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Quote (thethinker @ April 05 2009,04:40) Lightenup said: Quote Keith and Thinker,
I am not questioning whether Jesus had the power or not to give Himself life after He died…that is a difficult concept though because; how could He give Himself life if He is dead? Both the Father and Son were actively involved in the resurrection, that is the main thing. That does not mean that they are one in the same or did the same act in raising Him.Kathi,
You said that it is a difficult concept that Christ could participate in His resurrection seeing that He was dead. But Christ did not go down to hades to “sleep” as most other men did. He went down to hades ALIVE and this is the difference. There were a few exceptions where saints went down to hades alive.LU said:
Quote I do think that there are two steps to Jesus' resurrection. From what I understand, until Jesus ascended into heaven, no one died and ascended into heaven and was returned to the Father. He was the firstborn from the dead, the first to be returned to the Father. When He told Mary to tell the disciples that, He said: John 20:17-22
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
Dying, then rising from the dead and then ascendind to the Father was all part of His resurrection.
Thinker-
BTW, the words “I ascend unto my Father” is written in the present tense and did not refer to the final ascension many days later.Kathi,
Jesus was talking about that “step” which would occur in three days,Quote Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up….He spoke of the temple of His body. Divide the resurrection into “steps” if you will. But the “step” Jesus spoke about was that which occurred in three days. Therefore, He was NOT referring to the second “step” which you say is the ascension.
LU said:
Quote Thanks for sending me deeper into study… The name “Seeking” is most appropriate for you.
your friend,
thinker
Thinker,
That second step DID occur during the three day period.Quote Divide the resurrection into “steps” if you will. But the “step” Jesus spoke about was that which occurred in three days. Therefore, He was NOT referring to the second “step” which you say is the ascension. It was the third day that He ascended to the Father to complete His resurrection. Then He came back that same day and showed Himself to the disciples for the first time since His death. It was many days later that He ascended to heaven and left the disciples with the comforter as I understand it.
I vaguely recall something about after Jesus' death that He went down to hades but I can't recall the passage. Do you know where that is?
Thanks,
KathiThinker,
Quote Seeking asked me a few days ago if one must be a trinitarian in order to be saved. I would answer no. But that would depend upon how far one would go in his conclusions. If a man's non-trinitarianism leads him to deny that Jesus is the Savior then he denies the basic Gospel.
1 John 4:21I would add this as a testimony that one loves GOD and His Son:
21 And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.
ASVI love this passage yet it is very convicting:
1 Cor 1313 If I can speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but am destitute of Love, I have but become a loud-sounding trumpet or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I possess the gift of prophecy and am versed in all mysteries and all knowledge, and have such absolute faith that I can remove mountains, but am destitute of Love, I am nothing.
3 And if I distribute all my possessions to the poor, and give up my body to be burned, but am destitute of Love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love knows neither envy nor jealousy. Love is not forward and self-assertive, nor boastful and conceited.
5 She does not behave unbecomingly, nor seek to aggrandize herself, nor blaze out in passionate anger, nor brood over wrongs.
6 She finds no pleasure in injustice done to others, but joyfully sides with the truth.
7 She knows how to be silent. She is full of trust, full of hope, full of patient endurance.
8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect, and so is our prophesying;
10 but when the perfect state of things is come, all that is imperfect will be brought to an end.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, felt like a child, reasoned like a child: when I became a man, I put from me childish ways.
12 For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love–these three; and of these the greatest is Love.
WeymouthLove ya
,
KathiQuote (kerwin @ April 05 2009,21:44) The Thinker wrote: Quote how could He have raised up His body?
The only scriptures I remember say God raised Jesus from the dead. I do not remember any that say he raised himself from the dead. Perhaps you can please refresh my memory. Thank you.
Greetings Kerwin,
Now you have another Scripture to store in your memory banks. Jesus said,Quote Destroy this temple in in three days I will raise it up…He spoke of the temple of His body (John 2:19-22) thinker
Hi tt,
Prayer is a difficult thing if God is thought to be a trinity.
But we should pray to the Father as our Master did.Satan loves putting stumbling blocks around our feet.
“Seeking” said:
Quote FATHER TAKES “FULL RESPONSIBILTY” AND FULLY
PROVIDES HIS SON. THE FATHER DOES THIS OF HIS OWN ACCORD.To All,
The inspired Scriptures say of Jesus that He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2). It says also that the Father sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10).From this “Seeking” infers that the Father assumed the “full” responsibility. It is evident that “Seeking” has no idea of the meaning of the word “propitiation.”
So what is a “propitiation”? That which propitiates is that which takes the strike in the place of another. If a man sees that a child is about to be struck by a car and he runs out in front of the car and rescues the child throwing him to safety and is struck instead, that man was that child's “propitiation.”
A house will have a lightning rod on it so the house won't suffer the strike of the bolt of lightning. The rod took the strike instead.
“Seeking” wants you to believe that the Father took the “full” responsibility. But how can this be seeing that the car and the rod represent the Father's wrath? It was the wrath of the Father that struck Jesus instead of YOU. Jesus was humiliated, tortured, spit upon and His body mutiliated before being put to death. But “Seeking” replies saying, “The Father took the full responsibility.”
Quote Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God…(Isaiah 53:4) Jesus had the option of not being stricken by God. He said that the Father would have given Him legions of angels to rescue him. But He denied Himself. Yet “Seeking” wants you to think that Jesus' self denial was not His responsibility.
thinker
Hi tt,
Yes the Son of God did what God wanted him to do.
Very wise choice.Mt6
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.Thinker……….brother the Father takes (full responsibility) of his whole creation, (everything) in it. Jesus was the Fathers Lamb offering for the sins of the whole world, Just as an old Israelite was Held responsible for His sins and had to offer up and innocent animal for them , the Father takes up (full Responsibility) for allowing all sin in the first Place. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus was for (ALL) SIN in the WORLD, Payed for BY GOD the FATHER By what HE offered (THE LAMB OF GOD). THEREFORE OUR SIN ARE FORGIVEN US. We were purchased with a price and GOD Payed that PRICE for our eternal life and not ours only but the life of the entire world, as John said. IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………..gene
G,
The reason Jesus was the lamb of God for us was that God is righteous and men had sinned.
God was not responsible for the fall of mankind but Satan and his evil followers were.Our righteous God did not become a sacrifice to Himself but His son, a man, was sent to be so.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
You are unwise to ascribe sin to our God of light.
thethinker,April wrote:[/quote]
“thinker” notesQuote To All,
The inspired Scriptures say of Jesus that He Himself is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2).That is what the text says – “1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. “
“thinker” notes
Quote It says also that the Father sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10). That is what it says – “1Jn 4:10 In this is love, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
It also says, ” In this is love not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
“thinker said
Quote If a man sees that a child is about to be struck by a car and he runs out in front of the car and rescues the child throwing him to safety and is struck instead, that man was that child's “propitiation.” We know who sent Jesus! Who sent the man?
“thinker said
Quote A house will have a lightning rod on it so the house won't suffer the strike of the bolt of lightning. The rod took the strike instead. We know who sent Jesus! Who put up the lightening rod?
“thinker” said
Quote It is evident that “Seeking” has no idea of the meaning of the word “propitiation.” Strong Definition
an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): – mercyseat, propitiation.
Thayer Definition:
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrificeRom 3:23-25 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
1) All fall short of the glory of God
2) Justification by his grace is our gift
(trinity belief totallyunnecessary)
3) Redemption is in Christ Jesus
4) God put Christ Jesus forward
5) God put him forward as propitiation by his blood
6) We receive it by faith (not trinitarian beliefs)
7) All this is a demonstration of God's righteousnessHeb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
1) Jesus became a merciful and faithful high priest
in the service of God
2) Jesus made propitiation for the sins of the people
in the service of GodWho sent the man to rescue the child? Who put up the lightening rod? Who sent Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins?
THANK YOU GOD, OUR FATHER!
Blessings,
Seeking
P.S. “Seeking” wants you to believe nothing but the word.
I have confidence God will make it plain to you.Lightenup said:
Quote You ask how the Father could be the propitiation for our sins. I don't know that it says He (the Father) was. In 1 John 2:2 it speaks of the Son being the propitiation of our sins. LU,
The Father was not the propitiation for our sins. He sent the Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 John 4:10). A “propitiation” receives the strike in another's place. If a man runs out in front of a car and saves a child and is struck by the car, the man became the “propitiation” for that child.The Father cannot be the “propitiation” because He struck Christ with His wrath (Isaiah 53). The one who is stricken is the propitiation and NOT the one who is doing the stricking. The propitiation is the one on the receiving end.
I will get to your other posts later today.
blessings, thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote It was the third day that He ascended to the Father to complete His resurrection. Then He came back that same day and showed Himself to the disciples for the first time since His death. It was many days later that He ascended to heaven and left the disciples with the comforter as I understand it. LU,
You said that Jesus ascended to the Father the same day of His resurrection and then came back and showed Himself to the disciples. Please give your Scriptural proof.
He showed Himself to the three women (Matt. 28:1-9)Jesus' resurrection was completed when He ascended from hades and then appeared in His mutilated body. It was His glorification that was in two steps.
LU said:
Quote I vaguely recall something about after Jesus' death that He went down to hades but I can't recall the passage. Do you know where that is? Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:31-32, Rom. 10:7
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote We know who sent Jesus! Who put up the lightening rod? But who took the strike?
“Seeking” (so called) delights in pitting Scripture against Scripture. And his idea that the Father took full responsibility is not true to every day experience. The name “Jesus” means “He shall save” (Matt. 1:21)
Therefore, by his own logic “Seeking” should apply the name “Jesus” to the Father.
thinker
Quote =thethinker,April 06 2009,08:51]
But who took the strike?You already answered that in your post. Now deal with
my question, WHO SENT THE MAN, WHO PUT UP THE LIGHTENING ROD?Quote “Seeking” (so called) delights in pitting Scripture against Scripture. “thinker” (misnomer) cannot deal with the TOTAL content of the scriptures HE posts and then states others are “pitting scripture against scripture.”
Quote And his idea that the Father took full responsibility is not true to every day experience. Now here we have discoverd the crux of “thinkers” problem. He interprets supernatural events conducted by a supernatural God contained in a book (the Bible) written supernaturally based on what is, true to every day experience. If it doesn't conform to HIS experience it cannot be. He mentioned this regarding miracles also.
Quote Therefore, “Therefore” is a word used frequently by ” thinker” that is never supported by what he said “before.” But no wonder,
he is using HIS every day experience which is a far cry from everyone elses experience.Quote The name “Jesus” means “He shall save” (Matt. 1:21) Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
LL Iēsus < Gk Iēsoûs < Heb Yēshūaʿ, syncopated var. of Yəhōshūaʿ God is help; in Early Modern E, the distinction (lost in ME) between Jesus (nom.) and Jesu (obl., especially voc.; see JESU ) was revived on the model of L and Gk sources; Jesus gradually supplanted the older form in both nom. and obl.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jesus?qsrc=2888
Strong’s Definition
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: – Jesus.
We have ALL already concluded that Jesus was sent to be
the Savior of mankind.Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
THANK YOU GOD FOR SENDING OUR SAVIOR. THANK YOU
JESUS FOR YOUR OBEDIENCE TO THE FATHERBlessings,
Seeking
Thayer Definition:
Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”
“Seeking” (so called) wrote:Quote 1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate
2) Jesus Barabbas was the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ
3) Joshua was the famous captain of the Israelites, Moses’ successor (Act_7:45, Heb_4:8)
4) Jesus, son of Eliezer, one of the ancestors of Christ (Luk_3:29)
5) Jesus, surnamed Justus, a Jewish Christian, an associate with Paul in the preaching of the gospel (Col_4:11)Strong’s Definition
To All,
It is well known that our brother “Seeking” pits Scripture against Scripture. Now he is using concordances and pitting them against the angel who spoke to Joseph.The angel said,
Quote For you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21) The name Jesus means “He shall save.”
But “Seeking” thinks that the Father did it all (though Jesus was the one who was spit upon). According to Seeking's logic the name “Jesus” must belong to the Father. So the angel who spoke to Joseph had one too many beers.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 06 2009,10:25) Thayer Definition:
Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”
“Seeking” (so called) wrote:Quote 1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate
2) Jesus Barabbas was the captive robber whom the Jews begged Pilate to release instead of Christ
3) Joshua was the famous captain of the Israelites, Moses’ successor (Act_7:45, Heb_4:8)
4) Jesus, son of Eliezer, one of the ancestors of Christ (Luk_3:29)
5) Jesus, surnamed Justus, a Jewish Christian, an associate with Paul in the preaching of the gospel (Col_4:11)Strong’s Definition
Allow me to post Strong's definition –Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: – Jesus.
Another time “thinker” (misnomer) stated “Thayer is out on a limb.” Of course, now that “thinker” agrees with Thayer,
Thayer is solid as a rock. But, of course, OTHERS pit scriptures and concordances against one another. Not
'thinker.”Quote Thayer Definition:
Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”
“Seeking” (so called) wrote:1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate
All of you have probably already concluded I DID NOT
write that definition. Thayer did. “thinker” (misnomer)
probably just wasn't thinking.Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Rom 3:25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Avoid the 'thinker” method of interpretation, “true to every day experience.” and the word will speak.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ April 06 2009,04:04) Lightenup said: Quote You ask how the Father could be the propitiation for our sins. I don't know that it says He (the Father) was. In 1 John 2:2 it speaks of the Son being the propitiation of our sins. LU,
The Father was not the propitiation for our sins. He sent the Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 John 4:10). A “propitiation” receives the strike in another's place. If a man runs out in front of a car and saves a child and is struck by the car, the man became the “propitiation” for that child.The Father cannot be the “propitiation” because He struck Christ with His wrath (Isaiah 53). The one who is stricken is the propitiation and NOT the one who is doing the stricking. The propitiation is the one on the receiving end.
I will get to your other posts later today.
blessings, thinker
Thinker,
You respond as if I disagree with you…why is that?Kathi
To All,
Who was beaten and tortured and spit upon? Who was humiliated and mutiliated and put to death? It was NOT the Father.Who laid down His life for the sheep? Again, it wasn't the Father.
Out friend “Seeking” thinks that John 3:16 denies that Christ is the Savior because it says that “God so loved the world.” But the Scripture also says this,
Quote Greater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Jesus laid down His life for “Seeking”. Therefore, Jesus' love for “Seeking” is second to no one. Jesus' love for “Seeking” in the least matches the Father's love. But “Seeking” would rather be damned than be wrong.
Again, the angel had one too many beers for telling Joseph to name the child “Jesus.” If Jesus was not the Savior then the name “Jesus” does not truly and properly belong to Him. And I am glad for the sake of those who sit on the side lines reading this thread. For the more “Seeking” rambles on with his errors the easier it becomes for others to see right through them.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2009,09:06) Quote (thethinker @ April 06 2009,04:04) Lightenup said: Quote You ask how the Father could be the propitiation for our sins. I don't know that it says He (the Father) was. In 1 John 2:2 it speaks of the Son being the propitiation of our sins. LU,
The Father was not the propitiation for our sins. He sent the Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 John 4:10). A “propitiation” receives the strike in another's place. If a man runs out in front of a car and saves a child and is struck by the car, the man became the “propitiation” for that child.The Father cannot be the “propitiation” because He struck Christ with His wrath (Isaiah 53). The one who is stricken is the propitiation and NOT the one who is doing the stricking. The propitiation is the one on the receiving end.
I will get to your other posts later today.
blessings, thinker
Thinker,
You respond as if I disagree with you…why is that?Kathi
LU,
There is no disagreement. We 're on the same page.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2009,09:11) To All,
Who was beaten and tortured and spit upon? Who was humiliated and mutiliated and put to death? It was NOT the Father.Who laid down His life for the sheep? Again, it wasn't the Father.
Out friend “Seeking” thinks that John 3:16 denies that Christ is the Savior because it says that “God so loved the world.” But the Scripture also says this,
Quote Greater love has no one than this that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13) Jesus laid down His life for “Seeking”. Therefore, Jesus' love for “Seeking” is second to no one. Jesus' love for “Seeking” in the least matches the Father's love. But “Seeking” would rather be damned than be wrong.
Again, the angel had one too many beers for telling Joseph to name the child “Jesus.” If Jesus was not the Savior then the name “Jesus” does not truly and properly belong to Him. And I am glad for the sake of those who sit on the side lines reading this thread. For the more “Seeking” rambles on with his errors the easier it becomes for others to see right through them.
thinker
Hi TT,
Yes it is not God who died.
It was the Son of God.There is no trinity except in the imaginations of men.
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