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Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ June 08 2010,16:05) Your claiming that Adam was 'virgin born' has no Biblical basis either.
This is a bold face lie and you know it!WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2010,07:06) Hi KJ,
Another outbreak of backslapping for those who do not agree with your preterism.
But somehow very little truth emerged as the rom 1 quote was incomplete and an odd translation.
Preterism??? Who said anything about Preterism here?
KJ
Quote (Lightenup @ June 09 2010,07:06) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 08 2010,14:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2010,01:45) mikeboll64,June wrote:Can you understand that in every instance you give, someone who is not the firstborn (the one born first) is APPOINTED with the rights of the firstborn (the one born first). Jesus wasn't ever APPOINTED with firstborn rights because the real “firstborn of all creation” messed up. He has firstborn rights simply because he is the one born first.
MikeNot true!
Jesus is the Second Adam, the Lord from heaven, because the first Adam did mess up!
WJ
Keith,
Your reply is PERFECTION my brother! Jesus was appointed the firstborn because the literal firstborn of men (the first Adam) messed up!
ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!
btw, Paul explicitly said that Jesus was “born of the seed of David and decreed (appointed) to be the Son of God.” It was as the seed of David that Jesus was appointed the firstborn Son in the spiritual kingdom just as His father David was appointed God's firstborn son in the old covenant theocracy (Ps. 89).
Jack
Kathi said:Quote Roo,
Can you show us the passage where God designates the Son as the Firstborn specifically…Kathi,
The word “firstborn” means “eldest son” or “chief” (Strong's# 1060 Hebrew Concordance). Jesus was not the literal firstborn son of God.
Exodus 4:22: “Israel (Jacob) is my son, even my firstborn.”
Psalm 89:20, 26-27: 20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him….
26He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
David was appointed God's “firstborn” and consequently he said to God, “You are My Father“. Therefore, David was God's firstborn son.
Jesus was appointed to be God's firstborn son just as His father David.
Kathi:
Quote …or the passage that calls Adam the firstborn?
Come on! Adam was the son of God and therefore the firstborn of the human family. Adam was our representative but he messed up just as WJ has said. Christ was appointed the eldest son in Adam''s place.WJ gave it to Mikeboll but good!
the Roo
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2010,10:30) Hi KJ,
All in Christ are firstborn, as he is.
Nick,How do you help Kathi and her buddy Mikeboll?
KJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2010,10:40) Hi KJ,
You need more help.
You do not yet know God and His Son.
Nick,So you are judge now eh? I know my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
KJ
Hi KJ,
Your judge yourself publically and daily
Your confusion is expressed in your words.To fellowship with God and His Son you need to abide in scripture.[2Jn9]
There is no strange trinity god.WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote Jesus is the second Adam, so tell us how that does not fit with what I said? When did Jesus become the “Second Adam”?
Keith,Your rhetorical question in red is hard hitting. It's not gentleman like to hit a lady.
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ June 08 2010,15:40) Mike,
God and the Son are both the originator of the creation of God.
Hi Kathi,I think that God was the originator, Jesus was the master craftsman. Creation didn't happen because Jesus said, “I'm going to do this.” It happened because God said, “Let's do this, Son”. All things are FROM God – the originator. All things are THROUGH Jesus, the master craftsman. IMO
Btw, you go, girl! I've just read thru the thread and you are giving to WJ!
I'll have your back in a minute.peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2010,02:10) Mike Then why are you denying the best witness of the Forefathers and the evidence which is Ignatius?
The thing is why are you denying all ot the first and second century Fathers?
Here I will post it again and see if you will comment on them this time?
Ignatius the earliest of the Fathers who was appointed …….
Hi WJ,And a million words later, you have made your point. Unfortunately, you're arguing the wrong point. I don't really care how early trinitarians believed. I don't even care how Eusebius believed.
All I wanted from you and Jack was a simple acknowledgement that Eusebius came to his conclusion about Jesus' beginning using the exact same words that you claim don't mean “firstborn of all creation” and “only begotten”.
It is clear that since he thought that Jesus was begotten by the Father and therefore the firstborn of every creature BEFORE ALL THE AGES, he didn't read “monogenes” to mean “unique”, and he didn't read “prototokos pasa ktisis” to mean “emminent over mankind”, did he?
Let's see if you can be honest, WJ. Isn't it very clear from the Eusebius letter that YOU originally posted on HN that Eusebius truly took the word “monogenes” to mean “only begotten” and the words “prototokos pasa ktisis” to mean “firstborn of every creature”?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 09 2010,06:23) WorshippingJesus quoted:Quote
Much more is (this true of) the Word of God, who has actually received as His own peculiar designation the name of Son. But still the tree is not severed from the root, nor the river from the fountain, nor the ray from the sun; nor, indeed, is the Word separated from God.Keith,
Amen Bro! The ray cannot be separated from the sun.
Hi Roo,Don't you notice that all of the wording in WJ's quote distinguishes the Word as someone different from God? Look closely:
1. Word OF God
2. Tree (one thing) not severed from the root ( a different thing)
3. River (one thing) / Fountain (something different)
4. Ray (one thing) / Sun (SOURCE of the Ray)
5. Nor is the Word (one thing) separated from God (a different thing that the Word is not)You guys should look a little closer at what you post to “support” the trinity, because I get some of my best info AGAINST the trinity from stuff you post in support of it.
Notice the last line DOESN'T say “nor is the Word separated from the Father“. But in so much literature you post, it is clear that two are talked about, and ONE of the two is God. JA and I laugh about it alot, because you guys even say the same kind of stuff in your posts!
So, to sum up: A root is the source of the tree, a fountain (or spring) is the source of the river, the sun is the source of the ray, and God is the source of the Word.
peace and love,
mikeHi WJ, was just reading your quotes of Ignatius, back on page 19, but here they are in full not in part…
To the Ephesians
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus… being united and elected through the true passion by the will of God the Father, and of our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
But our Physician is the Only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” Being incorporeal, He was in the body, being impassible, He was in a passible body, being immortal, He was in a mortal body, being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts. (VII).
For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Ghost. For [it]says, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and He shall be called Immanuel.” He was born and was baptized by John, that He might ratify the institution committed to that prophet. (XVIII).
Jesus Christ, in His faith and in His love, in His suffering and in His resurrection. Especially if the Lord make known to me that ye come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David according to the flesh, being both the Son of man and the Son of God. (XX).
The faith of Jesus Christ, and in His love, in His passion, and in His resurrection. Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and “the first-born of every creature,” but of the seed of David according to the flesh. (XX).
To the Magnesians
The ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. (VI).
The ministry of Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end. (VI).
Do ye therefore all run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one.(VII).
Do ye all, as one man, run together into the temple of God, as unto one altar, to one Jesus Christ, the High Priest of the unbegotten God. (VII).
There is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word. (VIII).
There is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word. (VIII).
Fare ye well in the harmony of God, ye who have obtained the inseparable Spirit, who is Jesus Christ. (XV).
Fare ye well in harmony, ye who have obtained the inseparable Spirit, in Christ Jesus, by the will of God. (XV).
To the Romans
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God….I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father…abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour….I also salute in the name of Almighty God, and of Jesus Christ His Son… abundance of happiness unblameably, in God, even the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
“For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.” For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed [in His glory]. (III).
Oh wait theres more, (if you can get through it all..
(Ignatius) To the Smyrneans
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and of the beloved Jesus Christ.
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the most high Father and His beloved Son Jesus Christ.Over and over it says it so how could it say to one and to also the other if theyre the same being?
Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom…that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; was baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him; that He lived a life of holiness without sin, and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed [to the cross] for us in His flesh. (I).
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II)./
And that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things. And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (To the Tarsians, IV).
And that He Himself is not God over all, and the Father, but His Son, He says, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. And again, “When all things shall be subjected unto Him, then shall He also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” Wherefore it is One [God] who put all things under, and who is all in all, and another [His Son] to whom they were subdued, who also Himself, along with all other things, becomes subject [to the former]. (To the Tarsians, V; cf. 1 Cor 15:24-28).
How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me. (To the Tarsians, VI).
For Moses, the faithful servant of God, when he said, “The Lord thy God is one Lord,” and thus proclaimed that there was only one God, did also forthwith confess also our Lord [Jesus] when he said, “The Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord.” And again, “And God said, Let us make man after our image: and so God made man, after the image of God made He him.” And further “In the image of God made He man.” And that [the Son] was to be made man, he says, “A prophet shall the Lord [YAHWEH] raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me.” (To the Antiochians, II).
The prophets also, when they speak as in the person of God, [saying, ] “I am God, the first [of beings], and I am also the last, and besides Me there is no God,” concerning the Father of the universe, do also speak of our Lord Jesus Christ. “A Son,” they say, has been given to us, on whose shoulder the government is from above; and His name is called the Angel of great counsel, Wonderful, Counsellor, the strong and mighty God.” And concerning His incarnation, “Behold, a virgin shall be with Child, and shall bring forth a Son; and they shall call his name Immanuel. (To the Antiochians, III).
The Evangelists, too, when they declared that the one Father was the only true God, did not omit what concerned our Lord, but wrote: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.” And concerning the incarnation: “The Word,” says, “became flesh, and dwelt among us.” And again: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.” And those very apostles, who said “that there is one God,” said also that “there is one Mediator between God and men.” Nor were they ashamed of the incarnation and the passion. For what says “The man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself” for the life and salvation of the world. Whosoever, therefore, declares that there is but one God, only so as to take away the divinity of Christ, is a devil, and an enemy of all righteousness. He also that confesseth Christ, yet not as the Son of the Maker of the world, but of some other unknown being, different from Him whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil. And he that rejects the incarnation, and is ashamed of the cross for which I am in bonds, this man is antichrist. Moreover, he who affirms Christ to be a mere man is accursed, according to the prophet, since he puts not his trust in God, but in man. (To the Antiochians, IV-V).
May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through him who was begotten before time began. (To the Antiochians, XIV).
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to Hero, the deacon of Christ, and the servant of God, a man honoured by God, and most dearly loved as well as esteemed, who carries Christ and the Spirit within him, and who is mine own son in faith and love: Grace, mercy, and peace from Almighty God, and from Christ Jesus our Lord, His only-begotten Son. (To Hero).
May I have joy of thee, my dear son, whose guardian may He be who is the only unbegotten God, and the Lord Jesus Christ! (To Hero, IV).
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to her who has obtained mercy through the grace of the Most High God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Lord, who died for us. (To Maria at Neapolis, Near Zarbus).
As Paul admonished you. For if there is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, “of whom are all things; ” and one Lord Jesus Christ, our [Lord], “by whom are all things; ” and also one Holy Spirit…. For “there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is through all, and in all. (To the Philippians).
There is then One God and Father, and not two or three, One who is, and there is no other besides Him, the only true One. For “the Lord [YAHWEH] thy God,” saith, “is one Lord.” And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith, “who is in the bosom of the Father.” And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.” And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son's name, that we may know? ” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith, “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, but into three [persons] possessed of equal honour [one name]. (To the Philippians, II).
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 09 2010,06:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 09 2010,01:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2010,21:19)
Can you understand that in every instance you give, someone who is not the firstborn (the one born first) is APPOINTED with the rights of the firstborn (the one born first). Jesus wasn't ever APPOINTED with firstborn rights because the real “firstborn of all creation” messed up. He has firstborn rights simply because he is the one born first.
MikeNot true!
Jesus is the Second Adam, the Lord from heaven, because the first Adam did mess up!
WJ
Keith,
Your reply is PERFECTION my brother! Jesus was appointed the firstborn because the literal firstborn of men (the first Adam) messed up!
ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!
Jack
Hi WJ and cheerleader Roo,You would make a good point here if…
1. Adam was the only begotten son of God, and then messed up, so Jesus got the “title”.
2. Adam was the firstborn of ALL CREATION and then messed up, so Jesus got the “title”.
From you're trinitarian view, what you are saying is that equal God Almighty Jesus, who created Adam in the first place, came to earth and was tortured and crucified so he could inherit the “firstborn rights” of a human being. The former Almighty God NOW has the PRIVILEDGE of having the firstborn rights of a puny human? Wow! What a degrading experience for your God #2. No, that can't be it. Let's rethink this, boys.
Paul gave a clear explanation as to why Jesus had to have been the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Was any of the above true of Adam? Are these some of Adam's firstborn rights that Jesus inherited because Adam messed up?
And I'm curious…..was Jesus ALWAYS God the Son? Or was he at some point “God the Brother” or something else? Was there from infinity ALWAYS a God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?
peace and love,
mikeYou know I really have to laugh the way you all go on and on with those two, they will never agree with any of us at all. They are set in their ways and nobody will bring them to the truth….They remind me of our Children they too don't understand . It will have to be Christ Himself when He comes again as Rev. 19:16 says as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Only the truth will be taught then. Satan will be bound, and they will have to believe the truth or get the Lake of Fire….. it's as simple as that….. I am so done with them when they question if the Father had a beginning like Jesus. Done…… Irene
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