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@t8
For the Christians, there is one God the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ which together make up the one True God in His fullest sense as Jehovah the God of gods and the Lord of lords.you asked:
In the beginning was the Word.
Since when does eternity have a beginning
Eternity has an eternal beginning and in that beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The word ‘beginning’ is a relative term. The beginning of ‘something’ is what existed before that ‘something’ became a reality. The Beginning of the creation of God is what existed before the creation of God became a reality.
People who claim that Jesus was a created being are trying to tell us that a creation of God existed before anything was made that was made. Impossible!
@NickHassan
The Lord is the Spirit. We have one Lord, Jesus Christ.Hi LU,
WE have one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you not think the man was anointed?
Acts 10
In the beginning was the Word…..Exactly this is how you know this verse is not talking something outside of it’s context which was THE BEGINNING of the Gospel, this is not the SAME beginning as in Genesis.
You said “Time is relative as to who’s perspective you are referring to, man’s or God’s. The day the Son was begotten was a specific event which happened before creation. He existed before this event in a pre-begotten state.”
You are correct, however for a specific event to OCCUR in the context of time it cannot pre-exist time, therefore the meaning of Today I have begotten you cannot mean he was in any “pregotten” state, especially as a son because otherwise he would have ALWAYS been and not begotten at a specific event. Can you admit that what I am saying is correct?
Plus LU you keep assuming that the word Lord means divine so lets see:
1 Samuel 29:2
And the lords of the Philistines passed on by hundreds, and by thousands: but David and his men passed on in the rereward with Achish.So there you have it THOUSANDS of lords and you know why because lord just applies to who is in charge i.e. ruler/Master so here is the biggest thing Jesus stopped being the lord/master over his disciples….did you know that?
John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.Oh and one more thing: Jesus says John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.Jesus is the SERVANT of GOD….God is his LORD….Jesus does not know what his Lord doeth…He does not know when he is returning and he does not know who will be to his right or to his left as he does not have that authority. Don’t be ashamed that Jesus was a human Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.bodhitharta wrote:So “Today I have begotten you” means there was a point in time in which he was begotten, right?
Hi BD,
Yes, it means that YHVH has indeed begotten Jesus Christ, glad to
see you reject the teachings of islam on this important Theology!B’shem
YHVHThere is no need to reject the teachings of Islam as Islam explains the manner in which Jesus was caused to exist. God simply said pertaining to the conception of Christ Jesus “Be” and it was, Jesus is quite literally the WORD made flesh, no need for human intervention or intercourse, what a wonderful miracle and this is why God said “Today I have begotten you/become your Father” it shows that the term is one of High honor and yet it is a metaphor or an analogy just as, as many that are led by the spirit are sons of God and of course this is not literal just as when Jesus said
John 8:44-45King James Version (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Obviously these people are not literally children of the Devil except by way of Metaphor/Analogy and here is the way to see it:
John 8:41-43King James Version (KJV)
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Now you see the crux of the meaning of the word Jesus said it is their deeds and lack of love which causes him to call them children of the devil yet in their minds they call themselves children of God so if you can go from one to the other the meaning can only be condition based and therefore only symbolic. IN the most literal sense God CREATED Man including Jesus and even Adam was called son of God.
Hi BD,
Please no speeches, just answer “Yes” or “no”
“Begotten” means God has a son, right?[color=white]…[/color] (<– please answer )B’shem
YHVH@ NickHassan
Yes, I am part of the “we” since I believe that Jehovah is the one God, the Father and the one Lord, Jesus Christ.Before Jesus became the Messiah, He was not a man but a creator of man with His Father. When He became a man according to his flesh, He was anointed as the Messiah.
May God bless you with a fuller revelation of Himself, Nick.
@bodhitharta
you said:Plus LU you keep assuming that the word Lord means divine so lets see:
There is a reason for that 🙂
John 18:36
Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”Col 1
16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.Just for starters…
Bo
you said:Oh and one more thing: Jesus says John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.Jesus is the SERVANT of GOD….God is his LORD….Jesus does not know what his Lord doeth…He does not know when he is returning and he does not know who will be to his right or to his left as he does not have that authority. Don’t be ashamed that Jesus was a human Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.All you are pointing out is that Jehovah is not one but two and they communicate between themselves and they are not each other and one has authority over the other. This I have been saying all along as well as Christians all over the world.
Are you ashamed about the words that say Jesus shed His own blood for you since you deny that?
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Bo,
you said:In the beginning was the Word…..Exactly this is how you know this verse is not talking something outside of it’s context which was THE BEGINNING of the Gospel, this is not the SAME beginning as in Genesis.
It is the same beginning as in Genesis since the writer continues speaking about creation see the rest of the passage which follow John 1:1.
John1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
You said “Time is relative as to who’s perspective you are referring to, man’s or God’s. The day the Son was begotten was a specific event which happened before creation. He existed before this event in a pre-begotten state.”
You are correct, however for a specific event to OCCUR in the context of time it cannot pre-exist time, therefore the meaning of Today I have begotten you cannot mean he was in any “pregotten” state, especially as a son because otherwise he would have ALWAYS been and not begotten at a specific event. Can you admit that what I am saying is correct?
Eternity is a term that has the element of time, not temporal time, but eternal time. In heaven there is only day, no night just day, and that implies there is the existence of time in eternity…not temporal time like we have on earth but eternal time-one forever day.
Events happen during eternity, Bo. The day of the Son being begotten happened during the day of eternity and it coincided with the day that temporal time began since through the Son all things were made that were going to be made. There were other things that happened during eternity before creation.
For instance: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
You can see here that in talking about putting on a “new man” to reflect God not to be God.
Now you point out something very excellent with Ephesians 1:4 so lets expand on that:
Ephesians 1:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
You see how this points out a clear point? Predestination is not the same as eternity past it is about what “WILL” be done in the future.
1 Corinthians 2:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Again predestination is being talked about here not past existence but let us go back to your strongest verse of proof in Col 16, but first let me establish a basis here now i know in your case you call both he Father and The Son “GOD” in your understanding is the Father the “GOD” of Jesus? because to understand any of this we have to take note:
Col 3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you,
Now the reason why this has to be clear is because this points out a direction of understanding or a ranking in which it clearly states that Jesus HAS a “GOD” this is vital to understand because the statement is not saying WITH “God” it says we give thanks to “THE GOD and FATHER” Do you agree with this?
so moving on we see this:
Col 9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
10 and ye are in him made full, who is the head of all principality and authority,
Now this is saying that what is inside Jesus(Holy Spirit) is inside his believers(Holy Spirit)
Col 2 that their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the secret of the God and Father, and of the Christ,
Now lastly regarding time the scripture says
2 Corinthians 6:17-18Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
17 wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I — I will receive you,
18 and I will be to you for a Father, and ye — ye shall be to Me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.’
Hebrews 1:5-621st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 For unto which of the angels said God at any time, “Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee”? And again, “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 And again, when He bringeth in the First-Begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Now you said that the day was an eternal day, however it is a FUTURE day the scripture was referring too so that completely eliminates your idea of Eternity Past. i.e. “I Will…He Shall” not “I Am …He is”
@boditharta
I was pointing out that there were events that happened during eternity before creation.
For example:
God chosen…
God ordained…
The actions of choosing and ordaining took place before creation.
The action of begetting a Son took place before creation also, it had to in order for the Son to make creation.
Luke 1:3521st Century King James Version (KJ21)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that Holy Being who shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here again it is saying Jesus will be called the son of God, the angel did not say that this was the son of God you are pregnant with it is talking about a future time and now let me see your response to one more thing:
Luke 1:31-35New King James Version (NKJV)
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
You argument the whole time has been that the Father and son together make up the “Lord God” but here it clearly says it is the “Lord God” who will give Jesus(The son) the Kingdom. So if the son was given or will be given the throne of David it means 2 things A.He didn’t already have that throne and B. He cannot be referenced in the context of being the “Lord God” who had the authority to give Jesus the throne of David.
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