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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,14:53) Hi MB,
If you offer the words of a carnal man you cannot expect them to be respected but you can expect to be dragged further from truth by the experts in vain and useless theology
Hi Nick,While I clearly understand and appreciate your point, I don't think it harms me to look up some of the big words Paul uses in the dictionary. True, the dictionary isn't inspired of God, but it sure sheds some light now and then, agreed?
Eusebius and Ignatius are my early A.D. dictionaries, okay?
mike
Hi Paul,
You said:
Quote For instance if I call you a so-called christian my inference is you are not a real christian. No, I mean if I call you the President, although you may indeed be the president of the big word users club, you are not THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
You said:
Quote Oh, you mean a mighty one like YHWH in Isaiah 10:13, 21 & 34? That kind of mighty one? Yes, exactly. There's one big difference though, only one of those mighty gods is the Almighty God and God of gods. Since Jesus calls Jehovah “my God”, who do you think it might be?
You said:
Quote Yes He is. Check any Greek-English interlinear. No, he isn't. That is what I spent most of the lost time on. I word for worded the Greek. I'm tired. I'll do it again tomorrow as I assume you'll have answers for my “WJ” questions tomorrow also?
You said:
Quote Hebrews 1:8 is certainly not out of place in the broader context of chapter one. You are right. The whole chapter pretty much confirms that Jesus is someone other than God.
You said:
Quote Matt 16:13-16 refutes this), No it doesn't. Jesus asks who people are saying the Son of Man is. And then he asks who one of them thinks he is.
goodnight pagan,
mikeQuote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,15:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2010,14:41) I spent an hour answering this already, then when I went to preview, I lost everything. So this is the slimmed-down “I'm angry” version.
This is super-annoying. I sympathise with you here.
That has never happened to me and I can't think of why it would happen. Maybe you could post into Wordpad or something so you can save it periodically, and then paste the post. If you use a Word Processor with a spell checker, then that would kill 2 birds with one stone.Perhaps it happened because you lost your connection at that moment, although hitting the back button should preserve the post in the posting window.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,15:38) Hi MB,
Don't play in their playground where they can trip you up.
Also, beware of the devil in the details.Here are comments from Calvin, Matthew Henry, and Wesley about the firstborn being begotten before creation:
Quote http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom42.v.ii.iii.html The first-born of every creature. The reason of this appellation is immediately added — For in him all things are created, as he is, three verses afterwards, called the first-begotten from the dead, because by him we all rise again. Hence, he is not called the first-born, simply on the ground of his having preceded all creatures in point of time, but because he was begotten by the Father, that they might be created by him, and that he might be, as it were, the substance or foundation of all things. It was then a foolish part that the Arians acted, who argued from this that he was, consequently, a creature. For what is here treated of is, not what he is in himself, but what he accomplishes in others.
Colossians 1:12-29
II. Concerning the person of the Redeemer. Glorious things are here said of him; for blessed Paul was full of Christ, and took all occasions to speak honourably of him. He speaks of him distinctly as God, and as Mediator. 1. As God he speaks of him, v. 15-17. (1.) He is the image of the invisible God. Not as man was made in the image of God (Gen 1:27), in his natural faculties and dominion over the creatures: no, he is the express image of his person, Heb 1:3. He is so the image of God as the son is the image of his father, who has a natural likeness to him; so that he who has seen him has seen the Father, and his glory was the glory of the only-begotten of the Father, John 1:14; 14:9. (2.) He is the first-born of every creature. Not that he is himself a creature; for it is
prototokos pases ktiseos
—born or begotten before all the creation, or before any creature was made, which is the scripture-way of representing eternity, and by which the eternity of God is represented to us: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was; when there was no depth, before the mountains were settled, while as yet he had not made the earth, Prov 8:23-26. It signifies his dominion over all things, as the first-born in a family is heir and lord of all, so he is the heir of all things, Heb 1:2. The word, with only the change of the accent,
prototokos,
signifies actively the first begetter or producer of all things, and so it well agrees with the following clause. Vid. Isidor. Peleus. epist. 30 lib. 3. (3.) He is so far from beginning himself a creature that he is the Creator: For by him were all things created, which are in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, v. 16. He made all things out of nothing, the highest angel in heaven, as well as men upon earth. He made the world, the upper and lower world, with all the inhabitants of both. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made which was made, John 1:3. He speaks here as if there were several orders of angels: Whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, which must signify either different degrees of excellence or different offices and employments. Angels, authorities, and powers, 1 Peter 3:22. Christ is the eternal wisdom of the Father, and the world was made in wisdom. He is the eternal Word, and the world was made by the word of God. He is the arm of the Lord, and the world was made by that arm. All things are created by him and for him;
di autou kai eis auton.
Being created by him, they were created for him; being made by his power, they were made according to his pleasure and for his praise. He is the end, as well as the cause of all things. To him are all things, Rom 11:36;
eis auton ta panta.
(4.) He was before all things. He had a being before the world was made, before the beginning of time, and therefore from all eternity. Wisdom was with the Father, and possessed by him in the beginning of his ways, before his works of old, Prov 8:22. And in the beginning the Word was with God and was God, John 1:1. He not only had a being before he was born of the virgin, but he had a being before all time. (5.) By him all things consist. They not only subsist in their beings, but consist in their order and dependences. He not only created them all at first, but it is by the word of his power that they are still upheld, Heb 1:3. The whole creation is kept together by the power of the Son of God, and made to consist in its proper frame. It is preserved from disbanding and running into confusion.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)http://www.biblestudytools.com/comment….-1.html
1:15Who is – By describing the glory of Christ, and his pre – eminence over the highest angels, the apostle here lays a foundation for the reproof of all worshippers of angels. The image of the invisible God – Whom none can represent, but his only begotten Son; in his divine nature the invisible image, in his human the visible image, of the Father. The first begotten of every creature – That is, begotten before every creature; subsisting before all worlds, before all time, from all eternity.All of these guys place “the firstborn over all creation” title to be firstborn before creation, not as a man or as a resurrected Christ.
Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,17:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,15:38) Hi MB,
Don't play in their playground where they can trip you up.
Also, beware of the devil in the details.
If the playground is context and grammar then yes, be careful.Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2010,17:26) Here are comments from Calvin, Matthew Henry, and Wesley about the firstborn being begotten before creation:
It's fine to post commentaries Kathi, I actually think it brings some rigor to the debate, but in this instance it's important to point out that a procreative meaning for firstborn is not the general consensus.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2010,14:41) Hi Paul,
I spent an hour answering this already, then when I went to preview, I lost everything. So this is the slimmed-down “I'm angry” version.
That made my day.
Sorry no offenseHi Is1.18,
Theology is like studying the moon on a moonless night.
All theory and opinion.Best to get to know your God and His son.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2010,15:34) No, I mean if I call you the President, although you may indeed be the president of the big word users club, you are not THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
KJ is right, you do have last-worditis, you absolutely must have the last say even if you have nothing sensible to offer. I have no idea how the point you made here relates to mine. There is only one one issue to address here Mike – did Paul's use of the term “so-called” carry a different connotation to the every day parlance? I don't know of an application outside of “not the real article” for so-called. Do you?Quote Yes, exactly. There's one big difference though, only one of those mighty gods is the Almighty God and God of gods. Since Jesus calls Jehovah “my God”, who do you think it might be?
Have you proven yet that only the Father is called El shaddai? No. When you do this will be a valid line of reasoning.Quote No, he isn't.
Did you check the interlinear I linked yo to? Might pay to.Quote assume you'll have answers for my “WJ” questions tomorrow also?
What questions?Quote You are right. The whole chapter pretty much confirms that Jesus is someone other than God.
Incorrect.Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HASANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?Here is a quick synopsis:
- The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
- He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
- He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
- He “upholds [sustains] all things by His power” (v 3)
- The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
- He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
- He is credited with the role of Creator of the heavens and earth (v 10)
- He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
- Is said to be immutable, a sole attribute of YHWH [e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)
Quote No it doesn't. Jesus asks who people are saying the Son of Man is. And then he asks who one of them thinks he is.
You're grasping at straws.Is. 1:18 said to Mikeboll:
Quote KJ is right, you do have last-worditis, you absolutely must have the last say even if you have nothing sensible to offer.
This is why Mike does not want a format style debate. He would go on ad infinitum competing for the last word which a formal debate would not allow.Is:1:18
Quote Here is a quick synopsis: The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
Yes and the NWT corrupts the the Greek word and renders it “reflection.”Is. 1:18:
Quote He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
Yes and the word “charakter” means that Jesus in His nature and substance is indistinguishable from the Father. The LXX uses the word in Leviticus 13:28,“And if the glossy spot continues unchanged and makes no advance in the skin, and is rather INDISTINCT, it is the mark of the inflammation….” Leupold's translation
Jesus in His nature and substance is INDISTINCT from His Father though He is indeed a distinct Person.
KJ
Is1,
Where in verse 8 is Jesus called 'God' with the 'definite' article?
Do you say that the 'word' 'O' is 'definite'?Also, how is Jesus immutable if he was spirit and then flesh and then spirit?
Also, 'Worship', the word is not 'Worship' but 'Obeisence'.
Only God is to be Worshipped', yes, you even said it yourself…only God…not Jesus, only God.
He who gave life to his Son, he must be worshipped.
The (Definite) Son cannot be The (definite) Father and only The (Definite) Father is God, God Almighty.But … ALL sentient creation of God Almighty … is 'a form of God' which we write as 'god' and 'gods' in lowercase.
Also, 'O God', is not refering to God Almighty but to 'a Mighty One', hero, one of great power… This does not necessarily refere to one God but to any aentient entity that qualifies depending on context.
'My God', 'Our God', 'Your God', indicates a reference to a personal 'God' of that person.
To a Philistine, 'Our God' would refer to 'Baal' or 'Dagon'.
To a footballer, 'our God' may be 'Pele'.
To a true Christian, 'My God' is refers to 'YHVH' (Thomas is not credible witness for anyone to to claim that he was calling Jesus God after Jesus revealed that they could see the Father through and in him. When anyone looks at my Son they can instantly see who his Father is, Me!)Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,16:26) To a true Christian, 'My God' is refers to 'YHVH' (Thomas is not credible witness for anyone to to claim that he was calling Jesus God after Jesus revealed that they could see the Father through and in him. When anyone looks at my Son they can instantly see who his Father is, Me!) HMMM!
I think I will go with Thomas witness and Jesus and John who did not rebuke him, as well as the ForeFathers who called Jesus their Lord and God!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ June 19 2010,08:26) Is1, Where in verse 8 is Jesus called 'God' with the 'definite' article?
Do you say that the 'word' 'O' is 'definite'?Also, how is Jesus immutable if he was spirit and then flesh and then spirit?
Also, 'Worship', the word is not 'Worship' but 'Obeisence'.
Only God is to be Worshipped', yes, you even said it yourself…only God…not Jesus, only God.
He who gave life to his Son, he must be worshipped.
The (Definite) Son cannot be The (definite) Father and only The (Definite) Father is God, God Almighty.But … ALL sentient creation of God Almighty … is 'a form of God' which we write as 'god' and 'gods' in lowercase.
Also, 'O God', is not refering to God Almighty but to 'a Mighty One', hero, one of great power… This does not necessarily refere to one God but to any aentient entity that qualifies depending on context.
'My God', 'Our God', 'Your God', indicates a reference to a personal 'God' of that person.
To a Philistine, 'Our God' would refer to 'Baal' or 'Dagon'.
To a footballer, 'our God' may be 'Pele'.
To a true Christian, 'My God' is refers to 'YHVH' (Thomas is not credible witness for anyone to to claim that he was calling Jesus God after Jesus revealed that they could see the Father through and in him. When anyone looks at my Son they can instantly see who his Father is, Me!)
This is all unsubstantiated assertions mixed with unintelligible gibberish. I think I'll follow your mandate and not reply.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,09:05) Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,16:26) To a true Christian, 'My God' is refers to 'YHVH' (Thomas is not credible witness for anyone to to claim that he was calling Jesus God after Jesus revealed that they could see the Father through and in him. When anyone looks at my Son they can instantly see who his Father is, Me!) HMMM!
I think I will go with Thomas witness and Jesus and John who did not rebuke him, as well as the ForeFathers who called Jesus their Lord and God!
WJ
Keith,It never ceases to amaze me how many explanations the Arians can come up with. Thomas clearly addressed Jesus Himself saying, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus told Thomas that he was “blessed” for his confession.
Where does that leave JA?
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,09:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,09:05) Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,16:26) To a true Christian, 'My God' is refers to 'YHVH' (Thomas is not credible witness for anyone to to claim that he was calling Jesus God after Jesus revealed that they could see the Father through and in him. When anyone looks at my Son they can instantly see who his Father is, Me!) HMMM!
I think I will go with Thomas witness and Jesus and John who did not rebuke him, as well as the ForeFathers who called Jesus their Lord and God!
WJ
Keith,It never ceases to amaze me how many explanations the Arians can come up with. Thomas clearly addressed Jesus Himself saying, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus told Thomas that he was “blessed” for his confession.
Where does that leave JA?
Jack
At the drawing board contemplating his next ludicrous explanation.Jack,
“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”
How is that blessing Thomas who had to see before he believed.
In fact, is it not a kick in the teeth.And Is1: No problem, thanks for the reminder.
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