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God tell us to prove him, he makes the challenge in Maliciah. Does God expect us to believe in him without actual tangible proof? Are we to believe in him just by what others say, or are we to have our own actual evidence ourselves we can draw on, that conviences us of a real living God, not just knowledge about things created that conviences us about the existence of a GOD OR CREATOR of somekind, but a real personal relationship with that God, which actually gives us real proofs that he is involved in our personal lives.
Paul said this, tell me this, he that works mircales among you, does he do it by works of the law or by the hearing of your faith? So it quite apparent those people had activity by God being done among them, in their very lives, which was giving them there evidence they needed to fully convience them of a true God and his actual presence. Those events were not supposition of men or hear say event, but personal involvement of a personal GOD in their lives, given them the evidence they needed to be completely convinced.
Scripture says, “faith is what we hope for, the “evidence” of things not seen”, notice the word “evidence” that word evidence means spicific and real proof. In a court of law you can not give assumptions or hear says, in order for it to be allowed it must be an actual verifiable proof. The word faith has been over the years changed to includes assumptions, suppositions, even though there exists no actual or real tangible proofs. Being gullible to what someone is saying is now said to be faith. People are ask to simply accept whatever preachers say, without specific proof they are ask to accept what is said it on what they call faith.
So what gives us our faith , seening it is imposible to please God without faith.
How do you see lt?
peace and love to you all………………..gene
Hi Gene.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
wakeup.
Wakeup……my point is, even if you know “about” those things, how do you “PERSONALLY” KNOW God, on a PERSONAL BASIS. DOES HE INTERACT WITH YOU? Even the pharissies know about God, but did they have a “PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM? I wonder how many here have that kind of relationship with GOD the Father, does he evidence himself in their lives and if so how? What two way communication has taken place in your life lately, Paul seemed to believe God was evidencing himself in the lives of the church members by answered prayer and working of MIRCALES IN peoples lives.
Remember what Jesus said, “when the son of man comes will he find faith on the earth?” He said it, as if he would not faith on the earth when he came, i believe this is because the word faiths meaning has been changed over time to mean suppositions and assumptions not being connect to personal relationships with God. In the parable of the unjust judge this is brought out, Jesus said even though God does personally respond to a persons needs, there still seems to be a lacking of faith. I believe seek their personal faith by what they read more then their personal relationship with the Father, and they recon that as their faith. Your response seems to reflect that point of view. True faith contains actual personal evidence of the invisible God, who we all talk about. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Wakeup……I QUOTED Heb 11:1 as the true meaning of the word “FAITH” to me that is the true definition of what FAITH IS. My point was that people today, do not look at the word “EVIDENCE” AS A REQUIREMENT FOR true FAITH. They are very gullible and easily deceived into believing all kinds of things that have no true evidence, but are the assumptions and suppositions of men, and because of not demanding evidence they are drawn into all kinds of different believes in religion’s. TRUE “EVIDENCE” IS THE KEY TO TRUE FAITH. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
Wakeup,
You have to have some kind of evidence even if it is only a testimony. The Beareans are called noble for testing to see what Paul said was true. They did that by testing Scripture. I have several eye witness accounts that Jesus raised from his burial place. I view those witnesses as creditable.
On the other all people live by blind faith for René Descartes gave evidence that the only 2 things each of us can take without faith is first that we,ourselves think and second, implied by that fact, is that we exist. Everything after that is faith without evidence. I cannot prove you exist by using logical reasoning. I have take some premises on faith to logically reach the conclusion you do exist.
So even though I have evidence that Jesus rose from the dead that evidence is based on blind faith just like all but two things.
Kerwin……..that is my point, most believe faith is blind and if you go by modern dictionaries you will get that also, but what does scripture say about faith and what it is, FAITH “IS” THE SUBSTENCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE “EVIDENCE ” OF THINGS NOT SEEN. Now what does the word “EVIDENCE” mean does it mean hearsay or just believe anything others say about something?
EVIDENCE OF THINGS “NOT” SEEN, Now no one has seen God at any time, so what will give you that “EVIDENCE” , I KNOW ONLY ONE WAY THAT CAN TAKE PLACE, God who is unseen, must EVIDENCE himself to a person in order for that person to have “the REAL “EVIDENCE” WHICH PRODUCES REAL FAITH. Because people do not seek that true and real relationship with God they actually have no true faith, JUST BLIND FAITH as you say, and that is why Jesus said, “when the son of man comes will he find FAITH ON THE EARTH”. I DOUGHT HE WILL. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………………..gene
Gene and all, I agree with Gene that if God is truly in our lives there should be some evidence, though not all the time as we can go through “dessert” dry and barren stages which is a part of humility, a way of humbling us so that we are not too proud, therefore our faith can be tested, will we still believe and search diligently for God if we feel He is not there. Point is, yes, there is usually some evidence in our lives though not at every moment and time, and often times that evidence is only understood by ourselves, even if others do not see or understand it.
Furthermore, a dry barren dark night of the soul is a narrow path. However, for others dependent on the material world may suffer in other ways to test their faith, will they be attached to their home and luxuries for example, if they lose them and still have faith in God.
Perhaps I am wrong. What do you think?
Carmilla……..Right, without evidence there is only supositions, and assumptions, of men. EVIDENCE means what the word implys, but men don’t press the issue to prove GOD, AND AS A RESULT HAVE A ONLY A FORM OF FAITH, But true FAITH is built on literial “EVIDENCE”, NOT HEARSAY, OR SUPOSITIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS OF MERE MEN.
Therefore it says “have you faith?, have it unto yourself. No man can shake that kind of faith, because it is built on a real reality, backed up with PROOF which is the evidence in your own personal life. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………gene
To all…..TESTING scriptures produces no FAITH AT ALL, it only shows who is right or wrong about how our text is being interpreted, from a varity of different religious ideologies AND interpretations and translations. True faith in a living God goes far beyond scriptural knowledge. It takes a real comunication with GOD, A TRUE DIALOGUE WITH HIM, Had God not demonstrated his presents in my life i would not be here, nor would i have had any FAITH IN HIM EITHER, i realized long ago it took more then just words, “just church and bible talk”, it took real HARD evidence, and that evidence was based not no churchs or words of men or bibles, but actual interaction between the person and GOD HIMSELF. He gave me my “EVIDENCE”, over and over and over again many times in my life, i absolutely know beyond a doubt HE exists, not saying he is well pleased with me though, but That has produced my abiding FAITH, AND MY PERSONAL belief for me ALONE. I believe true faith requires true evidenced comunication between a man and the God that is in his life. Jesus said for us to seek, ask, and knock, that we might havethat abiding FAITH. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
Dear Gene,this is a great topic that really cuts to the core or heart of the matter of religion.I don’t know if you remember me since I haven’t been on here for a couple of years and wasn’t on here for too long a time before.But I have thought about these things and questioned my own faith and that of all too.And as you allude to,faith is the substance or assurance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen Heb 11. In other words our faith is based on presuppositions,assumptions and assertions,not on tangible evidence.I’ve even been taught that our faith should not rest on our own personal experiences,by those who claim we should have a personal relationship with God.But rather on the words of the bible,which as you say everyone argues over,interprets differently, and many people throughout history have been persecuted and slaughtered over.
But faith is the Evidence! Blessed are they who have believed who have not seen! Faith is what makes it real!
I have never paid much attention to all these so called defenders of the faith,or apologists who try to prove the bible or God from philosophy and science.Even Paul plainly says philosophy and science is not faith,which clearly means that is not what the Christian faith is based on.Is it blind faith then? Yes it is,because it’s foolishness to the world.Why? because they don’t see it or believe it. The Jews seek for a sign and the Greeks seek wisdom,but the wisdom of God says it pleases God to save people by the foolishness of preaching.1Cor 1:18-24 You make reference to Galatians 3 and the working of miracles but these miracles happened because of faith.Their faith was not based on miracles they had seen but rather on a crucified Christ whom they heard preached-he was evidently crucified before their eyes by preaching.They didn’t see him crucified with their physical eyes and they even thought they received the Spirit by believing words preached.
So will the Son of man find faith on the earth? Only if one is as persistent as the widow was with the unjust judge.
To all…….The parable of the unjust judge goes like this, There was in a city a judge,which feared not God, neither regarded man. And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him saying avenge me of mine advesary, and he would not foe a while: but he said within himself, though I fear not GOD, nor regard man; yet because this widow troubles me,i will avenge her, lest her continual coming she weary me. And the lord said, Hear what the “UNJUST” Judge said, And shall not GOD (who is a “just”judge) avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though (the word “though” is a misinturption it should be “WILL”) he bear long with them? (another words, like the “unjust” judge did), I tell you he will avenge them “SPEEDLY”. “Nevertheless” when the Son of man comes will he find faith on the earth?
So even though God does take action for his elect “speedely” , which should increase the faith need in their lives, of the existence of the unseen God, they seem to not hold on to that evidence over time it appears. But true Faith does require evidence and it is given to GOD’S ELECT, or it is useless, just supositions based on hearsay and can mislead people into all kind of different unsubstantiated beliefs and traditions of men.
Remember what it say, HAVE YOU FAITH? HAVE IT UNTO “YOURSELF”. Faith is personal and measurable.
peace and love to you all and yours…………….gene
So dear Gene are you saying”God’s elect” somehow have tangible evidence that his rejects don’t? Does God answer the prayer of sinners? Is there even such a thing as a “sinner’s prayer”? Or maybe it should be called the”elect’s prayer” which God caused them to pray and it wasn’t of themselves?
Is God the unjust judge? You decide,for God hears some sinners’ prayers while others he does not and he also sends some a spirit of delusion.Who can say who is deluded and who is not? Maybe God will sort it out at the end?
What’s the tangible evidence? Because God answered a prayer? Maybe he did or did not or he sent the devil to deceive the person.Or it would’ve happened with or without prayer.
Perhaps we must all wait for the final judgements whenever they may be.
If there is such thing as “grace” then God is that unjust judge that does as he pleases and has mercy on whomever he wills to have mercy.
And we must all judge whether he answers speedily or not.
Mal 3:10 Bring the whole tithe(what i ask of you ) into the storehouse(our soul the temple of God), that there may be food in my house(spiritual truth). Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
blessed his the man that does this ,amen
Precious Terra,what are you saying here? Are you really saying to keep the tithe to yourself? Yourself being the temple of God? Malachi the desperate priest would not agree with that! God wanted food for his priests/himself.
But Paul-praise God,says we should give cheerfully and not by compulsion-no tithing.But giving to yourself doesn’t quite fit the condition of this promise.So where is proof of God except subjectively,that is to yourself.
AndrewAD
read it more carefully,and think as Jesus teachings not as a pharisees ,
all glory must go to God ;but if you have nothing of God how are going to glorify God ?
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
So are saying I have nothing of God then? And just why would you think or say that?
Can you prove God is with you? Do you do greater works than Jesus? If not perhaps maybe you are not a real believer either,but just another pharisee.
AndrewAD
if you test God you test him by doing all the things he ask and then see if he does not bless you ,
for that is what Mal3;10 means ,
as to prove to you if god is with me or not is truly mine to know and for you to find out if i am saying the truth of God or mine ,
1Co 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
1Co 1:31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”RO 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
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