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Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 04 2010,10:19) The problem with understanding the “true knowledge” goes back to Col 1:15. If you don't accept Jesus as the firstborn and want to explain away firstborn, you'll try to explain “him” to be someone else (Greek/Jew/circumcised,etc), other than Jesus, who was created by God, and is in all.
Hi David,I very much believe that Jesus is the firstborn. I'm just not willing to reach so far for “proof”. My understanding is that it is talking about the people Paul is talking to at the time, not Jesus.
I'm not saying you're wrong in you interpretation, I just haven't had time to look into it real closely yet. (I was hoping you had already done the leg work and could just tell me your findings.
) From what you posted, I still don't see it ABSOLUTELY meaning Jesus, in fact I doubt it.
If I make claims using “weak” proof like this, or by twisting scripture to say what I want it to say, I have become no better than the trinitarians and non-preexisters.
I will eventually take a hard look at it.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2010,12:22) Quote (davidbfun @ July 25 2010,14:33) Hello Irene, If Jesus is the firstborn of all things created….
He IS the BEGINNING (since God has no beginning.)
You are right! Jesus had a beginning…as the son of God.
David
Hi David,Be careful with that kind of phrasing. I'm debating SimplyForgiven right now on this very thing. He thinks that since Jesus is THE Beginning, he is also the Alpha and Omega and God Almighty that accompanies the words “THE Beginning and end” in Rev.
God IS the beginning. Eveything else HAD a beginning. Jesus was the beginning OF God's creation, and OF the ones who will be raised, etc, but he is not THE Beginning period.
mike
Hi Mike,I, too, don't agree with the “Additions” of the words Alpha and Omega inserted into Revelation, and I understand your concern.
I agree with the Bible and Col 1:15-18 which says:
Jesus = firstborn of all creation (thus son of God)
Jesus = before all things
Jesus = is the beginning
Jesus= preeminent; first place in everything.To me, God EXISTS, and is beyond “time” and its properties. Perpetual or continual is how I see God. “Beginning” is a juncture in time. Jesus is the “beginning” of the creation of God and therefore time “began” with Jesus….as it didn't exist before.
The Professor
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,18:41) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 04 2010,10:19) The problem with understanding the “true knowledge” goes back to Col 1:15. If you don't accept Jesus as the firstborn and want to explain away firstborn, you'll try to explain “him” to be someone else (Greek/Jew/circumcised,etc), other than Jesus, who was created by God, and is in all.
Hi David,I very much believe that Jesus is the firstborn. I'm just not willing to reach so far for “proof”. My understanding is that it is talking about the people Paul is talking to at the time, not Jesus.
I'm not saying you're wrong in you interpretation, I just haven't had time to look into it real closely yet. (I was hoping you had already done the leg work and could just tell me your findings.
) From what you posted, I still don't see it ABSOLUTELY meaning Jesus, in fact I doubt it.
If I make claims using “weak” proof like this, or by twisting scripture to say what I want it to say, I have become no better than the trinitarians and non-preexisters.
I will eventually take a hard look at it.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Just came across this, you might like.
For if God existed in time, and created all, there would be one thing He did not create. Namely, time.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,18:41) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 04 2010,10:19) The problem with understanding the “true knowledge” goes back to Col 1:15. If you don't accept Jesus as the firstborn and want to explain away firstborn, you'll try to explain “him” to be someone else (Greek/Jew/circumcised,etc), other than Jesus, who was created by God, and is in all.
Hi David,I very much believe that Jesus is the firstborn. I'm just not willing to reach so far for “proof”. My understanding is that it is talking about the people Paul is talking to at the time, not Jesus.
I'm not saying you're wrong in you interpretation, I just haven't had time to look into it real closely yet. (I was hoping you had already done the leg work and could just tell me your findings.
) From what you posted, I still don't see it ABSOLUTELY meaning Jesus, in fact I doubt it.
If I make claims using “weak” proof like this, or by twisting scripture to say what I want it to say, I have become no better than the trinitarians and non-preexisters.
I will eventually take a hard look at it.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,This is CS Lewis trying to explain time:
Suppose I am writing a novel. I write “Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!” For Mary who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary's maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as long as I pleased and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary's time (the time inside the story) at all.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 04 2010,10:43) To me, God EXISTS, and is beyond “time” and its properties. Perpetual or continual is how I see God. “Beginning” is a juncture in time. Jesus is the “beginning” of the creation of God and therefore time “began” with Jesus….as it didn't exist before. The Professor
Hi David,So then you disagree with God, who said in Rev that He was the beginning?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 04 2010,11:06) Mike, This is CS Lewis trying to explain time:
Suppose I am writing a novel. I write “Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!” For Mary who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary's maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as long as I pleased and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary's time (the time inside the story) at all.
That is real cool! I love it. But unforunately, it doesn't erase the fact that God said He was the beginning and the end.mike
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