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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,14:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Nick,
Is the author to the Hebrews just giving us his “intellectual insights” Nick? Hebrews says that Christ was begotten AFTER he purged our sins. In John 12 he rode into Jerusalem as the King of Israel. Yet he did not actually inherit the throne yet. Acts 2 and 13 is VERY CLEAR that Jesus did not assume his kingly office UNTIL he was exalted at God's right hand. Will you dispute this too?Will you adopt Kathi's explanation that Jesus was begotten twice? If you do then why not say that Jesus became the King of Israel twice.
NO! Jesus was NOT installed as the King of Israel UNTIL he was exalted to God's right hand. Think apprentice Nick. In the days of his flesh Jesus was God's apprentice Son so to speak. Just as an apprentice CEO must finish the course before he is officially named so it was with Jesus. The Scriptures speak unambiguously about this. The Scriptures say that He was required to learn obedience, be made perfect and consequently inherit the titles “begotten” and “high priest” (Heb. 5:5-10).
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Is that the only time God delared that? Or to you propose to bind us to your limited intellect? We should not prefer your intellect over scripture!Thinker……….You are so right, on what you posted brother, now if you would only continue and believe Jesus never preexisted before his berth other then in the plan of GOD, brother you would be totally on brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (SEEKING @ May 01 2009,02:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Is that the only time God delared that? Or to you propose to bind us to your limited intellect? We should not prefer your intellect over scripture!
Seeking………Amen to that brother.peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Gen I was not going to say anything no more, but it killes me to see how you make a mockery out of things. Why is it so hard for you to think what Scriptures says in Col. 1″15-17 and Rev. 3:14 ans Proverbs 8:22.
IreneQuote (Gene @ May 01 2009,02:59) Thinker……….You are so right, on what you posted brother, now if you would only continue and believe Jesus never preexisted before his berth other then in the plan of GOD, brother you would be totally on brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Gene,
I believe that the eternal Word became the Son of God in time. How else do you explain John 1:3:Quote All things came into being through him , and without him not one thing came into being that has come into being. John is NOT referring to the Word as an “impersonal power” as you say. He said “HIM” which is personal. He said that “not one thing” came into being without “HIM.”
So I will turn the tables on you with a question: How could John say that not one thing came into being without the Word if the Word did not pre-exist? It is therefore evident that the expressions “Word” and “Son of God” are NOT equal.
By equating the two terms is where non-trinitarians err.
thinker
Irene……Sister, you and others have (yet) to show me, any reason for GOd to Kill a son reberth Him and Kill Him again. As would to have had to happen if preexistence is true, whay perpose ould thar Show us, If GOd took a perfect Person and introduced Him into the world and He walked perfectly, would that show you or me anything (NO), but if He made a second ADAM exactly like us in every way without any pryor knowledge and perfected Him (because he was not already perfect) and Raised Him from the Dead, a man exactly as one of us without any advantage over us in any way except GOd was with him, and delivered Him from sin and death, Now that would really be a perfect witness and proof to us and all of man kind of the salvation of GOD. Can't you see the Purpose and reason for Jesus the MAN, HE WAS AND IS ONE OF US IN EVERY WAY without exception or differences of any kind. A man GOD was with from His Berth a man GOD (PERFECTED) a Man who redeemed MAN> Remember He LEARNED OBEDIENCE , Why is that if he already was obedient. Come out of all the MYSTERY Teachings not just part of them. I believe GOD does (NOTHING) without reason and purpose, sis. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg and yours sis……………………..gene
Gene,
You seem to assume that a person has to die to be transfigured from one body to the next. On the Mount of Transfiguration we read that Jesus's body changed but there was no death for that to happen. I think that is where you are hung up. I don't believe that the pre-existent Son had to die to change bodies.
Bless you,
KathiQuote (SEEKING @ May 01 2009,02:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Is that the only time God delared that? Or to you propose to bind us to your limited intellect? We should not prefer your intellect over scripture!
LOL!
“Limited intellect”
thinker
Quote (SEEKING @ May 01 2009,02:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Is that the only time God delared that? Or to you propose to bind us to your limited intellect? We should not prefer your intellect over scripture!
Hi S,
Interesting approach.The point I make is that the first time that God declares Jesus to be the Son who was promised to be coming in Psalm2 is at the river Jordan.
God makes several similar statements later on to confirm this announcement but none before this.
It would seem helpful to take note of this timing.
Hi TT,
You say
“Hebrews says that Christ was begotten AFTER he purged our sins.”Does it?
Or are you claiming the order of the words being written must dictate the timing?Quote (Gene @ May 01 2009,03:55) Irene……Sister, you and others have (yet) to show me, any reason for GOd to Kill a son reberth Him and Kill Him again. As would to have had to happen if preexistence is true, whay perpose ould thar Show us, If GOd took a perfect Person and introduced Him into the world and He walked perfectly, would that show you or me anything (NO), but if He made a second ADAM exactly like us in every way without any pryor knowledge and perfected Him (because he was not already perfect) and Raised Him from the Dead, a man exactly as one of us without any advantage over us in any way except GOd was with him, and delivered Him from sin and death, Now that would really be a perfect witness and proof to us and all of man kind of the salvation of GOD. Can't you see the Purpose and reason for Jesus the MAN, HE WAS AND IS ONE OF US IN EVERY WAY without exception or differences of any kind. A man GOD was with from His Berth a man GOD (PERFECTED) a Man who redeemed MAN> Remember He LEARNED OBEDIENCE , Why is that if he already was obedient. Come out of all the MYSTERY Teachings not just part of them. I believe GOD does (NOTHING) without reason and purpose, sis. IMO peace and love to you and Georg and yours sis……………………..gene
Gene,
You are not your own counselor. God is your counselor. And your counselor said that you needed a high priest that was without weaknessQuote For such a high priest is fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens….For the law appoints men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7;26-28) You may as well go back to the old covenant law when priests were weak exactly like us.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,11:45) Hi TT,
You say
“Hebrews says that Christ was begotten AFTER he purged our sins.”Does it?
Or are you claiming the order of the words being written must dictate the timing?
Huh?
thinker
Hi TT,
Hebrews 1 is proving the prophecy by quoting Ps2 and not dictating the timing of the begattal.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2009,06:53) Hi TT,
Hebrews 1 is proving the prophecy by quoting Ps2 and not dictating the timing of the begattal.
What?That is a stretch.
The authors purpose seems to be to display that Jesus is superior in authority to the angels as he is comparing the two. His reasoning his not straight forward which confuses many people. He was not attempting to instruct us as what time Jesus was fathered by God.
You should find out what being fathered by God actually means and then figure out when that event happened. It was certainly not when Jesus took the throne of David.
Hi KW,
Has Jesus already taken the throne of David?
He is the king on the donkey but assumes the throne on his return surely?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,16:43) Quote (SEEKING @ May 01 2009,02:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:23) Hi S,
Why should we prefer the intellectual insights of men when God said at the Jordan
THIS IS MY SON
?
Is that the only time God delared that? Or to you propose to bind us to your limited intellect? We should not prefer your intellect over scripture!
Hi S,
Interesting approach.The point I make is that the first time that God declares Jesus to be the Son who was promised to be coming in Psalm2 is at the river Jordan.
God makes several similar statements later on to confirm this announcement but none before this.
It would seem helpful to take note of this timing.
Your approach carries no interest at all.If you do not care to entertain all I have said on the matter,
your reiteration of what I have already conceded to regarding the physical birth is quite redundant.I have also addressed a hope that extends to each of us as a result of Jesus being the “firstborn” from the dead. We too will resurrect to newness of life.
Your “first time” point of delaration is something I have never denied. If you had read with interest you would have seen that I mentioned a “”delaration” and a “consumation.”
AT any rate, digesting your suggestion of, ” It would seem helpful to take note of this timing” would be good for you to practice when addressing what others have said, IMO.
Hi S,
You say
“If so I believe you would know my view is one of the Physical birth you mention as well as Jesus being the “firstborn” from the dead which the “TODAY” referenced speaks of.”WE do hope in the resurrection following the firstborn.
If TODAY meant the resurrection then God would not have called him a son at the Jordan would He?Quote (SEEKING @ April 30 2009,10:52) Quote (thethinker @ April 29 2009,14:05) Nick,
I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.Quote “TODAY I have become your father (NIV) When God said to Jesus “TODAY I have become your father” when did this happen?
thinker
On at least one other occassion, “TODAY”(equallyrendered “on this day”) Has been identified as follows –The words, This day have I begotten thee, must refer either to his incarnation, when he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit; or to his resurrection from the dead, when God, by this sovereign display of his almighty energy, declared him to be his Son, vindicated his innocence, and also the purity and innocence of the blessed virgin, who was the mother of this son, and who declared him to be produced in her womb by the power of God. The resurrection of Christ, therefore, to which the words most properly refer, not only gave the fullest proof that he was an innocent and righteous man, but also that he had accomplished the purpose for which he died, and that his conception was miraculous, and his mother a pure and unspotted virgin.
Adam Clarke CommentaryThis day. 1. Acts 13:33″, where this passage is applied to the resurrection of Christ from the dead;–proving that the phrase “this day” does not refer to the doctrine of eternal generation, but to the resurrection of the Redeemer–“the FIRST-BEGOTTEN of the dead,” Revelation 1:6. Thus Theodoret says of the phrase “this day”–” It does not express his eternal generation, but that which is connected with time.” The argument of the apostle here does not turn on the time when this was said, but on the fact that this was said to him, and not to any one of the angels; and this argument will have equal force, whether the phrase be understood as referring to the fact of his resurrection, or to his previous existence.
Barne's Notes on the New TestamentToday I have begotten You refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead. At that time He fully assumed His role as our great High Priest, having been perfected (Hebrews 5:9).
David Guzik's Commentaries on the BibleThe day was the day of the resurrection in which the Bible states,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
The resurrection is the day of “declaration”
Rom 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
So, “TODAY” a day of “declaration” of the “consumation” that had taken place prior.
I wonder, is it an explanation of “TODAY” that is sought or will all explanations in disagreement with the supposition be rejected and answered with a repeat of, “I asked you to tell me when “TODAY” occurred.”
Seeking
Hi S,
Do you really believe these theologians?Is begettal to you a gradual process that must reach perfection before is is true?
God does not need time.
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