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Thinker, brother i really don't see it that way , There are so many scriptures that show that GOD is ONE and ONLY, a ONE, not two or three persons or beings. BUT i do believe the (ONE) GOD can cohabit in US as He did JESUS via HIS spirit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours brother………………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2009,13:56) Hi TT,
Fantasy rules OK?
When is the movie coming out?
Hey Nick,
I have to give you credit this time for making me laugh. “When is the movie coming out” is quite funny.
Thanks bro.Please give us YOUR explanation. For the Scriptures say that God became “father” at the moment Jesus became “son.” This must certainly make sense to you. When my first child was born I was congratulated for becoming a father.
I did not become a “father” UNTIL I begat. When was Jesus begotten Nick? The point in time that Jesus was begotten is the point in time when God became his “father.” God said,
Quote You are my Son: TODAY I have become your Father (Heb. 1:5, NIV) I marvel that you think that fathers exist as such BEFORE they beget. Just as Jesus was not always a son so God was not always a father. God became a father in time: “TODAY I have become your father.”
If God is the ETERNAL Father then Jesus is the ETERNAL Son. If Jesus was begotten in time then God became a “father” in time. It's that simple Nick! Do you bother to think things through? Or are you bound by tradition?thinker
Hi Keith,
You wrote:Quote
Before time is before the beginning! If Jesus was before the beginning then he is before time and therefore he is eternal. In fact that makes him the creator of time, space and matter.When I say that the Son had His beginning before time I mean that the Son had His beginning before day one was even declared. The Light that came by the declaration of “Let there be Light” was technically before day one was declared, yet that light had a beginning and didn't exist in eternity past. So your reasoning that whatever existed before time began was eternal would place the formless and void earth as eternal as well as the light and the heavens since they existed before day one was declared.
Quote The earth and the Heavens were already there before the light. “Let there be light” and Jesus came forth? I agree that the GOD began the creation of the heavens and the earth before the Light was called forth. I think that they were still in the process of creation till they were given the name heaven and earth. Realize this that if the heaven that is referred to in day two wasn't even called heaven till day two, it was not considered to be heaven until after Light came forth on day one. Therefore the “heavens” in Gen 1:1 only BEGAN to be created and were not completed at that time since heaven of day two is one of the “heavens.” Also, earth was not called “earth” until day three. Therefore the earth in Gen 1:1 was only beginning to be created and not done being created.
Gen 1:1-10
GENESIS The Creation 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
(This is the beginning of the creation of the realm of heaven and the place earth, not the completion of the creation)2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
NASUAfter the heaven and the earth and the sea were established and got their name, GOD began to fill them with vegetation, sun, moon and stars, fish, animals and man.
Therefore, then if the Light is the Son of GOD as I suggest, He was there during the time when the heavens and earth were created and could have been used to lay the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens. He could have established heavens in regards to the atmosphere and the area that contains the sun, moon and stars.
Heb 1:10
10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU
Now regarding the term “came into being” as in this verse:
John 1:3
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
NASUThe word “made” is from Strong's word number 1096 and can have the sense of being fulfilled or completely made.
NT:1096
gi/nomai
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):KJV – arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
As an illustration to this I will share a recent experience of mine.
A couple of months ago I decided to learn how to design a website.
Soon after I discussed that with someone from church that designs websites on the side, he suggested me to someone he knew that needed a simple website done.
I started experimenting designing a site through an appication on the web called Joomla.
I found that to be ok but thought there could be an easier way through another application called Go Daddy Websitetonight builder.
When I went through GoDaddy I was able to put together the website within a couple of days because of the ease of their program and the assistance of telephone support.
My point here is that I began creating the website apart from GoDaddy but made it through GoDaddy to the point of completion and publishing. I can't help to say this so forgive me ahead of time but…GOD the Father created the heavens and the earth through GoSonny:pAnd on that note I better take a break,
Love,
KathiQuote (thethinker @ April 29 2009,04:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2009,13:56) Hi TT,
Fantasy rules OK?
When is the movie coming out?
Hey Nick,
I have to give you credit this time for making me laugh. “When is the movie coming out” is quite funny. Thanks bro.Please give us YOUR explanation. For the Scriptures say that God became “father” at the moment Jesus became “son.” This must certainly make sense to you. When my first child was born I was congratulated for becoming a father.
I did not become a “father” UNTIL I begat. When was Jesus begotten Nick? The point in time that Jesus was begotten is the point in time when God became his “father.” God said,
Quote You are my Son: TODAY I have become your Father (Heb. 1:5, NIV) I marvel that you think that fathers exist as such BEFORE they beget. Just as Jesus was not always a son so God was not always a father. God became a father in time: “TODAY I have become your father.”
If God is the ETERNAL Father then Jesus is the ETERNAL Son. If Jesus was begotten in time then God became a “father” in time. It's that simple Nick! Do you bother to think things through? Or are you bound by tradition?thinker
Hi TT,
Yes God has a son.
Did you not exist before your son was born?Nick said:
Quote Hi TT,
Yes God has a son.
Did you not exist before your son was born?Nick,
Jesus was the Son of God by decree (Ps. 2:7; Rom. 1:1-3). He was NOT born the Son of God. He became obedient til death and EARNED the title. Jesus was the son of God by title.Your father did not become a father to you by your own acts. But God became a Father to Jesus by the deeds that Jesus Himself did. So who deserves the cigar? Jesus' name as “Son” to God is His REWARD for all that He did and He received much more than a cigar for it. He received YOU as His inheritance and yet you won't honor Him.
“Kiss (honor) the Son lest He be angry with you and you perish” (Ps. 2:12).
thinker
Hi TT,
Becoming a son was not a prize for any of his behaviours.
He was reborn from above of God's Spirit just as we must be.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,09:28) Hi TT,
Becoming a son was not a prize for any of his behaviours.
He was reborn from above of God's Spirit just as we must be.
What!Quote AFTER making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels as the name he inherited is so much better than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son, TODAY I have begotten you”? (Heb. 1:3-5 ESV)
How can you make such a ridiculous statement that sonship was not a prize for Jesus? What freakin “bible” are you reading?
again,
Quote ….He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even the death on a cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and has GIVEN him a name that is ABOVE EVERY NAME… that at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW. (Philippians 2:8-10, ESV). Jesus EARNED his name Nick! He was GIVEN (awarded) the name “Son of God.”
“Kiss [honor] the Son lest he be angry with you and you perish” (Psalm 2:12).
thinker
Hi TT,
Remember God announced that Jesus was His son way back at the Jordan before he had done any works of power.You assume the name of SON is the one referred to in Phil2?
Is presumption of faith?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,11:22) Hi TT,
Remember God announced that Jesus was His son way back at the Jordan before he had done any works of power.You assume the name of SON is the one referred to in Phil2?
Is presumption of faith?
Nick,
I did not assume the name Son in Hebrews one. It CLEARLY says in that text that Jesus was “begotten” AFTER He had purged our sins. I gave the Hebrews one passage with the Philippians 2 passage. Psalms 2 and Romans 1 say that Christ was the Son of God by decreeQuote I will declare the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son, today I have begotten You”
,
and,
Quote …decreed to be the Son of God with power… Both these passages clearly say that Jesus became the Son of God by the decree of God and NOT by being born or being created. He became the Son of God by the word which came out of God's mouth. He was God's Son by oath and Jesus fulfilled that decree or oath by His works. Thus God “begat” him.
When God announced that Jesus was His Son at the Jordan He was simply repeating the decree. It still had to be fulfilled and it was fulfilled by the works Jesus did. It's CLEAR Nick. It CLEARLY says that he was begotten AFTER Jesus purged our sins. So your view that a father pre-exists a son cannot apply for God became Christ's “father” by the works of Christ Himself. Yours and my father did not become fathers by something we did.
Jesus was the son of God by decree Nick and that decree was NOT fulfilled by the Father but by Jesus HIMSELF.
“Kiss (honor) the Son lest he be angry with you and you perish.”
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:15) Hi TT,
I prefer the statements of God.
Your theories do not hold water.
Nick,
You can't answer the statements of God I have given. You won't let go of your long held beliefs. Christ was begotten at a point in time called “TODAY.” When When did “TODAY” occur? Please answer Nick. And when was the last time you seen a human son by his deeds make a man a father?thinker
Thinker ……I agree Jesus was begotten on the day GOD said He was, but Why then do you believe He preexisted as a GOD before this event then Brother? When the LORD GOD said He created everything (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) So how could there have been another GOD and LORD told the Israel you shall have (NO) other GOD besides ME. and Jesus Said, HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD (OUR) GOD , IS ONE LORD. And he also said in prayer FATHER THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. The word our includes himself, and only means no other right brother? IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene said:
Quote I agree Jesus was begotten on the day GOD said He was, but Why then do you believe He preexisted as a GOD before this event then Brother? Brother Gene,
I am glad that you see that Jesus was begotten as God's Son on the day God said he was. Jesus was begotten on the day of his exaltation. This proves that he pre-existed before he became God's Son. This means that non-trinitarians cannot prove their Christology from the word “Son.” They must find another line of reasoning.However, your question to me is valid. I believe that Jesus existed as God before he was begotten because he was the ETERNAL Word made flesh. The expressions “Word” and “Son of God” in reference to Jesus are NOT equal. Jesus was the Word from all eternity. He came into the world as flesh to become the Son of God, that is, the covenantal head of God's family. It was required of him to EARN his position as covenantal head or “firstborn” or “begotten Son.”
The title “Son of God” in reference to Jesus simply means that he is the covenantal head of God's family. The cultures in ancient times dictated that the firstborn Son be the head. So God replied by sending His bosom companion the Word into the world to become the head (Son).
thinker
Let me give my two cents here. I agree with you thinker that Jesus preexisted before the world was. However I do not agree that He existed from all eternity.
John 1:1 tells us that He was the word,but in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. And by the power of the Father He created all.
Also in Co. 1:15 It tells us that He was the image of the invisible God,the firstborn over all creation.Proverbs 8:22 ” The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before his works of old. From the beginning before there was no earth.” etc. That shows that He was created, not there from all eternity.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi TT,
So when God revealed His Son at the Jordan and told men to listen to him they should not do so?Quote (thethinker @ April 29 2009,20:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,19:15) Hi TT,
I prefer the statements of God.
Your theories do not hold water.
Nick,
You can't answer the statements of God I have given. You won't let go of your long held beliefs. Christ was begotten at a point in time called “TODAY.” When When did “TODAY” occur? Please answer Nick. And when was the last time you seen a human son by his deeds make a man a father?thinker
Hi TT,
No man can make anyone his father.Sons come from fathers and the moment God shared His Spirit with Jesus at the Jordan and they became one, Jesus was declared by God to be His son.
We should rather believe God.
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