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Quote KJ is the ONLY authorized english version. That's odd, the apostles didn't use it. Nor did Jesus. hmmmm.
Oh, that's right. The KJ came 1500 years later.
Quote The truth is not found in multiple composites of bibles…there can only be 1 truth…you don't build a statistic saying 60% of Bible's say HE therefore HE is truth….
Agreed, but we should realize and not close our eyes to the fact that the KJ decided to follow one manuscript that said “God” whereas many other manusripts existed that said “he.”If the manuscripts are not God inspired, then why do you think the KJ that copied them is?
Quote There is only 1 truth, debate out of the KJ or go to the original Hebrew Bible…but don't try to back yourself up with other bibles.
Go to the manuscripts themselves.Mostly, if you look, what I'm trying to back myself up with is other scriptures (from the KJ if you like) that can shed some light on how that verse should be translated. If the translation of that verse doesn't fit with how other verses in the KJ present fact, then they made a mistake. And yes, all humans are imperfect and can make mistakes.
If you only believe the KJ and believe everything it says, then what of Ps 83:18.
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Question: Was it a mistake of the KJ to include “Jehovah” in this verse?
Or, was it a mistake to exclude it the other 7000 times?What do you think?
Rokka Man, I know you won't answer that last question, and it will hurt your brain.
Here is another:
The 1611 edition had, “Then cometh Judas” at Matthew 26:36, today's KJV has “Then cometh Jesus”. How could it have been wrong the first time? If it is never wrong, why all the revisions?
In fact,
In 1851 the American Bible Society compared six different editions of the King James Bible and discovered over 24,000 variations between the editions of the same Bible translation! How could there be an inerrant King James Bible when even the different editions of the King James Bible had ten's of thousands of variant readings!?To All……….without the Spirit of GOD guiding your understanding you can not understand the Truth of GOD. Because they are spiritually discerned. IMO
peace and love to all………………………….gene
Quote (david @ Aug. 30 2009,11:30) Rokka Man, I know you won't answer that last question, and it will hurt your brain. Here is another:
The 1611 edition had, “Then cometh Judas” at Matthew 26:36, today's KJV has “Then cometh Jesus”. How could it have been wrong the first time? If it is never wrong, why all the revisions?
In fact,
In 1851 the American Bible Society compared six different editions of the King James Bible and discovered over 24,000 variations between the editions of the same Bible translation! How could there be an inerrant King James Bible when even the different editions of the King James Bible had ten's of thousands of variant readings!?
Wow was your first sentence a personal attack on my intelligence? You're really doing the work of God there buddy!First of, you have not cited or paraphased any of your statistical information…
Do you know 93% of all statistics are made up on the spot? lol
Anyways the point i'm trying to make is this.
If we need to run to translation error to avoid the obvious truth, then there is no point in debating this subject using translated bibles…we both need to learn hebrew, and debate based on the original text.
Lastly, that is not the only place where we hear Jesus is called God, or God has been made flesh….Many other places refer Jesus as GOD…his own apostles call him God.
Now when we say he's God, we do not say he is God The Father…he is God The Son…which to me means…
He originally started out as a function of God (His Word).
Just like my arm is a function of myself.
God's voice/word was given an identity and was labeled The Son….
Why?
Well when God said, Let There Be
I believe those exact words, are Jesus's pre-existance.
Now internally these words always resided in God eternally…but once uttered, began the birth of creation.
So if these words or The Word…was Jesus Christ himself. And Jesus always eternally resided in the Lord…then coming from God, then being manifested as a Son…would still keep him as God compared to creation.
This means….
BECAUSE JESUS ETERNALLY HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH THE FATHER.
Jesus is equally God in essence because he is a function of God….IE his word manifested as a Son, then as a man.
This is my logical understanding of scripture when I see Jesus' Identity come into question all over the bible.
And regardless what bible you read, every last one that holds any merit, has a Jesus divinity claim….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,12:31) Hi R,
So he was not the God he was with.
He was not another god.Perhaps he is the Son of God?
No Jesus is The God he was with, he just isn't God The Father.Pretend my name is John.
What you are asking me is like saying,
So your skin is not you?
No, my skin is not ME, but my skin is a part of me…so in essence we are together a HUMAN.
Jesus is not God The Father, he comes from The Father…and is a part of The Father…and together they are One God. Just like my skin and myself are one Human.
And no Jesus is not skin, he is The Father's Word.
Quote Wow was your first sentence a personal attack on my intelligence? You're really doing the work of God there buddy! Rokkaman,
I did not mean to insult your intelligence. I meant that it would hurt your brain the same way a paradox hurts someone's brain. And guess what, you didn't answer it, just as I predicted. You can't answer it. It's unanswerable, (for you) like most paradoxes.
But the reason you can't answer it and the reason it hurts your brain to think about, is that the answer will show and does show and has already shown your obvious error which your brain is unwilling to see.
Quote Question: Was it a mistake of the KJ to include “Jehovah” in this verse?
Or, was it a mistake to exclude it the other 7000 times?You see, in asking this, I've proven that the KJ is either wrong, or the manuscripts that they used were wrong.
And that puts you in a tough position. All you can do is ignore it and hope it fades from your memory.
You also tried to divert and sidetrack.Here is how our conversation went.
You: The KJ translates it this way and the KJ is infallible.
Me: Other Bibles translate it differently.
You: But the KJ translates it this way and the KJ is infallible.
Me: If the KJ is infallible, then did it make a mistake in including “Jehovah” or did it make 7000 mistakes when it excluded that name the other 7000 times?
You: “If we need to run to translation error to avoid the obvious truth, then there is no point in debating this subject using translated bibles…we both need to learn hebrew, and debate based on the original text.”Your last statement of course was a fallacy. It is you who are avoiding the obvious truth, and we have absolute unquestionable PROOF of this: You refused to answer the question that I said would hurt your brain.
Don't you wonder what people will think, because you refused to answer it? So I ask it again:
Quote If you only believe the KJ and believe everything it says, then what of Ps 83:18. That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Question: Was it a mistake of the KJ to include “Jehovah” in this verse?
Or, was it a mistake to exclude it the other 7000 times?What do you think?
As I said before, I knew you would not answer it. And I'm fairly confident you will not answer it again. For, you cannot.
david
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 30 2009,10:35) Hi R,
God was in Him.[2Cor5]
And this disproves that Jesus is God how….?thinker
thinker………..Having GOD in YOU does (NOT) make you that GOD, Lest you be a thief and try to steal HIS glory and apply it to yourself. Something Jesus never did. He gave Glory to who glory was due. “The FATHER in ME HE Does the WORKS”.
peace and love……………………..gene
2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Acts 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
So much info in the above passage. First we see that it is the Father who did in FACT CREATE the heavens and the earth, we also know from other passages that He did it FOR and through His foreknowledge of Jesus of Nazareth. We also see that it is through the Father that we live, move and have our being and we are known as His offspring. We are shown that Divine Nature comes from the Father,and that Jesus is the MAN of whom the Father ordained and gave assurance through raising him from the dead.
Clearly Jesus was a partaker of divine nature, and we also are told by a promise from the Father that we too will be partakers of the Father's divine nature.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Jesus was a MAN of whom God manifested Himself into, or rather gave His divine nature to. This does not make Jesus God, it makes him a man who has partaken of the Father’s divine nature. The Father’s divine nature, is represented as righteous character. Humans need the righteous characteristics of the Father IN them in order to be partaker’s of His kingdom. We do not reach godliness on our own. Following the law never worked to bring man to righteousness, it did the opposite, it proved that man can do nothing of himself. What we need is the Spirit of God IN us, we need God’s Character traits IN us, in order to become righteous. Jesus was GIVEN this divine nature, and we are promised it as well.
If you know that the word became flesh was Jesus- THAN, whats it mean the word was GOD! ( Hmm)
Our pastor just preached on the bible last week and He told us that the NIV was o.k. but when He gets into His deeper study He would rather use the King James. And He also said: (on the King James) that He could take you back as far as the Dead Sea scrolls and show you that the king James fits so close word for word it's not even funny.
If your wondering why it says “was God “and everyone says”is god” are you saying you think He was at one time? He never changes. was ,is, and always will be. His word never changes. I hope you know Jesus is where our Salvation comes from. He is Lord. I think you replace the word “Lord” with “Jehovah”. REV. 21:7 He will be our God and we will be his son.(Is speaking of Jesus) read 6 too!Rev. 22:13 Jesus's words; I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, first and last.
He was there in the beginning. And all things were made by Him. (john 1:2,3) God is spirit who came to the earth in the flesh (john1:14) to pay for our sins. The bible tells us he had to fulfill the scriptures. Psalms 144:10 it is he that giveth salvation unto kings; who deliverth David his servant from the hurtful sword. (15) Happy is that people, that is in such a case; yea, happy is that people, whose GOD IS THE LORD. 145:14 The Lord upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down. 146;5 Happy is he that has the God of Jacob for his help, whose help is in the Lord his God. (6) which made heaven, and earth. 149:4 For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people; he will beautify the meek with salvation. 41;17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. (Just a few more than I will move to the new testament) 43;3 For I am the Lord thy God the holy one of Isreal, thy Saviour. (11) I even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no Saviour,(12) says ; the Lord says I am God. 45;18 For thus said the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it. Wait!! This is the old testament . Doesn’t Col.1;16 tell us all things was created by Jesus? Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born,unto us a son is given ;and the government shall be upon his shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.( why would he be called everlasting father) he is even call Emmanuel ( God with us). But in Rev. He is called the ALMIGHTY! Isaiah 45;23 says the Lord says there is no God besides him. A just God and a Saviour. (23) that every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Doesn’t the new testament say every knee will bow to Jesus? And if we know Jesus laid down His life for us than why does 1John 3;16 say; the Love of God that laid down his life for us? Deuteronomy 10;17 the Lord your God is God of all Gods and Lord of all Lords. (20) Make your promises in his name he is the one you should praise He is your God. I think people should really pay attention to these verses when denying the trinity. Because Jesus tells you Himself that he is the Almighty. (in verse 8) Rev1:6 (Jesus) And hath made us Kings and priests “unto God and His Father”.(whats this mean) To Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
(7) Behold He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him, all kindreds of earth shall wail because of Him.
(8) (Jesus) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY!
Rev. 14:7 says: fear God and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment has come:
(Jesus is going to judge us but here it is saying God’s judgment) and worship Him that made the heaven, and earth. And the sea, and the fountains of waters.(Remember Col. 1:16 tells us by Jesus were all things created in heaven and in earth. By Him and for Him)
Rev. 15:3, And they sang a knew song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty: just and true are thy ways: thou King of saints.(4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify the name? For thou only art Holy; For all nations will come and worship before thee: for thy judgments are made manifest. (16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou has judged thus.(this is about Jesus) (6) They have shed blood of prophets, and thou has given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.(7) This is also speaking of Jesus) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments . And (14) tells us: for they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of GOD ALMIGHTY. (15) Jesus says: Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Than Rev. 19:1 tells us of many people in Heaven saying, AL-le-lu-la: Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God (remember 7) just told us Jesus was Lord God Almighty, He is who judges us) (2) says for true and righteous are His judgments, but these verses are calling Jesus: “Lord our God and God Almighty” 19:11 tells us :Heaven opened and behold a white horse: and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True (Jesus) and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. (12) tell us He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself. (13) And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD!!(Jesus) (16) He hath on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19: 9 tells us: blessed are he they that are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb than go to verse 17: Come and gather yourselfs together unto the supper of the Great God .(Hmmm) Rev 20:4 says:and I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word Of God. (Remember 19:13 tells us Jesus name is called The word Of God) Tha Rev21:5 says: And he that sat upon the throne said, behold I make all things new. And he said unto me, write: for these words are true and faithful(19;11Jesus is called faithful and true) (21:6) JESUS SAYS; I am the Alpha and Omega The beginning and thee end (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I WILL BE HIS GOD and He shall be my son.
Than if we go to Revelation 22:3 It says; and there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: and His servants shall serve Him ( who’s servants does that mean the Lambs or Gods? It says “His and Him”. Is this saying they are one?) (4) and they shall see His face (Jesus) and His name shall be in their forheads (5) says the Lord God giveth them light. (7) jesus says: Behold I come quickly: Blessed is he that keepth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (14)I am th Alpha and omega, The beginning and the end, the first and the last. How can anyone look over all this? All these scriptures tell you they are one! What a awesome GOD! I would never believe any different. I have just showed you scripture that shows you he is AlMIGHTY GOD.
1john 5;7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. So how can you say all this means something different? How can you deny all this?Nick, I did not say that at all. You are literally looking over what the scripture says, and trying any thing to twist it around. I think you are confusung your own self!
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