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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 31 2009,23:32) Hi Kat,
So do not get footripped by the pruveyors of trinity nonsense.
They just want to justify their following of men.Join the US of 1 cor 8
Hi NHNo, you are the follower of men, for you believe that Jesus is just a mere man.
You claim to have 2 masters when Jesus said a man can only serve one!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,14:16) Hi TT,
Now where was that?
If Jesus is your god then who is your Lord?[1Cor8]
Is he really his own son?
You dodged my question. The Father called His Son “God” and attributed creation to Him (Heb. 1:8-10). Do you believe the Father or not?thinker
Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 01 2009,11:25) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 30 2009,09:05) Phillipians 2 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
KJV
Thanks Bye
Also let us not forget these passages.Many scripture suggest Jesus was a man, and we believe that because we have proof.
Many scripture also suggests Jesus was God, but we cannot possibly prove that. It is an idea that must be taken with faith.
And why is it so hard to see that Jesus was both Man and God?
Hebrew 1:8 …. Your throne O God is forever and ever,
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of
Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated
Lawlessness.
Therefore God Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more then Your
Companions.
Here is the prove.
IreneQuote (katjo @ Sep. 01 2009,15:12) Nick- If to you the trinity means we believe in three Gods(which is not true) and you say their is only one God(which is true) does your bible quote; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A GOD?(thats more than one God) Rev. 8 in the King James tells us Jesus is the Almighty. 18:7 Jesus is Lord God Almighty. )13) His name is the word of God (16) He is king of king and Lord of Lords.
Exactly! Anti-trinitarians do not really care whether one believes in one god or in many gods. Just as long as one's theology diminishes Jesus they are happy. Example: Kathi believes in two Gods and the anti-trinitarians don't say anything. Kathi's polytheism is okay because Jesus is a lesser God.But trinitarians are raked over the coals because they exalt Jesus to the position that God has given Him.
thinker
Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 02 2009,03:17) Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 01 2009,11:25) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 30 2009,09:05) Phillipians 2 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
KJV
Thanks Bye
Also let us not forget these passages.Many scripture suggest Jesus was a man, and we believe that because we have proof.
Many scripture also suggests Jesus was God, but we cannot possibly prove that. It is an idea that must be taken with faith.
And why is it so hard to see that Jesus was both Man and God?
Hebrew 1:8 …. Your throne O God is forever and ever,
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of
Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated
Lawlessness.
Therefore God Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more then Your
Companions.
Here is the prove.
Irene
Irene,
You left out verse 10 where the Father said that Jesus is the Creator. Why?thinker
Thinker………..Wrong TRINITARIANS exalt Jesus to VERY GOD HIMSELF, Lets be honest here. But Jesus himself never did that. GOD was (IN) Jesus, as He can be (IN) ALL and work through ALL. BUT the does (NOT) make (ALL) GODS. The trinity breaks up the absolute ONENESS, of GOD the FATHER. WE are told we are not to have any other GOD besides HIM. No two or three anythings, Just ONE GOD in ALL and through ALL. IMO
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 02 2009,03:29) Thinker………..Wrong TRINITARIANS exalt Jesus to VERY GOD HIMSELF, Lets be honest here. But Jesus himself never did that. GOD was (IN) Jesus, as He can be (IN) ALL and work through ALL. BUT the does (NOT) make (ALL) GODS. The trinity breaks up the absolute ONENESS, of GOD the FATHER. WE are told we are not to have any other GOD besides HIM. No two or three anythings, Just ONE GOD in ALL and through ALL. IMO peace and love……………………….gene
Gene,
You're right that Jesus never exalted Himself. This proves His humility and not a supposed inferiority. The Father exalted Him and called Him “God” and attributed the whole creation to Him (Hebrews 1:8-10).If the Father is your God as you claim then you won't argue with Him. By arguing about with Him you reveal your disobedient heart.
thinker
Thinker……….And you reveal you lack of understanding, by saying Jesus CREATED everything, when GOD the FATHER of Jesus and us said HE (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) created everything. Along with many other Scriptures that say there is no other GOD but one GOD. Show me where GOD the FATHER that Jesus is another GOD. And if that were so then why did Jesus say the FATHER was(IN) HIM , why didn't He just HE WAS GOD ALMIGHTY the CREATED EVERYTHING, and WHY PRAY to This other if HE WAS HIM. Trinitarian logic falls apart in a thousand ways thinker, Come out of that foolish teaching while you can.
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 02 2009,04:01) Thinker……….And you reveal you lack of understanding, by saying Jesus CREATED everything, when GOD the FATHER of Jesus and us said HE (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF) created everything. Along with many other Scriptures that say there is no other GOD but one GOD. Show me where GOD the FATHER that Jesus is another GOD. And if that were so then why did Jesus say the FATHER was(IN) HIM , why didn't He just HE WAS GOD ALMIGHTY the CREATED EVERYTHING, and WHY PRAY to This other if HE WAS HIM. Trinitarian logic falls apart in a thousand ways thinker, Come out of that foolish teaching while you can. peace and love……………………..gene
Gene,
Then why don't you explain it to me. To the Son the Father said:Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.You said that the Father said that He alone is the creator. First, there is no such statement by the Father. Second, how could the Father say to the Son “You created?” You cannot appeal to old testament verses which say Jehovah created because there was no Father or Son when those statements were made. The titles “Father” and “Son” are new testament speak. As Father God says that the Son is the Creator. If the Father is your God as you claim then stop arguing about it.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 01 2009,11:21) Quote (katjo @ Sep. 01 2009,15:12) Nick- If to you the trinity means we believe in three Gods(which is not true) and you say their is only one God(which is true) does your bible quote; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A GOD?(thats more than one God) Rev. 8 in the King James tells us Jesus is the Almighty. 18:7 Jesus is Lord God Almighty. )13) His name is the word of God (16) He is king of king and Lord of Lords.
Exactly! Anti-trinitarians do not really care whether one believes in one god or in many gods. Just as long as one's theology diminishes Jesus they are happy. Example: Kathi believes in two Gods and the anti-trinitarians don't say anything. Kathi's polytheism is okay because Jesus is a lesser God.But trinitarians are raked over the coals because they exalt Jesus to the position that God has given Him.
thinker
If Jesus were the Most High God, He would not be in need of anyone giving Him His position. Think about it. Does anyone ever give the Father His position to Him?
? Is the Father ever given anything in regards to power and position or abilities??? I can't think of one thing. Is the Son ever given anything in regards to power and position or abilities? I can show you several.I do believe that Jesus is the begotten God however, just not the Most High God who brought Him forth in the beginning. Some credit Jesus as the Most High God but how can that be if He is NOT the source of so many things.
All these things were GIVEN to Jesus which means He was not the ultimate source of these things:
Authority
All things
All judgment
Works to accomplish
Those that will come to Him which He will raise up on the last day
The good works that He showed the Jews
A commandment as to what to say and what to speak
Authority over all flesh
The work, which the Father had given Him to do
The words “which You gave Me”
The Father ‘s name
The glory
The cup “which the Father has given me”You can find these things in these verses:
Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
NASU
John 3:35
35 “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
NASU
John 5:22
22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son
NASU
John 5:36
36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish — the very works that I do — testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
NASU
John 6:32-33
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
NASU
John 6:37-39
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
NASU
John 10:25-32
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
NASU
John 12:49-50
49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
NASU
John 13:3-4
3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God,
4 got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.
NASU
John 17:2-3
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
NASU
John 17:4
4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
NASU
John 17:7-8
7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
NASU
John 17:9-12
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
NASU
John 17:22-24
22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
NASU
John 18:11
11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”
NASUNever the less, we are to honor the Son as we honor the Father. I am happy to honor the Son…He is worthy!
God bless,
KathiGene said to thinker:
Quote …and WHY PRAY to This other if HE WAS HIM. Trinitarian logic falls apart in a thousand ways thinker, Come out of that foolish teaching while you can. Gene,
It is your theology that falls apart. Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father while the old covenant was still in effect. Under the new covenant we worship in the spirit and not in the letter. We may therefore pray to Christ also.Quote 1 John 5:13-15
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.The apostle John clearly taught that we may pray to the Son of God and that He will give us anything we ask if it be according to His will. The difference between Jesus' teaching about praying to the Father is that it was old covenant while John's teaching is new covenant.
Under the old covenant they were under a form of worship which was according to letter of the law. Under the new covenant we are under the spirit of the law and we can worship God in spirit. You tell me to come out of trinitarianism. But you need to come out of the old covenant.
thinker
Kathi said:
Quote If Jesus were the Most High God, He would not be in need of anyone giving Him His position. Think about it. Does anyone ever give the Father His position to Him?? Is the Father ever given anything in regards to power and position or abilities??? I can't think of one thing. Is the Son ever given anything in regards to power and position or abilities? I can show you several. The Most High God humbled Himself (Philippians 2) and was consequently exalted again. You knew this is how I would answer. You have not proven Christ's supposed inferiority. You have established His exemplary humility.
thinker
Lightenup said:
Quote If Jesus were the Most High God, He would not be in need of anyone giving Him His position. Think about it. Does anyone ever give the Father His position to Him? So you admit then that Jesus has been exalted having ALL authority and having been given a name that is above EVERY name and that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow and EVERY tongue confess His Lordship?
Do I understand you correctly?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 01 2009,12:48) Lightenup said: Quote If Jesus were the Most High God, He would not be in need of anyone giving Him His position. Think about it. Does anyone ever give the Father His position to Him? So you admit then that Jesus has been exalted having ALL authority and having been given a name that is above EVERY name and that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow and EVERY tongue confess His Lordship?
Do I understand you correctly?
thinker
Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
NASUHis name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.”
Unto the Lamb be praise, honor, dominion, and power and glory because the Father has exalted Him and He is worthy to be exalted above angels and men.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2009,05:02) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 01 2009,12:48) Lightenup said: Quote If Jesus were the Most High God, He would not be in need of anyone giving Him His position. Think about it. Does anyone ever give the Father His position to Him? So you admit then that Jesus has been exalted having ALL authority and having been given a name that is above EVERY name and that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow and EVERY tongue confess His Lordship?
Do I understand you correctly?
thinker
Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
NASUHis name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.”
Unto the Lamb be praise, honor, dominion, and power and glory because the Father has exalted Him and He is worthy to be exalted above angels and men.
Who said that Jesus' name was ABOVE the Father's? And you misrepresented Revelation 5. The Lamb is worshiped with the Father and not under the Father. At any rate, the self proclaimed “monotheists” here won't object to your brand of polytheism and your saying that the Lamb is to be worshiped so long as Jesus is “kept in His place.”thinker
Hi Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
you left out this important detail WJ,Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Why does it say, “TO the glory OF God the Father”? Because Jesus is a MAN who received ALL things FROM the Father. Jesus received his righteous character and his eternal life FROM the Father. We bow to Jesus to HONOR the Father! For when we bow to Jesus we are SUPPOSE to be giving recognition to the Father, admiring and acknowledging His great work in MAN!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 01 2009,14:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,05:56) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2009,13:02) His name is not above the Father's. It is above those “under heaven” that has been given among “men.
Again, you guys should include the whole council of God in your doctrines, rather than constantly trying to find ways to reduce Jesus to a lessor status than he is! IMOthat at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, “**IN HEAVEN** and on earth and under the earth“, Phil 2:10
Blessings WJ
you left out this important detail WJ,Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Why does it say, “TO the glory OF God the Father”? Because Jesus is a MAN who received ALL things FROM the Father. Jesus received his righteous character and his eternal life FROM the Father. We bow to Jesus to HONOR the Father! For when we bow to Jesus we are SUPPOSE to be giving recognition to the Father, admiring and acknowledging His great work in MAN!
Hi JodiAnd your point is?
The Father also glorified the Son!
WJ
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