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Quote (Gene @ Sep. 23 2009,03:26) Georg……..Man himself is in the image of the invisible GOD and is given power over creation as GOD said in Genesis. Check out the word (BY) in the Greek and pick what you want, it can mean (for) through or by . I believe it should be rendered (FOR) him , now why di i believe that it is because if you believe all things were created (BY) him the you have a whole host of Scriptures you must deal with that show that GOD (HIMSELF) created everything (BY) HIMSELF and NO ONE WAS WITH HIM, as Many scriptures say. So you can only believe the way you do by denying many scriptures the oppose this view. How do you reconcile that in you logic, by just ignoring those many scriptures? Rev. 3:14 ………..Confirms that Jesus is the First born in the (NEW) CREATION of GOD. Jesus is indeed a faithful witness and he is the Beginning of the (NEW) Creation of GOD. GOD said Behold (I) Create all things NEW. Jesus is the (FIRST BORN), of MANY Brethern as scripture says. He was the FIRST to be resurected from the dead and given eternal life. So He is the First born (FROM) the creation of GOD, into the (NEW) Creation (GOD) IS DOING.
Jesus' Glory was a preordained Glory from the foundations of the earth, (BUT) He was MANIFESTED (Brought into existence) IN OUR TIME, as Peter said. Just ask yourself what would be proved by having some preexisting demigod, or super being , which no where scripture speaks of, come and get inside the womb of Mary and come out as some sort of Disguised Human Being and then walk perfectly on earth, what would that have to do with US , How could we relate with such a being seeing He is really nothing like us and never truly was. NO George GOD Brought forth another Pure Human Being exactly like us in (EVERY WAY) without exception and perfected Him and raised Him to eternal life. Jesus is 100% human being without (ANY) exceptions and Had NO preexistence at all , except He was in the (PLAN) and FOREORDAINED WILL of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD> Jesus is the (FIRST) Perfected HUMAN BEING, He is the FIRST to BE BORN to eternal life of MANY BRETHREN> By taking away Jesus' true humanity you are disrespecting not only Jesus, but GOD the FATHER also. This teaching is Part of the TRINITARIAN LOGIC and is Just as Bad as the Trinity teachings.
To buy that teaching is you would have to throw out over a hundred scriptures in scripture the show differently, Many Jodi and I and Adam have brought out before. That were never answered by any Preexistences. GOD (ALONE) created ALL things by HIS Seven SPIRITS Which are before the THRONE OF GOD. They go two and fro through out (ALL) the earth, they are the very eyes and powers of what we call GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene…………………………..gene
Again I disagree because in Gensis it says ” Let us make man in our image.” That is 2 not 1.
Also you are adding to Scripture in Rev . 3:14 when you say that it is the New Creation of God. That is not what it says. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation and in Col, 1:18 He is the firstborn of the dead. Here you could say the New creation, but I will only say what it really says in Scriptures. You should never add to Scriptures like you just did. I ask you why? Can you not admit that you could be wrong? And what other Scriptures are you talking about?
And by Jesus own words in John 17:5. So you also going to ignore His words, and call it what? No my friend you are so wrong.
Peace and Love IreneIrene………..Here is what GOD said. I (ALONE) and BY MYSELF CREATED the HEAVENS and EARTH and ALL the things in it. YOU CAN FIND that In Isaiah's Writings, GOD also said there in (NO) GOD except HIM. There are so many scriptures the back that up it would take 3 or 4 pages of Posts to write them, But I as well as Jodi and I have posted (MANY) of them Before. And do you see the word Jesus, where it say (US) in Genesis, i don't so it is you who is not quoting scripture correctly and adding you interpretations to scripture, right? YOu must come out of (ALL) the false teachings of the apostate Church. Try to see Jesus as our brother with no difference between Him and US , He is from Man KIND just as we are and absolutely (NO) difference between Him and Us , what God did in Jesus He can also do in Us because we are of the same Kind , Mankind. Remember it says until we come unto the (FULL) measure of Christ, not half or a third measure, but the (FULL) measure. If you don't see Jesus as one of US our brother you simply don't see Jesus. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene
Gene said:
Quote Here is what GOD said. I (ALONE) and BY MYSELF CREATED the HEAVENS and EARTH and ALL the things in it. YOU CAN FIND that In Isaiah's Writings, Gene,
The Father applied Psalm 102 to the Son,Hebrews 1:8-10 (King James Version):
But TO THE SON he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, THOU LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of THINE HANDS“
Since the Father applied Psalm 102 to the Son then the Son is the God who said “I alone have created.” Go to Isaiah 48:12-16 where the Creator said that He was sent by Jehovah. Did yo get that? The one who said “I created” was sent by Jehovah.
Repent my friend!
thinker
Hello TT,
I went and looked up Isaiah 48, and read it from beginning to end, trying to put YHWH as the narrator.It appears that YHWH is the Narrator of the beginning, and Jesus doesn't appear until Verse 14.
That is where YHWH declares his love for Jesus and that he called and brought him to the people.
Then Jesus takes over saying he was sent by YHWH.
So in verse 13, when he said he created the heavens and the earth…That was YHWH speaking, not Jesus.
Altho I am for trinitarianism, I cannot agree on misinterpretation of bible scripture, no matter how much I'd like it to be true.
But mind you all, there are other verses where Jesus was credited with creation, even tho this one isn't one of them.
Also let me point on thing about TT's post.
Even tho Jesus doesn't come into play by verse 14…
Isaiah is an Old Testament Book….thousands of years before Jesus appeared on earth.
So how does he have a voice in the OT?
Well in the manner it was written, there was no transition of speakers…it is as if,
God was speaking about what he will do….
Then pointed out someone addressed as “him”And then God assumes the identity of “him” and talks about himself in the 3rd person.
Here's how it reads to me…
“I am God, I will do all these things, who among the angels and man can declare what I declare?I love my Son, in which he will do his pleasure on babylon…I have called and brought him and he shall make his way prosperous…I have not spoken in secret from the beginning…from the time it was, there I am, and Now I The Father and My Spirit have sent Me”
This is how the chapter reads to me, seeing as how in the OT the person writing this couldn't have had foreknowledge of The Messiah the way we know him.
The writer didn't transition The Speaker from The Father to The Son…and when it is The Son speaking…he only gets a verse or 2 and it goes right back to The Father speaking.
This is very wierd in literature, unless it emphasizes that The Narrator is YHWH from beginning to end…and if that is so…
well, you guys get the point.
Rockkman………..all writing can take on some type of different meaning if we are Predisposed to that idea. But to turn scripture to mean what we want it to when it does not specifically say it is a supposition at best. Not where does scripture say that Jesus is GOD and no where does it specifically say Jesus the (BEING) preexisted His berth on earth, These are just Part of the Lies fostered by the apostate Churches. To see Jesus as anything other than a Human being born into existence at the time of his berth by Mary is pure speculation at best. Forcing the texts to say what it does not specifically say is what caused all this confusion in the first place. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 22 2009,13:11) Hello TT,
I went and looked up Isaiah 48, and read it from beginning to end, trying to put YHWH as the narrator.It appears that YHWH is the Narrator of the beginning, and Jesus doesn't appear until Verse 14.
That is where YHWH declares his love for Jesus and that he called and brought him to the people.
Then Jesus takes over saying he was sent by YHWH.
So in verse 13, when he said he created the heavens and the earth…That was YHWH speaking, not Jesus.
Altho I am for trinitarianism, I cannot agree on misinterpretation of bible scripture, no matter how much I'd like it to be true.
But mind you all, there are other verses where Jesus was credited with creation, even tho this one isn't one of them.
RMYou need to read Hebrews chapter 1 closely. Jack is right about verse 10 being Jesus.
The entire Narrative of Hebrews 1 is about Jesus. The author is elevating Jesus as being YHWH.
Here is a good exegisis on Hebrews 1:10…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2009,05:37) Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 22 2009,13:11) Hello TT,
I went and looked up Isaiah 48, and read it from beginning to end, trying to put YHWH as the narrator.It appears that YHWH is the Narrator of the beginning, and Jesus doesn't appear until Verse 14.
That is where YHWH declares his love for Jesus and that he called and brought him to the people.
Then Jesus takes over saying he was sent by YHWH.
So in verse 13, when he said he created the heavens and the earth…That was YHWH speaking, not Jesus.
Altho I am for trinitarianism, I cannot agree on misinterpretation of bible scripture, no matter how much I'd like it to be true.
But mind you all, there are other verses where Jesus was credited with creation, even tho this one isn't one of them.
RMYou need to read Hebrews chapter 1 closely. Jack is right about verse 10 being Jesus.
The entire Narrative of Hebrews 1 is about Jesus. The author is elevating Jesus as being YHWH.
Here is a good exegisis on Hebrews 1:10…
WJ, I was referencing Hebrews I was talking about Isaiah 48…The Narrator from beginning to end is YHWH not Jesus. Jesus doesn't come into play until YHWH glorifies him in verse 14.
Then 15 and 16 assumes it is now Jesus narrating without any kinda transition from YHW to Jesus…so even tho the chapter doesn't accredit creation to Jesus…it strongly implies YHWH and Jesus are one in the same.
Thinker………..Obviously it is GOD (IN) HIM via (the seven spirits of God) with power, subjecting the world to Him as well as His enemies. AS it says, The LORD (GOD) Said unto MY Lord (JESUS) sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your foot stool. Looks like the FATHER is doing all the work right, Notice it say UNTIL (I) GOD, MAKE YOUR ENEMIES (YOUR) FOOTSTOOL. Once you come to grips with the fact that GOD can and does COHABIT IN HIS CREATION. YOU can easily understand this. So if GOD said thy kingdom “O” GOD is an everlasting Kingdom then he was referencing His presents in Jesus and Not Jesus Himself because Jesus turns over that Kingdom Back to GOD that GAVE it , at the end of the thousand year period. So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands. IMO
peace gene
Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 22 2009,13:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2009,05:37) Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 22 2009,13:11) Hello TT,
I went and looked up Isaiah 48, and read it from beginning to end, trying to put YHWH as the narrator.It appears that YHWH is the Narrator of the beginning, and Jesus doesn't appear until Verse 14.
That is where YHWH declares his love for Jesus and that he called and brought him to the people.
Then Jesus takes over saying he was sent by YHWH.
So in verse 13, when he said he created the heavens and the earth…That was YHWH speaking, not Jesus.
Altho I am for trinitarianism, I cannot agree on misinterpretation of bible scripture, no matter how much I'd like it to be true.
But mind you all, there are other verses where Jesus was credited with creation, even tho this one isn't one of them.
RMYou need to read Hebrews chapter 1 closely. Jack is right about verse 10 being Jesus.
The entire Narrative of Hebrews 1 is about Jesus. The author is elevating Jesus as being YHWH.
Here is a good exegisis on Hebrews 1:10…
WJ, I was referencing Hebrews I was talking about Isaiah 48…The Narrator from beginning to end is YHWH not Jesus. Jesus doesn't come into play until YHWH glorifies him in verse 14.
Then 15 and 16 assumes it is now Jesus narrating without any kinda transition from YHW to Jesus…so even tho the chapter doesn't accredit creation to Jesus…it strongly implies YHWH and Jesus are one in the same.
RMThe Hebrew writer is quoting Pss 102 which is speaking of YHWH and is ascribing those passages to Jesus in Heb 1:8-12.
Very often you will see a NT writer do this!
Jesus, which means “YWHW is salvation”, is YHWH, God with us.
The name “YHWH” is not exclusive to the Father just as the title “God” (theos) or Lord (Kurious) is not exclusive to the Father or the Son.
For as you say they are one being!
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 23 2009,05:47) Thinker………..Obviously it is GOD (IN) HIM via (the seven spirits of God) with power, subjecting the world to Him as well as His enemies. AS it says, The LORD (GOD) Said unto MY Lord (JESUS) sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your foot stool. Looks like the FATHER is doing all the work right, Notice it say UNTIL (I) GOD, MAKE YOUR ENEMIES (YOUR) FOOTSTOOL. Once you come to grips with the fact that GOD can and does COHABIT IN HIS CREATION. YOU can easily understand this. So if GOD said thy kingdom “O” GOD is an everlasting Kingdom then he was referencing His presents in Jesus and Not Jesus Himself because Jesus turns over that Kingdom Back to GOD that GAVE it , at the end of the thousand year period. So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands. IMO peace gene
Because Jesus is God =PIs The Father a liar when he said to Jesus your kingdom will have no end?
So accordingly to your own logic, I hope you now see….Jesus is God =P AMEN
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,13:47) Thinker………..Obviously it is GOD (IN) HIM via (the seven spirits of God) with power, subjecting the world to Him as well as His enemies. AS it says, The LORD (GOD) Said unto MY Lord (JESUS) sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your foot stool. Looks like the FATHER is doing all the work right, Notice it say UNTIL (I) GOD, MAKE YOUR ENEMIES (YOUR) FOOTSTOOL. Once you come to grips with the fact that GOD can and does COHABIT IN HIS CREATION. YOU can easily understand this. So if GOD said thy kingdom “O” GOD is an everlasting Kingdom then he was referencing His presents in Jesus and Not Jesus Himself because Jesus turns over that Kingdom Back to GOD that GAVE it , at the end of the thousand year period. So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands. IMO
peace gene
GeneQuote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,13:47) So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands.
That is the question you have to answer.For the scriptures say that is what will happen, yet we know that at that time God will be all in all.
Jesus is currently the mediator of the New Covenant and is playing his role as the high priest.
But when all things are made new and every enemy shall be under his “Jesus” feet and the last enemy is destroyed by “Jesus”, which is death, then there will no longer be a need of a mediator but Jesus will with the Father in the throne ruling and reigning with the Spirit that proceeds from them both, and God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will be all in all!
WJ
Rokkaman said:
Quote Hello TT,
I went and looked up Isaiah 48, and read it from beginning to end, trying to put YHWH as the narrator.It appears that YHWH is the Narrator of the beginning, and Jesus doesn't appear until Verse 14.
That is where YHWH declares his love for Jesus and that he called and brought him to the people.
Then Jesus takes over saying he was sent by YHWH.
So in verse 13, when he said he created the heavens and the earth…That was YHWH speaking, not Jesus.
Altho I am for trinitarianism, I cannot agree on misinterpretation of bible scripture, no matter how much I'd like it to be true.
But mind you all, there are other verses where Jesus was credited with creation, even tho this one isn't one of them.
RM,
Read Isaiah 48 again. The one who is speaking in Isaiah 48 consistently refers to YHWH in the THIRD person. So you are mistaken in saying that YHWH is speaking throughout the chapter. The one who said “My mouth” in verse 3 calls Himself the Creator in verse 12. The Creator then said that He is sent by “The Lord God and His Spirit.” So the Creator is to be distinguished from YHWH because He refers to YHWH in the THIRD person and then says that He is sent by Him.The Father attributed the creation to the Son in Hebrews 1:8-10. Therefore, it is the Son speaking in Isaiah 48.
thinker
Hi TT,
You love confusion because it offers you hope your dogmas may have some scriptural support.
Your misunderstandings are no proof of your catholic dogmas.
Seek truth and not self justification.Thinker………..Obviously it is GOD (IN) HIM via (the seven spirits of God) with power, subjecting the world to Him as well as His enemies. AS it says, The LORD (GOD) Said unto MY Lord (JESUS) sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your foot stool. Looks like the FATHER is doing all the work right, Notice it say UNTIL (I) GOD, MAKE YOUR ENEMIES (YOUR) FOOTSTOOL. Once you come to grips with the fact that GOD can and does COHABIT IN HIS CREATION. YOU can easily understand this. So if GOD said thy kingdom “O” GOD is an everlasting Kingdom then he was referencing His presents in Jesus and Not Jesus Himself because Jesus turns over that Kingdom Back to GOD that GAVE it , at the end of the thousand year period. So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands. IMO
peace gene
WJ………that is simple, you are right at that time GOD will be in all and through All, but when Jesus comes GOD will be (IN) Jesus by virtue of the seven Spirits of GOD with the POWER of GOD also. But at the end He (Jesus) turns it back to GOD and then as you say GOD will be in (ALL) and through (ALL)> In fact GOD is now in all who Have His spirit of truth in them . The hard part it seems is for people to realize (HOW) GOD can have His Being (IN) a Person. Remember Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM This same FATHER GOD is (IN) ALL His Children. Didn't Jesus say that?, Father that they may be in Us and we in them, if we have GOD in us we also Have Jesus in Us to and we have each other in Us in fact (ALL) who Have GOD'S Spirit are in each other by virtue of that (ONE) SPIRIT of GOD. While we may not have all of the Spirits and Powers of GOD was Have some of them (IN) Us. Jesus Has the (FULL) Measure of the Spirits in HIM Now as depicted in REVELATIONS. (the slain lamb with the seven eyes (spirits) of God ready to return to earth with power) . But it is GOD (IN) Him doing HIS Work establishing HIS (GODS) Kingdom. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 23 2009,06:35) Thinker………..Obviously it is GOD (IN) HIM via (the seven spirits of God) with power, subjecting the world to Him as well as His enemies. AS it says, The LORD (GOD) Said unto MY Lord (JESUS) sit on my right side until (I) make your enemies your foot stool. Looks like the FATHER is doing all the work right, Notice it say UNTIL (I) GOD, MAKE YOUR ENEMIES (YOUR) FOOTSTOOL. Once you come to grips with the fact that GOD can and does COHABIT IN HIS CREATION. YOU can easily understand this. So if GOD said thy kingdom “O” GOD is an everlasting Kingdom then he was referencing His presents in Jesus and Not Jesus Himself because Jesus turns over that Kingdom Back to GOD that GAVE it , at the end of the thousand year period. So how could Jesus' kingdom be for ever if he gives it back and becomes subject to the one who put all things into his hands. IMO peace gene
Gene,
Nonsense!thinker
Thinker……….I would expect nothing else from a deluded TRINITARIAN MIND. As I told you before come (completely) out of Her or you will recieve of Her (Whore Church's) Plagues. There are three very important things you must come out of 1, the TRINITY, 2 the PREEXISTENCE OF JESUS, 3 THE DOCTRINES OF DEVILS AND DEMONS . Then you should begin to see clearly. Some have, very few though.
But all in their time, it also says.
peace and love……………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,14:53) WJ………that is simple, you are right at that time GOD will be in all and through All, but when Jesus comes GOD will be (IN) Jesus by virtue of the seven Spirits of GOD with the POWER of GOD also. But at the end He (Jesus) turns it back to GOD and then as you say GOD will be in (ALL) and through (ALL)> In fact GOD is now in all who Have His spirit of truth in them . The hard part it seems is for people to realize (HOW) GOD can have His Being (IN) a Person. Remember Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM This same FATHER GOD is (IN) ALL His Children. Didn't Jesus say that?, Father that they may be in Us and we in them, if we have GOD in us we also Have Jesus in Us to and we have each other in Us in fact (ALL) who Have GOD'S Spirit are in each other by virtue of that (ONE) SPIRIT of GOD. While we may not have all of the Spirits and Powers of GOD was Have some of them (IN) Us. Jesus Has the (FULL) Measure of the Spirits in HIM Now as depicted in REVELATIONS. (the slain lamb with the seven eyes (spirits) of God ready to return to earth with power) . But it is GOD (IN) Him doing HIS Work establishing HIS (GODS) Kingdom. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
GeneNone of your post even addresses my post!
You keep quoting this scripture without understanding.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, “having seven horns and seven eyes“, WHICH ARE the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
The Spirits are Jesus very own eyes which are watching and moving as they are sent forth into the earth, and the seven horns is speaking of his limitless power that is one with the seven Spirits.
So the lamb cannot be dead, because the “Eyes” are alive and moving in power!
WJ
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