Protokos in colossians 1:15 means preeminent

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2010,14:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 01 2010,14:38) T8………The term “firstborn” still references a Position even if you apply it to a literial first born son. Jesus could not have (become) the First Born Son of GOD unless He recieved it after his berth through an adoption process, because he would already have been the First Born or Begotten right? and  why would GOD say. “(THIS) day i have begotten you”, not some distant past before his berth on earth, as you seem to believe brother.  IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene Hi Gene, How do you know when God said, “Today I have begotten you”?  Could it not have been the first words Jesus ever heard a zillion years ago?  How do you know? Also, how could God have SENT His only begotten into the world if he wasn't already begotten before he was sent? peace and love, mike

Mike………I see you point, but truth is why wold God even say that in reference to a billion years ago, that is kinda like garbing for straws. I recall reading some where that even the words were changed by trinitarians about the voice that came out of Heaven at Jesus baptism, and that there are Greek text that SAY the voice said (This Day) I have begotten you, can't recall exactly where i read it , but checking out a Greek linear should produce it. GOD can only Beget someone because He (ONLY) is TRUE GOD. The word begotten i believe simply means bring forth, not necessarily through a birth process like humans do. That begotten process starts with impregnation and collimates with berth. WE are begotten by GOD when we recieve HIS Holy Spirit (INTO) us. We at that point of time are begotten of GOD, Just like Jesus was at the Jordan river. This gestation process continues until we are truely born into the family of GOD. Jesus was himself Begotten at that moment at the Jordan river and His gestation period began , but he was not full born until He was resurected and give eternal life. I believe Jesus as well as us are adopted as Sons and Daughters of GOD. Through a creation process of GOD'S Spirit OR SEED if you will.

1 John 3:9………….> Whosoever is born of GOD does not commit sin, because His SEED remains (IN) Him: and he (cannot) sin, because he is born of GOD.

Does begotten mean Born?

peace and love to you and yours……………gene

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus quoted:

Quote

The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank.

WJ,

Your information is absolutely correct. Furthermore, one who was not born first in time but was “appointed” the firstborn was treated as if He was the first chronologically.

Manasseh was chronologically before Ephraim. But Jacob appointed Ephraim the firstborn and as the result he was “set before” Manasseh.

20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will bless, saying, ‘May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!’” And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh. Gen. 48:20

The word “set” here means “appointed.” Ephraim was appointed before Manasseh. God honored Jacob's appointment of Ephraim as the firstborn:

“They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9).

So God honored Jacob's appointmment of Ephraim as the firstborn and treated Ephraim as if he was “before” Manasseh.

Israel was “appointed” as God's firstborn son though he was born after Esau.

22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

The firstborn was the HEIR. Hebrews 1 explicitly says that Jesus was “appointed” Heir of all things. Therefore, He was appointed the firstborn just as His father's David and Solomon before Him.

It is interesting to note that Young's Commentary on the Bible says that the word “firstborn” means “heir.”

http://books.google.com/books?i….f=false

Firstborn = Heir = Supreme Son over a family.

Paul explicitly said that firstborn means “head” and “preeminent” (or supreme).

This is staring the anti-trinitarians in their faces:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the HEAD of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE.

Note that Paul said that Jesus is the firstborn “that” in all things He might be supreme. The word “that” is a pesty little word for the anti-trinitarians. It is the Greek “hina” and it means “in order that.” Paul was saying that Christ is the firstborn IN ORDER THAT in ALL THINGS He might have the PREEMINENCE.

The word “hina” speaks to the reason Jesus was appointed the Firstborn. Therefore, the reason God appointed Jesus to be the Firstborn is so He might be SUPREME! “He is the firstborn…in order that in ALL things He might have the PREEMINENCE.”

Yet many here say that the word firstborn does not mean preeminent.

Then there is the genetive case which is the case of possession. Paul was saying that Jesus is the firstborn “of all creation” (mankind) meaning that He owns all mankind. The genetive case is the case of possession.

“He is the firstborn (heir) possessing all creation (mankind).”

Jude 4 compliments of the NWT:

4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our ONLY OWNER and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Thank you NWT translators. You got something right!

Jack

[JustAskin]

What can I say – Should I say?
Shall I make a revelation this day?
Light a match, strike a Spark!
Truth emerges from the dark
How long will it remain –
before getting coverd by the stain?
But let this serve as a lesson…
Who knows the answer to 'Begotten”?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2010,15:39)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 31 2010,16:11) Quote (t8 @ May 31 2010,13:05) Let me say that a first-born is literally a first-born and has certain privileges as a result. David was described as a “first born” (ps 89) and yet he was the literal last born of Jesse. There goes that theory…. Hi All The view of some is that the word “Begotten” when applied to Jesus means born or “God begets a god”! What is so funny about this is they not only claim God is asexual and try to prove that the word begotten means God gave literal birth to Jesus before time, but then they completely “Hi jack” the word begotten by reinventing the principle of “every kind bearing after its own kind” and give the word begotten a whole new meaning like… Man begets a lesser man! Or God begets a lesser god! If you say the Biblical meaning of “Begotten” means to be born then it should be… Dog begets dog! Man begets man! God begets God! And not… God begets demigod! So the definition of the word “begotten” according to the Arian view is not a scriptural view at all is it, and isn't even consistent with the literal definition of the word? WJ

Keith,

Again you are correct. The idea of origin in the genes part of “monogenes” had been dropped by the time the new testament was written. The word “monogenes” meant “only of a kind.” Example: The word “homogenous” means “humankind.”

Jesus is God's kind and as such He could not have had a beginning. John 1:3 literally reads, “Without Him not one thing came into being that has come into being.”

Jack

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2010,16:22)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 31 2010,00:14) Quote (t8 @ May 31 2010,13:07) Hey at least he changed his name from the thinker (which didn't suit) to something more accurate. After all, he does jump around quite a bit trying to dodge difficulties. I don't see it that way. Jack is an anomaly in this forum – he consistently and cogently answers questions. He answers the whole post and doesn't cherry pick. I haven't seen him run from anyone. Amen!

Thanks guys! I think highly of you too. You both are well seasoned commentators unlike our novice opponents here!

Jack

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2010,15:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 31 2010,23:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 31 2010,23:09) Hi Kathi, That sounded so good….for a minute.  Then I remembered that God created light through Jesus, right?  Isn't light one of the “all things in existence”? Good night Kathi.  I will pray for understanding and for the right words and scriptures needed to share that understanding with others. peace and love, mike Mike, Remember that the light of day one is not the light of day four, the sun, moon and stars.  If the light of day one is the Son, which is before anything came into a completed existence, the light of day four could have been made through the Son. Quote Gen 1:1-19 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. NASU LU It doesn't matter because verse 2 says the earth and the waters already existed before day one! Therefore the “nothing came into existence without him” John 1:3 includes the light of the first day! WJ

Keith,

The last I discussed this with Kathi she said that Christ came into being AFTER the heavens were created when God said “let there be light” (light a reference to the Son).

But the Father Himself said to the Son, “The heavens are the work of YOUR hands” (Heb. 1:10).

Kathi's error is too obvious. She has no credibility.

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Kathi

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2010,23:42)

LU It doesn't matter because verse 2 says the earth and the waters already existed before day one! Therefore the “nothing came into existence without him” John 1:3 includes the light of the first day! WJ

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

WJ, Quote NT:1096 gi/nomai ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen”- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.): KJV – arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled,  God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed,  soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) The ginomai in John 1:3 is a coming into being in a 'completed sense', not an incompleted sense.

Really, that seems like conjecture on your part because I do no see “in a completed sense” in the definition of “ginomai”.

John 1:3 says “not anything – oude en, not even one thing” came into existence” without the Word.

Verse 2 in Genesis shows the earth and waters as things!

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

The earth certainly wasn't complete before day one of creation and the waters weren't in their completed state before day one of creation either.

No but the earth existed in its incomplete state…

“not anything – oude en”, not even one thing came into existence” without the Word.

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

John 1 already establishes the presence of the word and you don't believe that the 'word' brought the 'word' into existence do you?

Nope, for the Word like God who the Word was with were both there in the “beginning” of all things! John 1:1, 2

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

The word existed before all things that came into being yet the word didn't always exist no matter how badly you would want that.

It’s more like how badly you want there to be scriptures to support your theory that the Word that was with God and was God did not always exist with God! But you have none, nada zilche!

In the beginning the Word was already there. Therefore the Word was before Time, matter and space. What is before the “beginning of day one”, or the beginning of time? Eternity!

The other problem that you have is everything is composed of atoms, therefore even using your  “the earth existed in its incomplete state” theory, the atom or the “Matter” that the incomplete earth and water is made of is “in its complete state” therefore once again is part of the “not anything – oude en”, not even one thing came into existence” without the Word..

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

The all things that came into being was obviously not including the God that the 'word' was with, yet the God that the 'word' was with, existed…right?

Yep! That’s why he clarifies in verse 2 of John that the Word in the beginning was with God and therefore excluding God and God the Word form being included in the “Nothing came into being that came into being apart from him!”  

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

Or are you suggesting that even the God that the 'word' was with came into existence through the 'word.'

Don't know how you could get this?  

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

I know that you don't think that which would be foolish right?

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,00:05)

We have to use some understanding here.  If everything came into being through the word, that would naturally mean those things beyond the 'word' and the one that spoke the 'word.'

The word “everything” means everything including time, space, matter and light, right?

WJ

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 02 2010,03:25)

What can I say – Should I say? Shall I make a revelation this day? Light a match, strike a Spark! Truth emerges from the dark How long will it remain – before getting coverd by the stain? But let this serve as a lesson… Who knows the answer to 'Begotten”?

Speak the Word of God,
For God makes revelation everyday,
He is the light, the very spark of inspiritation,
Truth ends all darkness of confusion,
It has always remained,
but the only stain is in our very hearts, mind and might.
The very lesson relies
on Whom knows the answer to “Begotten”

[JustAskin]

SF, you are true to your name – So funny (Good!) I creased up – …

I knew that one day
there would be another to say –
But would it not be fine
if you could make it rhyme

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ and WJ,
Do you think the mutual backslapping approval you offer each other is better than the approval of God?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:25)

Hi KJ and WJ, Do you think the mutual backslapping approval you offer each other is better than the approval of God?

Hahahahahahaha,

That was too funny
Sorry,

comedy post of the day award given to nick!

[Arnold]

W.J. and K! What do you think in the beginning means? To me it means that Jesus did have a beginning. He came forth from God the Father. Proverbs 8:25. Now don't tell me that is wisdom, my logic will not permit me to think so, use your thinker…And what does firstborn mean? Funny to think that it means He was always there with the Father before He came to earth as a man….my two cents……Peace and Love to you, Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Arnold @ June 01 2010,15:05)

W.J. and K!  What do you think in the beginning means?  To me it means that Jesus did have a beginning.

Really? The Father was there with Jesus in the beginning! So does that mean the Father had a beginning?

WJ

[Lightenup]

WJ,
You ask:

Quote

The word “everything” means everything including time, space, matter and light, right?

Direct your attention to Col 1 to help you understand what the everything is…everything IN heaven and ON earth…and we know from the context that the Father and the Son are already in existence and not included in the everything created.

Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him.
NASU

And to help roo along…we are shown in Genesis 1 that the heavens were not completed till after day one. It was after day one that they were spread out to become the sky and separated from the seas. It was also after day one that God even gave it the name 'heaven' and it was also after day one that God filled the sky with the visible lights.

Gen 1:6-19
6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
NASU

I know that I have shown you all this before.

[Arnold]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2010,07:21)

Quote (Arnold @ June 01 2010,15:05) W.J. and K!  What do you think in the beginning means?  To me it means that Jesus did have a beginning. Really? The Father was there with Jesus in the beginning! So does that mean the Father had a beginning? WJ

W.J. You know that the Father always existed don't be funny…. all those Scriptures that Kathi is giving again, I also have given over and over again, yet you and KJ just ignore and ignore this…. you know that is why I have not posted for awhile…. when members that have been here for so long and yet just don't want to learn, why even bother with them….at one time I too said you got to be kidding me, but God did not leave me in that unbelief… lucky me…. Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:25)

Hi KJ and WJ, Do you think the mutual backslapping approval you offer each other is better than the approval of God?

Nick,

If you cared about the approval of God you would not demean His beloved Son.

KJ

[KangarooJack]

Kathi said:

Quote

And to help roo along…we are shown in Genesis 1 that the heavens were not completed till after day one.

Kathi,

So what? The Father attributed the creation of the heavens to the Son's own hands. It does not say that the Son came in at some point during the creation of the heavens. A child can understand this Kathi.

According to the Father: “The heavens are the works of your hands.”

According to Kathi: The finished work of the heavens are the work of your hands.”

the Roo

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 01 2010,15:50)

WJ, You ask: Quote The word “everything” means everything including time, space, matter and light, right? Direct your attention to Col 1 to help you understand what the everything is…everything IN heaven and ON earth…and we know from the context that the Father and the Son are already in existence and not included in the everything created. Col 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. NASU And to help roo along…we are shown in Genesis 1 that the heavens were not completed till after day one.  It was after day one that they were spread out to become the sky and separated from the seas.  It was also after day one that God even gave it the name 'heaven' and it was also after day one that God filled the sky with the visible lights. Gen 1:6-19 6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. NASU I know that I have shown you all this before.

Kathi

This is a diversion from John 1:3.

Your theory about the definition of ginomai “is a coming into being in a 'completed sense', not an incompleted sense” is wrong!

Is the molecular structure of the universe “atoms”?

If so then the earth and water in Gen 1:2 are made of “atoms” which are part of the “nothing came into existence without him” and were complete!

“not anything – oude en, not even one thing” came into existence” AT Robertson.

Time, space and matter is a part of the everything that came into existence through him!

This completely blows away your theory that “anything exised” apart from him including the light of the first day which came after Gen 1:1, 2.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
To fellowship with the Father and the son you need to abide in scripture.[2Jn9]
So why do you prefer your own thoughts?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Arnold @ June 02 2010,07:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 02 2010,07:21) Quote (Arnold @ June 01 2010,15:05) W.J. and K!  What do you think in the beginning means?  To me it means that Jesus did have a beginning. Really? The Father was there with Jesus in the beginning! So does that mean the Father had a beginning? WJ W.J.  You know that the Father always existed don't be funny…. all those Scriptures that Kathi is giving again, I also have given over and over again, yet you and KJ just ignore and ignore this…. you know that is why I have not posted for awhile…. when members that have been here for so long and yet just don't want to learn, why even bother with them….at one time I too said you got to be kidding me, but God did not  leave me in that unbelief… lucky me…. Irene

Irene,

The problem with your conclusion is that both Jesus and God are called “the beginning.”

God is called “the beginning” (Rev. 21:6)

Jesus is called “the begining: (Rev. 22:13)

So WJ's point stands!

the Roo

[Author]

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