- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Cindy @ April 19 2009,19:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2009,16:48) Quote For him, Jesus? he created all things by the power, or through the power, of his Father. Jesus admitted himself, “without the Father I can do nothing.” Because Jesus would die in order to rescue his creation, he would inherit it all, become King of kings.
Cindy, where does Jesus say “without the Father I can do nothing”?
Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Georg
This does not read “without the Father I can do nothing”, that's a paraphrase based on an eroneous interpretation of the text.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2009,19:42) Quote (Cindy @ April 19 2009,19:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2009,16:48) Quote For him, Jesus? he created all things by the power, or through the power, of his Father. Jesus admitted himself, “without the Father I can do nothing.” Because Jesus would die in order to rescue his creation, he would inherit it all, become King of kings.
Cindy, where does Jesus say “without the Father I can do nothing”?
Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Georg
This does not read “without the Father I can do nothing”, that's a paraphrase based on an eroneous interpretation of the text.
Are you suggesting the meaning is not the same?Georg
Georg,
In John 5:19 Jesus actually made a tacit claim to equality with God, The Father, by stating that He can only do that which God does, and cannot do things that are contrary to that which God does. Look at the context of this passage Georg. He then goes on to say that He will raise the dead (v21, a sole prerogative of God), is to judge mankind (v22, another one) and that everyone will honour him exactly as they honour the Father (v23). Quite clearly His utterance in v19 was not a self-effacing comment!The Son can do nothing of himself – Jesus, having stated the extent of his authority, proceeds here to show its “source and nature,” and to Proverbs to them that what he had said was true. The first explanation which he gives is in these words: “The Son” – whom he had just impliedly affirmed to be equal with God – did nothing “of himself;” that is, nothing without the appointment of the Father; nothing contrary to the Father, as he immediately explains it. When it is said that he can “do nothing” of himself, it is meant that such is the union subsisting between the Father and the Son that he can do nothing “independently” or separate from the Father. Such is the nature of this union that he can do nothing which has not the concurrence of the Father, and which he does not command. In all things he must, from the necessity of his nature, act in accordance with the nature and will of God. Such is the intimacy of the union, that the fact that “he” does anything is proof that it is by the concurring agency of God. There is no separate action – no separate existence; but, alike in being and in action, there is the most perfect oneness between him and the Father. Compare John 10:30; John 17:21.
Source: http://bibletools.org/index.c….sIs. 1:18 said:
Quote In John 5:19 Jesus actually made a tacit claim to equality with God, The Father, by stating that He can only do that which God does, and cannot do things that are contrary to that which God does. Look at the context of this passage Georg. He then goes on to say that He will raise the dead (v21, a sole prerogative of God), is to judge mankind (v22, another one) and that everyone will honour him exactly as they honour the Father (v23). Quite clearly His utterance in v19 was not a self-effacing comment! Is.1:18,
You are quite correct. In verse 19 Jesus was saying that He cannot act out of union with His Father. Yet He still possess His own sovereignty,Quote For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son quickens whom He will (5:21) If Jesus' statement in vs 19 was self-effacing then He contradicts Himself in vs 21.
thinker
thinker………he (cant) act out of union, and still has his own sovereignty? that is a contradiction of terms brother.
love and peace………………………..gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2009,19:58) Georg,
In John 5:19 Jesus actually made a tacit claim to equality with God, The Father, by stating that He can only do that which God does, and cannot do things that are contrary to that which God does. Look at the context of this passage Georg. He then goes on to say that He will raise the dead (v21, a sole prerogative of God), is to judge mankind (v22, another one) and that everyone will honour him exactly as they honour the Father (v23). Quite clearly His utterance in v19 was not a self-effacing comment!The Son can do nothing of himself – Jesus, having stated the extent of his authority, proceeds here to show its “source and nature,” and to Proverbs to them that what he had said was true. The first explanation which he gives is in these words: “The Son” – whom he had just impliedly affirmed to be equal with God – did nothing “of himself;” that is, nothing without the appointment of the Father; nothing contrary to the Father, as he immediately explains it. When it is said that he can “do nothing” of himself, it is meant that such is the union subsisting between the Father and the Son that he can do nothing “independently” or separate from the Father. Such is the nature of this union that he can do nothing which has not the concurrence of the Father, and which he does not command. In all things he must, from the necessity of his nature, act in accordance with the nature and will of God. Such is the intimacy of the union, that the fact that “he” does anything is proof that it is by the concurring agency of God. There is no separate action – no separate existence; but, alike in being and in action, there is the most perfect oneness between him and the Father. Compare John 10:30; John 17:21.
Source: http://bibletools.org/index.c….s
Hi Is 1.18,
Do you think what seems to you to be tacit claims of separate and personal deity are sufficient for his followers to teach a doctrine that is not plainly written?Is inference truth?
Can we go beyond the words of Jesus now?[2Jn]
Is he Lord of all those who teach in myriad ways beyond his words?
Quote (Gene @ April 19 2009,20:42) thinker………he (cant) act out of union, and still has his own sovereignty? that is a contradiction of terms brother. love and peace………………………..gene
Gene,
Was Jesus the King of Israel? If He was not sovereign then He cannot be a “king”. He said that He quickens whom HE WILL. It is not a contradiction.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2009,06:47) Hi TT,
Jesus is given sovereinty.
[Dan7]
Yes. And sovereignty is sovereignty no matter how you slice it. Is Jesus YOUR sovereign?thinker
Hi TT,
Yes I uphold his teachings and authority over all other men.
Do you or have theologians come between?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2009,08:45) Hi TT,
Yes I uphold his teachings and authority over all other men.
Do you or have theologians come between?
But is Jesus YOUR sovereign? You have admitted that God gave sovereignty to Jesus. Is Jesus YOUR sovereign Lord? This is not a trick question.thinker
Hi TT,
What is it about yes that confuses you?
My appointed Lord is Jesus.All authority has been given to him.
Lk7
6Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:7Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2009,08:55) Hi TT,
What is it about yes that confuses you?
My appointed Lord is Jesus.All authority has been given to him.
Lk7
6Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:7Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
8For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
9When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Nick said:Quote What is it about yes that confuses you?
My appointed Lord is Jesus.Nick,
Revelation 4 says that God is the Lord. Ephesians 4 says that there is only ONE Lord. So how can you say that Jesus is your Lord if there is only one Lord?Are you an incipient trinitarian after all?
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus is under God.
He is the mediator between us and His GodDo you not understand authority?
Then listen to the centurion who was not the commander of the roman armyHi TT,
If you are in Christ there should be no confusion about authority.1Cor8
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The only confusion arises whan carnal men make their god a binity or trinity but Jesus is the Son of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2009,09:20) Hi TT,
Jesus is under God.
He is the mediator between us and His GodDo you not understand authority?
Then listen to the centurion who was not the commander of the roman army
Nick,
When we trinitarians are called upon to defend our belief in a plural God we give answers that are straight and upright. However, when you are called upon to show how Christ can be Lord when there is only one Lord (God) you reply with a question.I asked you first. And the rules of debate require you to answer. If the trinitarian errs in his plural God idea then you are no better for you have more than one “Lord” yourself.
Who is YOUR “Lord” Nick? God or Jesus or both? If you say “both” then stop your nonsensical accusations against trinitarians.
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
