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- thethinker,Mar. wrote:
[/quote]
Thinker,Christendom is divided over many things, I agree.
Trinitarians are divided over the essence of who Jesus is
though they claim he is God in one sense or another.You say non-trinitarians are divided. I am sure that is so but I do not know of them being divided over their essential belief
that Jesus is not equal to God the father.Trinitarian weakness is in that they differ in their essential doctrine as Appolinarius exemplified.
I believe I have asked this in the past, perhaps not of you,
with no concrete YES/NO answer; Is belief or non-belief in the trinitarian doctrine a matter of salvation?Blessings,
Seeking
Lightenup wrote
Quote Those who believe in Him are merely partakers of the nature. That nature is a NEW nature to those who believe but for the only begotten Son, it always was His nature as I understand it.
And that nature is the Word for it is with God and is God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2009,15:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2009,03:01) Hi Keith, Heb 10:5
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
NASUThe Father prepared the body for the Son, the Son did not prepare His own flesh body. So this is where the Father did something apart from the Son. The passage doesn't say “a body WE have prepared for me.”
Peace,
LU
Hi KathiThe word “prepare” does not mean “Create” or “Born”.
Through him all things were made; “WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE“. John 1:3
Do you think the Father prepared the Body without the Spirit of Jesus giving it life when the “Word” was “Tabernacled” (John 1:14 “Dwelt” among us) by entering into it?
“For as the body without the spirit is dead“, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
Or do you believe that the Spirit of Jesus was born at the conception of his body?
Again my statement stands…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2009,12:11) Of course isn’t this true concerning anything about God? THE FATHER NEVER DOES ANYTHING WITHOUT THE SON (including his natural birth) and the Son never does anything without the Father and the Spirit proceeds from both of them.
I wonder why?
Jesus took part in his natural birth when he “emptied himself” and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man. Phil 2
Blessings WJ
Hi Keith,
I believe that the spirit of the Son existed before creation which is many years before Mary's conception. I believe the body that was prepared for the Son was the flesh body which the spirit of the Son transferred to. The Son did not prepare His own body. The Father did that and He did that for the Son to tabernacle with us. He had a different type of body before that. I don't think we are told about His body before the flesh body but it was a heavenly type of body and not an earthly body.Blessing,
KathiQuote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2009,18:48) Lightenup wrote Quote Those who believe in Him are merely partakers of the nature. That nature is a NEW nature to those who believe but for the only begotten Son, it always was His nature as I understand it.
And that nature is the Word for it is with God and is God.
Kerwin,
The word is not a being with a nature. The Son is the Son of GOD and had the nature of royalty as a prince in His Father's kingdom from His beginning before creation. The Son didn't always reign but now does WITH His Father.God bless,
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,15:44) Hi lU,
There is more than one prince.[dan]
Hi Nick,
There was only one rightful heir to the throne, the rest are joint heirs by adoption.
LUHi LU,
Was Michael adopted?Daniel 10:13
“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.Daniel 10:21
“However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.Daniel 12:1
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.Hi Nick,
Michael was created, he was an angel, the Son of God that also became the Son of Man was not.
LULightenup wrote:
Quote The word is not a being with a nature.
I believe the word is describing a characteristic of God which is also shared by the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit by Jesus and through Jesus by those that believe he is the Anointed One of God. I believe this characteristic is referred to as nature in other places.
Lightenup wrote:
Quote The Son is the Son of GOD and had the nature of royalty as a prince in His Father's kingdom from His beginning before creation.
It is difficult to translate Hebrew concepts of divinity into the Greek concepts since the two religions were vastly different. The Hebrews only have one God and their term for divinity probably does not really match up to the Greek term since the Greeks had many gods. This has seemed to cause confusion in the Christian faith. It sounds like this confusion is affecting you.
I ask you to carefully consider these words and you will see that “divine nature” is not saying we will be made divine but rather that we are participating in God’s nature of true righteousness and holiness and will escape the pull of our evil desires. Why do you think it is different for Jesus who is the reflection of God’s nature of true righteousness and holiness?
2 Peter 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2009,01:32) Lightenup wrote: Quote The word is not a being with a nature.
I believe the word is describing a characteristic of God which is also shared by the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit by Jesus and through Jesus by those that believe he is the Anointed One of God. I believe this characteristic is referred to as nature in other places.
Lightenup wrote:
Quote The Son is the Son of GOD and had the nature of royalty as a prince in His Father's kingdom from His beginning before creation.
It is difficult to translate Hebrew concepts of divinity into the Greek concepts since the two religions were vastly different. The Hebrews only have one God and their term for divinity probably does not really match up to the Greek term since the Greeks had many gods. This has seemed to cause confusion in the Christian faith. It sounds like this confusion is affecting you.
I ask you to carefully consider these words and you will see that “divine nature” is not saying we will be made divine but rather that we are participating in God’s nature of true righteousness and holiness and will escape the pull of our evil desires. Why do you think it is different for Jesus who is the reflection of God’s nature of true righteousness and holiness?
2 Peter 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Hi Kerwin,
Thank you for your concern for me. I do not believe in more than one GOD as you seem to think but I know it is confusing. Let me try to clarify what I believe.Please take note of the way I use capital letters. Lately I have been trying to use all caps when I mean the ultimate, most high god and I write it as GOD. He is deity as the source of all things and in control of all things. He is also the Father of Christ.
Then, when I just capitalize the first letter as in “God,” I refer to the literal offspring of GOD who was in the beginning and later transferred to a flesh body within Mary and took on the limits of man. He is deity by birth before creation. He was not in the fulness of deity until after the cross. He then received power and authority over all except of course His Father.
And finally, there are gods, no capital letters at all. Those are ones who were placed in their position as gods and given recognition as ones who have authority over something and are either for GOD (Moses and the judges and angels) or against GOD (satan).
So, you see, I believe in one GOD, He just happened to have a literal Son through which He extends Himself into our realm. They, together bring us to the knowledge of the one GOD and they are united in what GOD wants to happen. There is ONE GOD and One God and many gods. There is perfect unity between the ONE GOD and the One God and we can follow and worship both because of the ONE GOD's desire.
So, I think we differ in that you do not consider the Son to be any different than a “god” or maybe you don't even think that He is that.
As far as believers partaking of His nature, I am not sure what that is going to entail and I suggest that we can't really know that yet until it happens. I don't think I will ever be equal to the Father or the Son for sure so please don't think that. Will I actually be given a divine nature or will I just enjoy being around the divine nature, I am not sure. I don't let that bother me, what will be…will be.
As far as the “word” in John 1:1 being a characteristic of GOD, I don't agree. I think that you are complicating it. I think the word is simply that which was spoken of in the beginning, in fact the very first word spoken of in the beginning, and that which it represents, i.e. “Let there be Light.” The Light represents the actual offspring of GOD who GOD made the creation from then on through. IMO
I know that I have written alot to digest. I pray that you read with your heart. These are my understandings and how I have come to reconcile scripture. You have different understandings. We are both from clay and the best we can do is pray for understanding and the guidance of the very Spirit of GOD. I don't believe that I would have developed this understanding apart for HIM.
I wish you the best,
LUQuote (SEEKING @ April 01 2009,10:11) I believe I have asked this in the past, perhaps not of you,
with no concrete YES/NO answer; Is belief or non-belief in the trinitarian doctrine a matter of salvation?
if it was the bible would have said so…plain and simpleQuote (dirtyknections @ April 02 2009,06:27) Quote (SEEKING @ April 01 2009,10:11) I believe I have asked this in the past, perhaps not of you,
with no concrete YES/NO answer; Is belief or non-belief in the trinitarian doctrine a matter of salvation?
if it was the bible would have said so…plain and simple
Agreed! So then it is just one of the many points of divisiveness created by man for his pleasure to create division in the body of Christ ie. footwashing, Lord's supper,
Eschatology, tongues, etc.Interesting, the one to whom I posed the question has not goven a yes/no response.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Blessings,
Seeking
WJ,
Is it not better to know God than to try to define Him through weak theology.
Knowing Him would clear up many of your misconceptions.Quote What you say and what you did are two different things. You give me “One” scripture and claim that you answered the question, Mat 17:23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
“Raised” is written in the “passive” voice. The subject, Jesus,
is acted upon. He does not do the acting.Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle–not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Yet ANOTHER thing the Father did alone
Is it reading or counting capacity that eludes you? I read and count fourteen scriptures.
Quote Case and point. You think your list of scriptures negates the others that say Jesus raised himself Again, you say I posted one and then include my
list. I fear this illustrates your ability to honor what is written in the word also.WJ writes –
Three things to note here…
1. Jesus answered a request for a sign
2. Jesus plainly said I will raise up my body
3. The disciples believed the SCRIPTURE and the WORD Jesus spoke.
seeking notes the disciples wrote on the subject –Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
“Raised” is written in the “passive” voice. The subject, Jesus,
is acted upon. He does not do the acting.Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness
Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle–not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
The disciples state, again and again that GOD raised Jesus.
4..”Raised” is written in the “passive” voice. The subject, Jesus, is acting upon himself. He is doing the acting.
Here you modify common knowledge of the passive voice in the Greek. Correction, you don't modify, you completely reverse consistent with your interpretation and application of scripture.
PASSIVE IN THE GREEK MEANS THE SUBJECT WAS ACTED
UPON GOD ACTED UPON JESUS AND RAISED HIM.I asked “thinker” and I ask you, If I do not view the trinity as you do, is it a matter of salvation? Neither do I believe you must hold a non-trinitarian position to be saved. With that I conclude my participation in the discussion convinced we are caught up in the mincing of words.
Blessings to you in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote “Thinker” admits it is from “necessary inference” which, though a valid
method of interpretation, is the least preferred. Can you at least admit to that since the words, “I don't have scripture”
apparently can not flow from your lips! Preferred methods of interpretation would be WRITTEN WORD the APPROVED EXAMPLE finally NECESSARY INFERENCE.WJ replied:
Quote But we do have scripture which you and others ignore and apply your own inference to. Pot meets kettle!
To All,
Let Seeking and his non-trinitarian friends prove their immature view of the word “one” from these passages from Scripture:Quote The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive their authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of ONE mind, and they will give their authority to the beast (Rev. 17:12-13) Okay, so the ten kings are one mind. This is undisputable. They are “ten” yet “one.”
Paul said of the man and the woman
Quote The two shall be ONE flesh Psalm 23 says that YHWH is the Shepherd. Jesus said to the Jews,
Quote I am the good Shepherd Ergo….
Discoursing with non-trinitarians is like speaking to children. The word “one” to children is a cardinal number. If a dad is playing with his child and says to the child: Bring me “one” block from your toy box, the child will bring one block and not two or three.
But when the child grows up he or she necessarily learns to expand his view of the word “one.” He learns that many may exist as one kind or that many members may comprise one entity
Quote For as the body is ONE and has MANY members….(1 Cor. 12:12). So what went wrong in the upbringing of non-trinitarians? Why is it that they still think like children? Did their parents teach them the basics of language when they were growing up? One must wonder.
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote PASSIVE IN THE GREEK MEANS THE SUBJECT WAS ACTED
UPON GOD ACTED UPON JESUS AND RAISED HIM.To All,
Our brother Seeking is again pitting Scripture against Scripture. Jesus said,Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up….He was speaking of the temple of His body.(John 2:19-21) Uh, guess what brother…Jesus is NOT being acted upon in this statement. The verb is in the ACTIVE VOICE. Jesus is acting upon His dead body, “I will raise it up.”
Seeking's treatment of the Scriptures is just another example of the immature way that is indicative of non-trinitarians. Seeking uses select Scriptures which he likes. But the statements he doesn't like he ignores. And it is apparent that his parents did not teach him that a half truth is a falsehood.
It is true that the Father raised Jesus up from the dead. But it is aalso true that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. BOTH STATEMENTS ARE TRUE. It is becoming apparent that Seeking's parents did not teach him that a half truth is a falsehood. In a court of law one must swear to tell the WHOLE truth. Half truths are perjury!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 02 2009,19:54) Seeking said: Quote PASSIVE IN THE GREEK MEANS THE SUBJECT WAS ACTED
UPON GOD ACTED UPON JESUS AND RAISED HIM.To All,
Our brother Seeking is again pitting Scripture against Scripture. Jesus said,Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up….He was speaking of the temple of His body.(John 2:19-21) Uh, guess what brother…Jesus is NOT being acted upon in this statement. The verb is in the ACTIVE VOICE. Jesus is acting upon His dead body, “I will raise it up.”
Seeking's treatment of the Scriptures is just another example of the immature way that is indicative of non-trinitarians. Seeking uses select Scriptures which he likes. But the statements he doesn't like he ignores. And it is apparent that his parents did not teach him that a half truth is a falsehood.
It is true that the Father raised Jesus up from the dead. But it is aalso true that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. BOTH STATEMENTS ARE TRUE. It is becoming apparent that Seeking's parents did not teach him that a half truth is a falsehood. In a court of law one must swear to tell the WHOLE truth. Half truths are perjury!
thinker
Thinker,
I know that is confusing with the two saying that they each will raise up Christ from the dead but I have a simple explanation.What did the angel say when the women came to the tomb early this first day of the week after Jesus was crucified?
Matt 28:5-65 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye; for I know that ye seek Jesus, who hath been crucified.
6 He is not here; for he is risen, even as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
ASVThat was the Father's raising Him.
This is Christ raising Himself:
John 20:1717 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
ASVI think that explains the confusion.
Blessings, LU
WorshippingJesus,April wrote:[/quote]
WJ states –Quote Scriptures claim Jesus and the Spirit are God, yet you claim they don’t exist! This same ignorant question was posed before and answered as follows – (WJs first time to make the statement)
WJ states earlier
Quote Now show me one scripture that specifically says the three spoken of above does not exist!!! There are many scriptures that speak of the three. Now show me scripturally where they are not God and I can show you scripturally where they are God. Seeking replies on Mar.31, 2009
Quote 1) Of course the three exist, SEPERATELY. What kind of request is that? 2) They are not God because that would add up to three
gods. There is only one. Here is just one passage –Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call– one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Yet TODAY WJ makes this assertion and accusation –
Quote ]Scriptures claim Jesus and the Spirit are God, yet you claim they don’t exist! Again WJ, you either have a reading comprehension challenge, infer falsely believing others will accept what you say, distort truth, or I don't know what. This is yet another reason I will not enter into further discussions with you. You state you don't get much encouragement because of your trinitarian stand. For me, it is your tactics that do not invite encouragement.
Quote But you assume that Eph 4:4-6 means that the Father only is God It STATES, ]”there is one God and Father”.
You assume it means multiple Gods. How I don't know.
It states further, about the ONE GODof all, who is over all and through all and in all.Quote If so then you must be true to the rest of the scripture that claims that the “ONE” Spirit, One Lord, One Body, One Baptism are not plural. There is “one God” and Father (Eph.4:6)
There is “one body” the church
There is “one Lord” Jesus
There is “one Spirit” poured out (Acts 2:16-17)
There is “one baptism” into the name of Jesus (Acts 19:5Seeking
Seeking…….Amen Brother , you have correctly stated the point, Jesus did (NOT) raise HIMSELF, that is if He were (TRULY DEAD) as He himself said He was and Many Scriptures also say He was (DEAD) And dead people don't Raise themselves. WJ doesn't realize that it was the Father Speaking (first Person) through Jesus, when He said “Destroy this (TEMPLE) and I, (The FATHER) Shall raise it up in three days”. God considers us temples He can dwell in through His Spirit. Brother
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………..gene
Quote (SEEKING @ April 03 2009,12:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2009,08:52)
WJ states –Quote Scriptures claim Jesus and the Spirit are God, yet you claim they don’t exist!
This same ignorant question was posed before and answered as follows – (WJs first time to make the statement)WJ states earlier
Quote Now show me one scripture that specifically says the three spoken of above does not exist!!! There are many scriptures that speak of the three. Now show me scripturally where they are not God and I can show you scripturally where they are God.
Seeking replies on Mar.31, 2009Quote 1) Of course the three exist, SEPERATELY. What kind of request is that? 2) They are not God because that would add up to three
gods. There is only one. Here is just one passage –Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call– one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Yet TODAY WJ makes this assertion and accusation –Quote ]Scriptures claim Jesus and the Spirit are God, yet you claim they don’t exist! Again WJ, you either have a reading comprehension challenge, infer falsely believing others will accept what you say, distort truth, or I don't know what. This is yet another reason I will not enter into further discussions with you. You state you don't get much encouragement because of your trinitarian stand. For me, it is your tactics that do not invite encouragement.
Quote But you assume that Eph 4:4-6 means that the Father only is God It STATES, ]”there is one God and Father”.
You assume it means multiple Gods. How I don't know.
It states further, about the ONE GODof all, who is over all and through all and in all.Quote If so then you must be true to the rest of the scripture that claims that the “ONE” Spirit, One Lord, One Body, One Baptism are not plural. There is “one God” and Father (Eph.4:6)
There is “one body” the church
There is “one Lord” Jesus
There is “one Spirit” poured out (Acts 2:16-17)
There is “one baptism” into the name of Jesus (Acts 19:5Seeking
Hi SEEKINGMy statement in context was referring to scriptures which you say do not exist.
To me it seems that for you to comprehend what I say I have to be more careful with my words, for if not I suppose you will resort to patronizing and a mean Spirit and accusing me falsely.
You should look at context and the dates and times of the quotes before you throw stones.
You said…
Quote (SEEKING @ April 01 2009,08:44)
The onus does not lie with the individual to prove what does not exist.
Then this is what I said in response…Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2009,03:52) Scriptures claim Jesus and the Spirit are God, yet you claim they don’t exist!
Look closely at the post and you will see the subject of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as three have not come up yet.My response was that you are denying the scriptures that claim Jesus and the Spirit are God.
Then I quoted myself from my previous quote….
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2009,12:04)
Now show me one scripture that specifically says the three spoken of above does not exist!!! There are many scriptures that speak of the three. Now show me scripturally where they are not God and I can show you scripturally where they are God.
And your response was…Quote (SEEKING @ April 01 2009,08:44)
1) Of course the three exist, SEPERATELY. What kind of request is that?I don't know if it is because you cannot comprehend the conversation or if you are just being dishonest.
I noticed you did that in your previous post which I will address.
BTW this is what happens when you botch up the post like you did my last one. You cut out the first half and then responded to parts of it later. So who is being elusive here?
Blessings
WJ
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