Proverbs 16:4 with Colossians 1:17

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2009,05:43)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2009,01:09) Hi Keith, Thanks for your thoughtful answer. You said: Quote It was by Jesus also that all things were made and without him nothing was made that was made. Since all things are infinite and include, time, space and matter, then that would mean to me that Jesus would have to be infinite. Do you think that it could be possible that the “all things” that were made could be limited to things that are “in” heaven, and “on” earth as this passage in Col. states: Col 1:15-18 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NASU Blessings, Kathi Hi kathi That is a good question. The Greek word for “heavens” or “heaven” is 'ouranos', it is a masculine noun which means… 1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it a) the universe, the world b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced c) the sidereal or starry heavens 2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings Paul not only says he made those things which are visible but also those things which are invisible. Unitarains somehow read into this the “New Creation”, but the word “New Creation” is not found in these verses. There are two times Paul mentions a “New Creature” or it can be translated “New Creation” and that was in 2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15. The Greek word in those scriptures is different from the word created in Col 1:16 However to be fair it is the same Greek word that Paul uses in Col 1:15 when it reads he is the “firtsborn of every creature”. The problem they have with this is the term “New Creation” is not there either. Kathi, you take this scripture from a preexistant standpoint meaning Jesus is the firstborn of the current creation, the Unitaraians take it as he is the firstborn of the “New creation”. I simply think that the truest interpretation of the text in its context is neither. The word firstborn here IMO and many other experts does not mean a birth but in fact Paul is drawing from a Hebrew term meaning preeminence. For in the same context he uses the term “firstborn from the dead”, and we know he was not the first one to arise from the dead but in fact had the preeminece over all those in the ressurection because it was because of him that anyone rose from the dead for he was the resurrection and the life and had power over death. Concerning the term “firstborn over the creation” the NET states… 28tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator). The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “over all creation.” See ExSyn 103-4. Source So back to your question, I think that the above trumps any idea that Paul was meaning that the “all things” were limited to just heaven and earth and in fact John 1:1-3 to me check mates the notion. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the “WORD WAS GOD”. The same was in the beginning with God. “ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND *WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE*”. John 1:1-3 Blessings WJ

Hi Kathi

As I was meditating on this something else was brought to light.

Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, “the firstborn of all creation“. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
NASU

“THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION“

If this means a literal birth then it would mean that Jesus is part of the family of creation being the firstborn of it.

The language of Verse 17 “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together” suggest Jesus did not have a literal birth before his coming in the flesh, but in fact has the preeminence over all.

John 1:3 supports this also because nothing was made or came into existence without him.

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick and Keith,
I'm reading along and will respond when I can concentrate on what you are saying. I am taking care of my nieces and nephew ages 3 1/2 to 7 for a few days so I am kinda caught up with them, they are great.
God bless and GOD bless,
Kathi

[epistemaniac]

the word “Firstborn” is a title of honor and preeminence, this MUST be the case, or the bible directly contradicts itself… here is why…

Genesis 48:14 (ESV) And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn).”

Here the bible clearly refers to Manasseh as being the firstborn… and on a biological level he was literally the first born…. but…. the bible also says
Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”

Now, since God cannot literally, on a biological level, give birth to a Son… it ought to be plainly, manifestly manifest that when the term “firstborn” is applied to Jesus, it is a title of honor. And this honor is attributed to the Son in obvious ways in passages like…
Romans 8:29 (ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
For Jesus to be “firstborn among many brothers” is not for him to be biologically the firstborn among Christian believers, but rather that His is a place of honor.

This place of position is explicitly qualified and defined in the following passage…
Colossians 1:15-18 (ESV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

Jesus' position as “firstborn” is, as Paul says, such that “in everything he might be preeminent”.

That is what the bible says anyways…

blessings,
ken

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 17 2009,02:20)

the word “Firstborn” is a title of honor and preeminence, this MUST be the case, or the bible directly contradicts itself… here is why… Genesis 48:14 (ESV) And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn).” Here the bible clearly refers to Manasseh as being the firstborn… and on a biological level he was literally the first born…. but…. the bible also says Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” Now, since God cannot literally, on a biological level, give birth to a Son… it ought to be plainly, manifestly manifest that when the term “firstborn” is applied to Jesus, it is a title of honor. And this honor is attributed to the Son in obvious ways in passages like… Romans 8:29 (ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” For Jesus to be “firstborn among many brothers” is not for him to be biologically the firstborn among Christian believers, but rather that His is a place of honor. This place of position is explicitly qualified and defined in the following passage… Colossians 1:15-18 (ESV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.” Jesus' position as “firstborn” is, as Paul says, such that “in everything he might be preeminent”. That is what the bible says anyways… blessings, ken

Hi Ken

Good point!

Blessings!

Keith

[Lightenup]

Hi Ken and Keith,

Ken you say:

Quote

Now, since God cannot literally, on a biological level, give birth to a Son…

I do not know if the term would be biological but I would not put GOD in a box and say that He couldn't give birth through Himself and produce a literal born offspring.  I see that as totally possible after all life comes from Him and He even gave life to dust why couldn't He reproduce, He invented it after all?

BTW, I certainly know that the term firstborn can have more than one meaning but remember, the term “firstborn” in regards to the sacrificial lamb in the Old Testament was not applied to any but the first out of the womb of the mother ewe.  There are plenty of references to the actual, literal, biological firstborns in scripture.  I would expect that the Son of God would have the fullest meaning of the word.  Possibly you can show me from scripture that GOD cannot reproduce one of His own kind before any other thing that had life.  In the mean time I am wondering if you can at least consider the idea as possible and if possible what would that perfect Son be like.  It is an interesting thing to ponder.  I imagine that the offspring would be full of grace and truth, holy, totally obedient to His Father, full of love for His Father and for creation, and always wanting to do the will of His Father.  Sounds a lot like Jesus.

I gotta run and put on my Aunt Kathi hat and tote some little ones off to the Creative Discovery Museum where they can learn about evolution and such …and no, I don't believe in evolution but the museums tend to promote it.

God bless,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2009,04:43)

I do not know if the term would be biological but I would not put GOD in a box and say that He couldn't give birth through Himself and produce a literal born offspring.  I see that as totally possible after all life comes from Him and He even gave life to dust why couldn't He reproduce, He invented it after all?

Hi Kathi

Ok, on that line of reasoning then would you put God in a box and say that he cannot completely reproduce himself or a Son equal to him in nature?

In other words why would God bring birth to a “half God” or something that is not exactly like him in every way, including his omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, his infinite nature?

Why can’t God bring birth to a being that is “equal” to himself, since every other reproductive creature can do this?

Since the scriptures say….

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3

And…

“Who, being in very nature God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:6

I am going with the scriptures. For I see no difference in the ontology of the Father and Jesus.

That coupled with the Monotheistic belief of the Hebrews that there is no “Other Theos” but one and all other “theos” is so-called “theos” and not theos at all. 1 Cor 8:4, 5

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2009,15:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2009,04:43) I do not know if the term would be biological but I would not put GOD in a box and say that He couldn't give birth through Himself and produce a literal born offspring.  I see that as totally possible after all life comes from Him and He even gave life to dust why couldn't He reproduce, He invented it after all? Hi Kathi Ok, on that line of reasoning then would you put God in a box and say that he cannot completely reproduce himself or a Son equal to him in nature? In other words why would God bring birth to a “half God” or something that is not exactly like him in every way, including his omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, his infinite nature? Why can’t God bring birth to a being that is “equal” to himself, since every other reproductive creature can do this? Since the scriptures say…. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3 And… “Who, being in very nature God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:6 I am going with the scriptures. For I see no difference in the ontology of the Father and Jesus. That coupled with the Monotheistic belief of the Hebrews that there is no “Other Theos” but one and all other “theos” is so-called “theos” and not theos at all. 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Blessings WJ

Hi Keith,
No, I wouldn't put GOD in a box at all and say He couldn't completely reproduce Himself. However, He could not possibly reproduce someone just like Himself that always existed…there lies a difference that cannot be duplicated. If that alone is the difference between the Father and the Son, then that is enough to make the Son not equal to the Father.

GOD begat God…GOD is the source of God, His Son. Obviously the Son therefore could not be the source of all. The Father of the Son is the source of all.

Therefore, if the Son is a literal Son born before time He can be everything like the Father that He can possibly be except He cannot be always existent and the source of all.

Thanks for your time Keith,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2009,15:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 17 2009,15:44) Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2009,04:43) I do not know if the term would be biological but I would not put GOD in a box and say that He couldn't give birth through Himself and produce a literal born offspring.  I see that as totally possible after all life comes from Him and He even gave life to dust why couldn't He reproduce, He invented it after all? Hi Kathi Ok, on that line of reasoning then would you put God in a box and say that he cannot completely reproduce himself or a Son equal to him in nature? In other words why would God bring birth to a “half God” or something that is not exactly like him in every way, including his omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence, his infinite nature? Why can’t God bring birth to a being that is “equal” to himself, since every other reproductive creature can do this? Since the scriptures say…. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3 And… “Who, being in very nature God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:6 I am going with the scriptures. For I see no difference in the ontology of the Father and Jesus. That coupled with the Monotheistic belief of the Hebrews that there is no “Other Theos” but one and all other “theos” is so-called “theos” and not theos at all. 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Blessings WJ Hi Keith, No, I wouldn't put GOD in a box at all and say He couldn't completely reproduce Himself.  However, He could not possibly reproduce someone just like Himself that always existed…there lies a difference that cannot be duplicated.  If that alone is the difference between the Father and the Son, then that is enough to make the Son not equal to the Father. GOD begat God…GOD is the source of God, His Son. Obviously the Son therefore could not be the source of all.  The Father of the Son is the source of all. Therefore, if the Son is a literal Son born before time He can be  everything like the Father that He can possibly be except He cannot be always existent and the source of all.   Thanks for your time Keith, Kathi

Hi Kathi

But that is the problem isn't it. We have no unambiguous scripture that shows Jesus had a beginning.

Yet we also cannot find in scripture any attribute that the Father has that Jesus doesn't, or else he wouldn't be…

…the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3

And…

“the image of the invisible God“, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15

Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2009,15:24)

Obviously the Son therefore could not be the source of all.  The Father of the Son is the source of all.

I disagree remember it was by or through Jesus that all things were made and “without him was not anything made that was made“. John 1:3

And…

He is before all things, and “in him all things hold together (or consist). Col 1:17

Therefore that makes the Father and Jesus the source of all things.

If he was not the source then it wasn't by or through him all things were made or came into existence.

I do not understand how any believer can say that Jesus is not the source when Jesus is everything here and more…

“He is our shield, our defender, our rock, our hiding place,

He is our provider, counselor, great shepherd, our friend, who is closer than a brother, our love, He is the Husbandman, He is the source of all blessing,

He restores, rescues, forgives and redeems.

He is our victor, the captain of hosts, He is our banner, and our standard, mighty in battle,

He is he king of kings and lord of lords,

Jesus is crowned with glory and honor, He is our savior, sanctifier, redeemer, merciful and faithful high priest,

He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the end, He was dead but now He is ALIVE forevermore and He is seated at the right hand of God (seated – it's finished)

He destroyed death, and led captivity captive

He is the great Apostle of our faith, He is the supreme sacrifice, the spotless and blameless lamb

He is our anchor, our strong tower, our shield, our defender, The ancient of days,

He is the forerunner, the firstborn among many brethren, He is the surety of a better testament and He comes from the unchangeable priesthood, He is able to save to the uttermost,

His presence doesn't cast any shadow because He is the light that lights the heavenly city. He is the light of the world. and the giver of our life.

He is the door, the way and the truth. He is the treasure, the pearl of great price, more precious than the finest gold,

He is the eternal intercessor and He is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, higher than the heavens, He makes His enemies His footstool and laughs at His adversaries.

He is the tree of life, He is consecrated for ever and makes us sanctified forever, by His precious blood.

He is the minister of the Sanctuary, He is the mediator the New covenant.

He is the high priest of GOOD THINGS to come, He's the Lion of Judah, and the New and living way.

He's the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the great shepherd of ALL THE SHEEP

HE IS THE HOLDER OF THEY KEYS, HE IS THE AMEN, HE IS THE FINAL WORD…

He is qualified to open the Book, He is the expression of the heart of the Father, His love has no limits, His grace has no measure, His power has no boundaries known unto men, out of His infinite riches, He gives and gives and gives again

He is our nearest Kinsman, and qualified to redeem us.

He is THE WORD MADE FLESH, the honey in the rock, He is high and lifted up He is the lily of the valley the bright and morning star, the fairest of 10,000.

He is more precious than gold, He's the glory and lifter of our heads. He is the righteous judge, He is a refuge for the oppressed. He doesn't forget the cry of the humble

He is our portion and our inheritance, His garments smell of sweet myrrh and His breath is as sweet apples. He is a very present help in trouble.

He hides us under the shadow His wings, and keeps us as the apple of His eye.

He is our high tower, He makes the hills shake, the mountains melt, the heavens bow.

He will light my candle because He is the light of life He is the branch, and the root of
Jesse.

HE IS THE GREAT WAVEMAKER FROM GALILEE

He makes the crooked paths straight and the rough places plain He split history, and divided the ages,

He is the greatest teacher the world has ever known, He is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost,

He preserves the faithful, He is the resurrection and life,

He spoke and framed the world, He makes our way perfect and makes our feet like hinds feet, He causes us to walk in high places.. He is able to comfort, guide and bless,

He turns our mourning into dancing and, girds us with gladness.

Let me tell you about His voice, His voice is powerful upon the waters, full of majesty, like thunder, it breaks the cedars, divides the flames, shakes the wilderness, makes the hinds to calve, discovers the forests, sets the mountains in their place, It stills the seas, His voice shook the earth, melts the hills.

His voice is as the sound of many waters, He spoke and calmed the storm, He spoke and gave life to the dead, brought healing to the sick, strength to the weak, and forgiveness to the sinner.

He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men, He brought a stream out of a rock, and fed the people in the wilderness, He fed 5000 with two loaves and three little fishes…He is infinite, eternal, glorious and full of majesty.. One day in His courts is better than a thousand, wouldn't you rather be a doorkeeper in His house than dwell in the tents of the world..?

He is the covenant keeper – keeping covenant with covenant breakers..

He is sweeter than all the flowers, He is the lover of our soul and the keeper of our hearts.

HE IS THE KING OF ALL KINGS AND ALL RULERS AND EVERY NATION WILL BOW TO HIM,

HIS NAME IS JESUS….”

Source

We do not serve two masters. There is One God, not one God and a little one for that would be in violation of the Hebrew Monotheistic faith, IMO.

Jesus doesn't get credit for much these days for being who he is. So many just want to treat him as a funnel that the Father works through. Believers just cast him aside as another brother who the Father uses. I can hear them saying, “excuse me brother Jesus” I just want to talk to the Father now.

Finally Jesus is our Husband and we are his Bride.

How it must break the Fathers heart to see his Sons very own Bride shun his Only Unique Son, and cast him aside as just another son of his.

Blessings WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 14 2009,10:56)

To my non-trinitarian friends here, Proverbs 16:4 says this: Quote YHWH has made all things for Himself Colossians 1:17 says: Quote All things were created by Him and for Him Please reconcile these statements with your non-trinitarian views. The verse in Proverbs says that all things were created for YHWH. But the verse in Colossians says that all things were created for Christ. Creation exists for who____? Fill in the blank! thinker

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy (God's) pleasure they are and were created.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus is the only one created by God himself, that is why he, Jesus, calls God his Father.
Jesus says so himself.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Everything else was created by, or better said, through the son.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

For him, Jesus? he created all things by the power, or through the power, of his Father. Jesus admitted himself, “without the Father I can do nothing.” Because Jesus would die in order to rescue his creation, he would inherit it all, become King of kings.

Georg

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2009,18:08)

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 17 2009,16:22) Seeking …….Yes Elohim (behaves as one or a singular) as our Bodies do, but they are made up of many parts, Our car behave as one car but are made up of many components, but we control it, The word Elohim is a representation of the SEVEN SPIRIT POWERS  which makes a group of POWERS Which can operate as ONE Force controlled by ONE LORD. . And they are controlled by (ONE) LORD. Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (powers) is ONE (LORD) not one GOD. The word GOD or power is an attribute of the ONLY ONE LORD> IMO love to you and yours……………………………gene Hi GB But what do you do with this scripture that says Jesus eyes are the seven Spirits of God? And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, “having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Revelation 5:6 This is why Jesus said… …and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:20 A mere man could never make that promise! WJ

Seven is God's number of perfection; a horn symbolizes power, Jesus has, and rules by God's perfect, and righteous power.
God does not have seven Spirits, he has one Holy perfect Spirit, by which also the son rules.    
The word “god” is really no more than a title, it means; a great one, a mighty one, some one with power over others, like “boss”. There is of course only one “Almighty God”, the Father, who has all power.

Georg

[Cindy]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2009,16:54)

Nick Hassan wrote: Quote The Father begat the Son. How did God beget the Son.

How did the son create the angels?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Georg

[Cindy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:24)

The Son is only said to have been uniquely begotten and not created and as God is Spirit it would seem likely that like the lesser angels he was like to God as spirit.

Thanks Nick for your answer.  Would you agree that the Son is the only begotten of God?

Blessings,
LU[/quote]
Hi LU,
Scripture does not say Jesus was the ONLY begotten son.

ONLY BEGOTTEN is one word in greek encompassing some
uniqueness in his origin.
———————————————————————————-

Yes it does Nick.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

When it comes to God, begotten or created simply means, brought into existence. God creates from nothing, man procreates from something.

Georg

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ April 18 2009,22:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2009,18:08) Quote (Gene @ Mar. 17 2009,16:22) Seeking …….Yes Elohim (behaves as one or a singular) as our Bodies do, but they are made up of many parts, Our car behave as one car but are made up of many components, but we control it, The word Elohim is a representation of the SEVEN SPIRIT POWERS  which makes a group of POWERS Which can operate as ONE Force controlled by ONE LORD. . And they are controlled by (ONE) LORD. Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (powers) is ONE (LORD) not one GOD. The word GOD or power is an attribute of the ONLY ONE LORD> IMO love to you and yours……………………………gene Hi GB But what do you do with this scripture that says Jesus eyes are the seven Spirits of God? And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, “having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Revelation 5:6 This is why Jesus said… …and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:20 A mere man could never make that promise! WJ Seven is God's number of perfection; a horn symbolizes power, Jesus has, and rules by God's perfect, and righteous power. God does not have seven Spirits, he has one Holy perfect Spirit, by which also the son rules.     The word “god” is really no more than a title, it means; a great one, a mighty one, some one with power over others, like “boss”. There is of course only one “Almighty God”, the Father, who has all power. Georg

Hi George

Quote (Cindy @ April 18 2009,22:42)

Seven is God's number of perfection; a horn symbolizes power, Jesus has, and rules by God's perfect, and righteous power.

Thank you for that George. God's Power is perfect and righteous. The horns and eyes are “Jesus” horns and eyes. Therefore Jesus who is God rules by his power which is perfect and righteous.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ and George…………….These Seven Spirit powers are before the throne of GOD and are the eyes of the LORD that go out into all the Earth. As Scripture says. These seven Spirits compose (ONE GOD)or POWER under the control of the LORD (HE EXISTS) GOD (WITH POWERS)> George the Spirit of Truth is one of the seven. All seven are intellects connect with POWER. and therefore are SEVEN POWERS or (ELOHIM) that are sent out from before the LORD (YWHA) . IMO

peace and love to you both………………………..gene

[Proclaimer]

It is written that angels are spirits. So they could be angels.

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ April 19 2009,09:24)

It is written that angels are spirits. So they could be angels.

Gene is probably confused by the version of scripture that calls them the seven fold spirit, which means seven spirits, and assumes the spirit means Holy Spirit.  I have found nothing to back up his conclusion in scripture or Jewish history.   The seven spirits could be the seven churches or it could be the spirits that are sent into the world though I believe those do not equal seven.   I cannot think of any other idea I have heard that is really supported by what is written.

[Is 1:18]

Quote

For him, Jesus? he created all things by the power, or through the power, of his Father. Jesus admitted himself, “without the Father I can do nothing.” Because Jesus would die in order to rescue his creation, he would inherit it all, become King of kings.

Cindy, where does Jesus say “without the Father I can do nothing”?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2009,07:44)

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “the exact representation of his being”, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3 And… “Who, being in very nature God”, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, Phil 2:6 I am going with the scriptures. For I see no difference in the ontology of the Father and Jesus. That coupled with the Monotheistic belief of the Hebrews that there is no “Other Theos” but one and all other “theos” is so-called “theos” and not theos at all. 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Blessings WJ

WJ, this is your own understanding. You are doing the addition yourself. Nowhere in scripture is your conclusion espoused.

Yes in nature he is theos. That just proves that he came from God because a being who originates from God is hardly going to be any other than a representation, image, son of God.

The clue is found in the words, image, representation, and glory of God. In fact a bigger clue is the word OF.

Either this is something you cannot grasp or is something that you ignore in order to keep hold of your tradition.

It does take a better man to face all things that are written and not jus the ones that agree with your theology.

Even we are born of God and created in his image. But Jesus is the prototype. None of us can claim that and so it is that we are going to be like him. Of course we will not be God either.

[Cindy]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 19 2009,16:48)

Quote For him, Jesus? he created all things by the power, or through the power, of his Father. Jesus admitted himself, “without the Father I can do nothing.” Because Jesus would die in order to rescue his creation, he would inherit it all, become King of kings. Cindy, where does Jesus say “without the Father I can do nothing”?

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.  
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Georg

[Cindy]

Quote (Gene @ April 19 2009,13:10)

WJ and George…………….These Seven Spirit powers are before the throne of GOD and are the eyes of the LORD that go out into all the Earth. As Scripture says. These seven Spirits compose (ONE GOD)or POWER under the control of the LORD (HE EXISTS) GOD (WITH POWERS)> George the Spirit of Truth is one of the seven. All seven are intellects connect with POWER. and therefore are SEVEN POWERS or (ELOHIM) that are sent out from before the LORD (YWHA) . IMO peace and love to you both………………………..gene

God has many attributes, but only one spirit/mind just as all of us have, the difference is, God's spirit/mind is perfect and holy, ours is not.

Georg

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