matt 28:5-65 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye; for I know that ye seek Jesus, who hath been crucified.
6 He is not here; for he is risen, even as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
ASVThat was the Father's raising Him.
This is Christ raising Himself:
John 20:1717 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
ASVI think that explains the confusion.
LU,
There is no “confusion” to clear up. Jesus said, “Destroy this temple (or body) and in THREE DAYS I will raise it up.” You are saying that he was referring to His ascension. But His acsension was forty-three days after His “temple” was destroyed.Non-trinitarians believe that the statement “I and the Father are one” means that they “act as one.” But they obviously do not believe that this was always the case. So how do you decide when they did and did not act as one? On what grounds do you pick and choose?
thinker
Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,14:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,18:13) quote=WorshippingJesus,April 03 2009,17:18]If we have no record that the disciples did greater works than he did then maybe you misunderstand him What scripture did I white out?
WJ
Jesus stated PLAINLY – Joh 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do;
and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. because I am going to the Father.You state, “maybe you misunderstand him”. You don't take Jesus at his word therefore whiting out Jesus' words. Isn't that how you cliam I do it? Not applicable when you do it?
Do you not consider the implications of what you say?Quote Did you even take time to read my previous post? The greater question is “don't you read mine.” Your statement and my inquiry were right before you –
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,17:18)
If we have no record that the disciples did greater works than he did then maybe you misunderstand him.Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,13:04)
Did Jesus preach the gospel of his death, burial, and resurrection?
Did Jesus preach to the Gentiles or give that assignment to Paul?
Did Jesus preach the gospel to the geographical ends that the Apostels did?
Can Jesus not be taken at his word that they would do greater works?
You don't have the white out, out again, do you?
Hi SEEKINGSo after you read my previous post you still accuse me of whiting out the scripture? Since when does not understanding what Jesus said equates to whiting out scripture anyway?
My statement was to NH in answer to his claim that I was calling Jesus a liar and his view of the scripture being miracles, in which I pointed out that none of the Apostles that we know of did greater works than Jesus.
So this is what was said…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2009,12:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,12:11) Hi WJ,
So Jesus was not the son of God at all but was God.
Why did he lie,
or did he?
NHDid I say he lied?
If we have no record that the disciples did greater works than he did then maybe you misunderstand him.
I believe the greater works is done because he sent the Holy Spirit and now works through his “Many” membered Body.
WJ
But even after you read this you still say…
Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,14:18) You state, “maybe you misunderstand him”. You don't take Jesus at his word therefore whiting out Jesus' words. Isn't that how you cliam I do it? Not applicable when you do it?
Do you not consider the implications of what you say?Where is your comprehension of words?
I said “Maybe” you (NH) misunderstand him! Does that to you equate to me denying his words?
Seriously, you need to take a deep breath, and try to understand what is being said. I am really starting to think that you have a real problem engaging in serious dialogue and comprehending post especially when they are long.
WJ
Quote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,14:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,17:08) Do you think the “greater things” Jesus spoke of was a miracle? Can you show me where any Apostle or Prophet did greater things?
Jesus with his own hands laid the foundation of the earth.
Can you beat that?
Maybe what you think Jesus meant is not what he meant at all.
WJ
Mar 8:36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”I will go out on a limb and state that the delivery of the message of salvation is the greater miracle. Laying the foundation of the earth with all men left to die in their sin that seperates them from God would be a travesty.
Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”The message of entry into the kingdom of God is hard to beat.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi SEEKINGQuote (SEEKING @ April 04 2009,14:33)
I will go out on a limb and state that the delivery of the message of salvation is the greater miracle. Laying the foundation of the earth with all men left to die in their sin that seperates them from God would be a travesty.I like your point. But who is it that does the saving? Was it the Apostles, Prophets, or the Christians?
Since Jesus is the only one that can save a soul and reveal the Father then that would mean that he did the greater works.
However, since now Jesus has a many membered Body then that would mean he can work through his body and they can take part in doing the greater works, but they can never take claim to saving the soul or revealing the Father, only the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit gets that credit!
WJ
Lightenup wrote:
Quote I refer to the literal offspring of GOD who was in the beginning and later transferred to a flesh body within Mary and took on the limits of man.
If I understand you correctly you believe Jesus was a lesser god but does that still make him a deity and according to the Jewish religion there is only one deity. The word “Elohim” translated to god does probably not actually mean deity as it also referred to both men and angels at times. I would not refer to angels as lesser gods and probably not as demigods either though the later would be closer as scripture states angels are just a little higher than mankind.
Lightenup wrote:
Quote He is deity by birth before creation.
Scripture states he is the first born of every creature. Do you believe that means he was created (conceived) before all others were created (conceived)?
Lightenup wrote:
Quote He was not in the fullness of deity until after the cross.
That sounds like the Adoptionism though you seem to differ on the beginning since according to my sources the original doctrine taught Jesus was a mere human being and not a minor God as you seem to believe.
You seem to have similar beliefs to Nick though I do not believe he would quite say Jesus was even a minor deity that became God. He would probably go as far as to say he was a demigod and still is one. I am pretty sure he does not believe Jesus was adopted as God.
Now I have a question. Did Jesus give up his spiritual body and take on a fleshly body in Mary’s womb according to you?
You may be correct about the God speaking the Word and it being so though perhaps not in the way you intend.
Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the WayBut you say
“Since Jesus is the only one that can save a soul and reveal the Father then that would mean that he did the greater works.”You really are getting quite muddled as you desperately try to justify this dangerous nonsense.
WJ said to Seeking:
Quote Seriously, you need to take a deep breath, and try to understand what is being said. I am really starting to think that you have a real problem engaging in serious dialogue and comprehending post especially when they are long. WJ,
This why I keep my posts to Seeking at a minimum in words. There definitely is something wrong here. And don't forget how Seeking buthered up the John 2 narrative.thinker
Nick said:
Quote Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the WayNick,
I went through the concordance and found how many times the word “Saviour” is used. Here is what I found:God: 10 times
Christ: 13 times
Father: 0 times
God and Christ: 2 times
Here is one example of God and Christ:
Quote Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) It clearly says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior. So add one more reference to Jesus as “Savior.”
Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2) It does NOT say that the Father is the propitiation for our sins or that the Father uses Jesus as the “gate.” It clearly says that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
LU does not go as far as you and Seeking. LU seems to confess Christ as his Savior. But you and Seeking are in danger if you deny that Jesus IS the Savior.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 16 2009,06:41) theodorej wrote: Quote ….Do the math…it adds up to one ( 1)…..and he is God,the word is his means to create and his spirit is the essence of his power…. tj,
Please note Genesis 1:27,Quote So God created man in His own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them. Man is a plural unity. Man is called both “him” (singular) and “them” (plural). So God is also called “Him” and “Us”.
The word “one” may be a single individual or a group,
Quote 3: Designating a person, thing or group as contrasted with another or others (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) Elohim, or “Gods” is a single group as contrasted with others. Man is also a single group as contrasted with others
Quote …in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them thinker
Thinker, think about this.When you are referring to a group of people, do you say HIM, HIS, etc. No you say them, they, etc. So if your God is a group, then call them “THEY” & “THEM” etc.
Otherwise I will have to correct your grammar.
Something to think about Thinker.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2009,21:08) Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the WayBut you say
“Since Jesus is the only one that can save a soul and reveal the Father then that would mean that he did the greater works.”You really are getting quite muddled as you desperately try to justify this dangerous nonsense.
Yeah WJ.Likewise it is written that there is one Spirit and yet God the Father is the father of spirits. i.e., angels and the spirit of man.
So if you can understand this or if your theology allows you to understand and accept this, then you have the answer you are looking for.
Quote (thethinker @ April 04 2009,21:33) Nick said: Quote Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the WayNick,
I went through the concordance and found how many times the word “Saviour” is used. Here is what I found:God: 10 times
Christ: 13 times
Father: 0 times
God and Christ: 2 times
Here is one example of God and Christ:
Quote Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) It clearly says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior. So add one more reference to Jesus as “Savior.”
Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2) It does NOT say that the Father is the propitiation for our sins or that the Father uses Jesus as the “gate.” It clearly says that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
LU does not go as far as you and Seeking. LU seems to confess Christ as his Savior. But you and Seeking are in danger if you deny that Jesus IS the Savior.
thinker
Moses was a type of savour and even angels are there to save us from physical calamity.But ultimately it is God's will that he sends prophets, angels, the Christ as different types of saviours.
God is the saviour. All the others are doing his will.
Jesus said I only do that which I see my Father doing.
thinker…………God (Elohim) or Powers is (IN) Christ is through the Anointing . He now has the seven Powers (horns) and the seven Eyes (intellect) or Spirits, of GOD in Him. So we are looking for the appearing of Jesus and GOD, remember it is GOD (IN) Christ that is reconciling the World to HIMSELF, Not to Jesus, but to GOD. GOD (SPOKE) to us in times past (THROUGH) the Prophets has now spoken to us (THROUGH) A SON. Point is who was speaking , it says GOD SPOKE (TROUGH) THEM, and that includes the Prophets also. imo
Thinker loose the false teaching of the Trinity and the Preexistence and many thing will fall into place brother.
love and peace to you and yours …………………………………………gene
Quote (thethinker @ April 04 2009,21:33) Nick said: Quote Hi WJ,
God is the only saviour.
He uses His saviour son as the gate of the WayNick,
I went through the concordance and found how many times the word “Saviour” is used. Here is what I found:God: 10 times
Christ: 13 times
Father: 0 times
God and Christ: 2 times
Here is one example of God and Christ:
Quote Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) It clearly says that Jesus Christ is our God and Savior. So add one more reference to Jesus as “Savior.”
Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2) It does NOT say that the Father is the propitiation for our sins or that the Father uses Jesus as the “gate.” It clearly says that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
LU does not go as far as you and Seeking. LU seems to confess Christ as his Savior. But you and Seeking are in danger if you deny that Jesus IS the Savior.
thinker
Hi tt,
God is the Father.Jn8
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:Of course God wasn't the sacrificial propitiation.
God does not die. A man had to die for men.
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