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Mike,
I am trying to consolidate opinions in one place, so if you don't mind I'd like to address my foundation in one thread and I would like to discuss them with you one point at a time, ok? When you have time you can post your findings, and if you agree or disagree please show the scripture.
#1 Elohim is the one who created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
#2 Elohim's image is male and female, Gen 1:27.
#3 Spirit Elohim is the female “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 1:2
#4 YHWH Elohim is the male “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 2:4
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 09 2010,04:19) Mike, I am trying to consolidate opinions in one place, so if you don't mind I'd like to address my foundation in one thread and I would like to discuss them with you one point at a time, ok? When you have time you can post your findings, and if you agree or disagree please show the scripture.
#1 Elohim is the one who created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
#2 Elohim's image is male and female, Gen 1:27.
#3 Spirit Elohim is the female “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 1:2
#4 YHWH Elohim is the male “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 2:4
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Hi David,David:
Quote #1 Elohim is the one who created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
So far, so good.David:
Quote #2 Elohim's image is male and female, Gen 1:27. Genesis 1:27 NET
God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.Where exactly does it say Elohim's image is “male and female” here?
David:
Quote #3 Spirit Elohim is the female “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 1:2 Genesis 1:2 NIV
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.Where does this scripture say God's Spirit is a female?
David:
Quote #4 YHWH Elohim is the male “essence/image/part” of Elohim. Gen 2:4 Genesis 2:4 NWT
4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.First, this scripture doesn't even say God is a “HE”, but many other ones do. Second, Jehovah is the personal name of God, not an “essence of Elohim”.
Exodus 3:13-15 NWT
13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.So, on #1 we agree. On #2 and #3, I think it is a little premature for ME to list MY supporting scriptures when the ones YOU have listed don't even say what you claim they do. And the scriptures I listed on #4 should be clear enough for you to understand that Jehovah/I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be/YHVH is the personal NAME OF Elohim, not a different “essence”.
peace and love,
mikeHello Mike, Thanks for responding.
YOU: Genesis 1:27 NET God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.
Where exactly does it say Elohim's image is “male and female” here?ME: The word “God” is Elohim in Hebrew in this sentence, so I will rewrite it replacing God with Elohim, ok?
Genesis 1:27 NET Elohim created humankind in his own image, in the image of Elohim he created them, MALE and FEMALE he created them.Man (humankind) is male and female, in the image of Elohim, no?
#3- YOU: Genesis 1:2 NIV Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Where does this scripture say God's Spirit is a female?
ME: the word “Spirit” in Hebrew in this sentence is “ruwach”. Following this to Strong's Lexicon the number is H7307 and spirit is a feminine noun.
If you don't like using “female” I could use “feminine”, just as YHWH is “masculine” and not “male” by definition. Was this your point? But hopefully we can utilize the two interchangeably, no?
Regardless, my point is that Spirit being feminine, cannot be YHWH who is masculine.
#4- YOU: Gen 2:4 NWT This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
First, this scripture doesn't even say God is a “HE”, but many other ones do. Second, Jehovah is the personal name of God, not an “essence of Elohim”.
ME: The point I am trying to make here is that Elohim in Gen 1:1 who created…. is not “exactly” the same “person” as YHWH Elohim or Ruwach Elohim….there is a difference, which I will try to show in my next post, ok?
I will agree with you that YHWH Elohim in Gen 2:4, his name is YHWH. Also, I think there is sufficient information that we can agree that YHWH is “male” “masculine” “He” without any problems from me.
Also, the points in Gen 1:2 and Gen 2:4 is that there are TWO distinct separate and “individuals” being talked about: Ruwach Elohim and YHWH Elohim.
In order to avoid any debates on the English word “spirit” it may be best to change over and leave the individuals transliterated from Hebrew to English only, which would curb the debate on what each “essence” (Spirit & LORD) is, ok? Or if you feel comfortable I could use Spirit Elohim, as long as you don't want to debate what “spirit” is. That is not the purpose of this foundation thread, ok?
Summary:
Gen 1:1 shows Elohim as being “God”.
Gen 1:2 shows Ruwach Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim.
Gen 2:4 shows YHWH Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim, or Ruwach Elohim.
Gen 1:27 shows Elohim's image; male and female.To address another concern in a post elsewhere:
Elohim is the individual entity with the two essences, thus the plural majestic identifying Elohim (Supreme Being) as singular. Pronoun used for Elohim is “He”.
You are correct; YHWH or YHWH Elohim is the male essence of Elohim and would be addressed as “He”.
Many verses talk about YHWH or YHWH Elohim and have follow up sentences talking about Him and we can see the pronouns HE and HIS to concur with what you are saying.
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:09) Man (humankind) is male and female, in the image of Elohim, no?
Hi David,What did God create in His image? Human beings. He chose for some of these human beings to be male, and others female. This is the way God chose for us to be in order to procreate offspring.
You are lumping male and female together to insinuate that God is male/female. And you further error IMO by your understanding of the word “image”. I don't see “image” as saying God has two legs, or a hairy chest, or child bearing hips. I understand “image” to mean that we are able to love, show mercy to those who are weaker, compute vast amounts of info with our brains, etc.
Think about this: I am created in God's image. I am ONLY male, not some mix of male/female. Do you think that only the “male essence” of God created me, and the “female essence” of God created Kathi in “Her” image?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:16) ME: the word “Spirit” in Hebrew in this sentence is “ruwach”. Following this to Strong's Lexicon the number is H7307 and spirit is a feminine noun.
“Ruwach” also means “breath”. Is every “breath” that a Hebrew MAN takes in HIS entire life a “feminine” breath?Can a “breath” even have a sex? I brought up “casa” before. Can a Spanish house have a sex?
mike
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:36) Also, the points in Gen 1:2 and Gen 2:4 is that there are TWO distinct separate and “individuals” being talked about: Ruwach Elohim and YHWH Elohim. In order to avoid any debates on the English word “spirit” it may be best to change over and leave the individuals transliterated from Hebrew to English only, which would curb the debate on what each “essence” (Spirit & LORD) is, ok? Or if you feel comfortable I could use Spirit Elohim, as long as you don't want to debate what “spirit” is. That is not the purpose of this foundation thread, ok?
To answer this, I will bring my post over from the other thread. There, you implied that I should not insert the word “of” between ruwach and elohim if I don't insert one between YHVH and elohim.Okay Big Wave Dave,
As long as you give that same application to every instance in the Hebrew that the Greeks made it genetive and the English add the word “of”, okay? Here's just one of hundreds that you can start with:
NKJV Gen 5:1
This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.Now here is the Hebrew:
this book descendents adam god create god adam likeness god fashion
So don't bother adding OF the descendents OF Adam. And since we can't add “likeness OF God”, I guess we just came up with yet another “essence of God”. This one is the “Likeness Elohim”.
Come on David.
Do you think there is an “essence of God” named “Likeness Elohim”, or do you think the “of” should be inserted to say “likeness OF Elohim”?peace and love,
mikeQuote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:40) Summary: Gen 1:1 shows Elohim as being “God”.
Gen 1:2 shows Ruwach Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim.
Gen 1:1 doesn't “show” Elohim as being “God” David. “God” is the English word FOR the Hebrew word “Elohim”. “Elohim” MEANS “God”. We have ONE God…..His NAME is YHVH.‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite,
Do you disagree with this passage David? I noticed you didn't respond to it.
And “Ruwach Elohim” is God's Spirit. If you are saying we shouldn't add the “OF” because the “OF” isn't in the Hebrew, then why do you think the Greek scripture writers never spoke of a “Spirit God”, but instead a “Spirit OF God”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,21:07) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:40) Summary: Gen 1:1 shows Elohim as being “God”.
Gen 1:2 shows Ruwach Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim.
Gen 1:1 doesn't “show” Elohim as being “God” David. “God” is the English word FOR the Hebrew word “Elohim”. “Elohim” MEANS “God”. We have ONE God…..His NAME is YHVH.‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite,
Do you disagree with this passage David? I noticed you didn't respond to it.
And “Ruwach Elohim” is God's Spirit. If you are saying we shouldn't add the “OF” because the “OF” isn't in the Hebrew, then why do you think the Greek scripture writers never spoke of a “Spirit God”, but instead a “Spirit OF God”?
mike
Hi Mike,Elohim is the “one” who is doing the creating in Gen 1:1…which you agreed to initially. Now it seems you are changing your mind because you are changing to another topic “YHWH”.
To me Elohim means Elohim and I thought I asked not to translate the words for Elohim, Ruwach, or YHWH. But right off the bat you jump to “breath” and “God” for these two words and want to jump to calling God YHWH.
As for your Greek writers they don't have YHWH either, so now YHWH doesn't exist. Also for the Greek writers “spirit” is an “it” which precludes “it” from being God the Father, thank you.
From all the things I asked that we don't do…is exactly what you did.
YHWH has been translated “LORD”, are you going to stick with translators or jump to whatever you want?
Ruwach Elohim is an individual just as YHWH Elohim is. We know that by the HEBREW (not Greek) that is written.
You accept YHWH Elohim as it is written but negate Ruwach Elohim as it is written. Thus, without consistency on your part, which you are willfully doing, discussing the other Scriptures that you care to jump to are pointless. And since we are talking about Hebrew I don't have a clue why you are trying to bring up Greek, or English.
All I have tried to show is that there are 3 distinct “identities/entities” in the book of Genesis. Elohim, Ruwach Elohim, and YHWH Elohim.
Other than Gen 1:2 all the talking and action is done by Elohim. And according to you, Elohim is a generic god because Elohim really isn't God, YHWH is God.
And you continue to argue about “of”. I told you that if YOU wanted to insert the “of” in front of Elohim I would agree but we'd have to do the same for the other “person”…so I'll continue on in this vein.
Ruwach Elohim = Spirit of God
YHWH Elohim = Lord of GodMaybe in this view you can see that Elohim (God) is the subject and “owner” of the two objects Lord and Spirit.
Perhaps you can't see what you are doing but you are saying that Ruwach is OF Elohim, but then you say that YHWH IS Elohim. That is why I asked not to do any translations for these three words Ruwach, YHWH, or Elohim.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,20:35) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:09) Man (humankind) is male and female, in the image of Elohim, no?
Hi David,What did God create in His image? Human beings. He chose for some of these human beings to be male, and others female. This is the way God chose for us to be in order to procreate offspring.
You are lumping male and female together to insinuate that God is male/female. And you further error IMO by your understanding of the word “image”. I don't see “image” as saying God has two legs, or a hairy chest, or child bearing hips. I understand “image” to mean that we are able to love, show mercy to those who are weaker, compute vast amounts of info with our brains, etc.
Think about this: I am created in God's image. I am ONLY male, not some mix of male/female. Do you think that only the “male essence” of God created me, and the “female essence” of God created Kathi in “Her” image?
mike
Mike,Image is not the issue. I am not trying to explain what the image of Elohim is, all I am trying to do is show that God consists of “male and female” regardless of how you want to debate/interpret the word “image”.
As for the rest of your statement saying that God chose for some of these human beings to be male, etc is not true. YHWH Elohim formed only ONE male, “Adam” and then took from Adam's “side/rib” and formed woman.
Again, the point isn't what Elohim's image is, only that Elohim consists of “male and female”.
Without having to define “image”….Mathematically it is:
Elohim's image = male, female
Note- It isn't saying YHWH's image but Elohim's image.
YHWH is one part of Elohim's image. Ruwach is the other part of Elohim's image.
Elohim's image = YHWH, Ruwach
By using the generic word “God” all that does is cause confusion within this step by step process.
I haven't discussed God's name but you have already jumped there and we haven't finished this part showing Elohim and the two parts of Elohim: Ruwach Elohim (Gen 1:2) and YHWH Elohim (Gen 2:4).
Mike,
I asked this but you haven't addressed it:
You asked me how the Spirit was “female” because it didn't say so in the sentence….
ME: the word “Spirit” in Hebrew in this sentence is “ruwach”. Following this to Strong's Lexicon the number is H7307 and spirit is a feminine noun.
If you don't like using “female” I could use “feminine”, just as YHWH is “masculine” and not “male” by definition. Was this your point? But hopefully we can utilize the two interchangeably, no?
Regardless, my point is that Spirit being feminine, cannot be YHWH who is masculine.
Mike,
To tell you the truth, all I was hoping from this debate is that you could see that Elohim consists of two essences YHWH and Ruwach…and that they are part OF Elohim.
I get that information from the connection of the word Elohim to their “essence's “Names””……”Ruwach” Elohim and “YHWH” Elohim.
These essences are separate individuals and have separate functions/duties that they perform.
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 11 2010,05:51) Hi Mike, Elohim is the “one” who is doing the creating in Gen 1:1…which you agreed to initially. Now it seems you are changing your mind because you are changing to another topic “YHWH”.
Hi David,Yes, Elohim does the creating in Gen 1:1 and everywhere else in the Bible.
David, one simple question for you before we move forward:
Do you understand the Elohim is the Hebrew word for God and that our God has a name and it is YHVH?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2010,22:46) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 11 2010,05:51) Hi Mike, Elohim is the “one” who is doing the creating in Gen 1:1…which you agreed to initially. Now it seems you are changing your mind because you are changing to another topic “YHWH”.
Hi David,Yes, Elohim does the creating in Gen 1:1 and everywhere else in the Bible.
David, one simple question for you before we move forward:
Do you understand the Elohim is the Hebrew word for God and that our God has a name and it is YHVH?
mike
Hi Mike,I understand what you are saying. I think that you don't understand me, and that's ok.
I see YHWH Elohim as one of the two essences of Elohim with the other Ruwach Elohim. These TWO comprise the ONE God, Elohim.
I accept Elohim as the “NAME” for “God” with the TWO essences. I accept YHWH as the name for the male essence of Elohim.
I believe that Elohim did the creating but that also includes both YHWH and Ruwach as participating in the creation process.
The problem with trying to identify Elohim as “God”, later on you will try to replace or transition YHWH as being “God”, too….and eliminate Elohim as the entity with the two essences or make YHWH equal to Elohim, which to me, they are not.
And since I believe that YHWH is God and will not deny it, we will end up going round and round.
Or like in math, Elohim is the whole and YHWH is a subset of the whole. Replacing the generic word “God” for Elohim and then doing the same for YHWH would be logical suicide, and would incorrectly display the two entities.
It would be the same difference by exchanging Ruwach for the word “God”. Ruwach and YHWH are not the same and I would be amiss to agree to that. However, they both are “God” in themselves….as subsets to the “whole” God.
Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 17 2010,08:57) I see YHWH Elohim as one of the two essences of Elohim with the other Ruwach Elohim.
Hi David,Well then you're “seeing” it wrong. YHVH is the NAME OF GOD. Elohim simply means “GOD”. So when it says YHVH Elohim or Elohim YHVH, it just means Jehovah God or God Jehovah.
I have showed you the scripture where Elohim told Moses His NAME was YHVH. Who do you suppose the “male essence” of Elohim was before they knew of YHVH Elohim? Because Abraham, Issac and Jacob never knew Elohim by His NAME. There was no mention of “YHVH Elohim” until Moses learned of Elohim's personal NAME. Do you suppose that in the days of Abraham, Elohim only had a “female essence”?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 17 2010,22:07) Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 17 2010,08:57) I see YHWH Elohim as one of the two essences of Elohim with the other Ruwach Elohim.
Hi David,Well then you're “seeing” it wrong. YHVH is the NAME OF GOD. Elohim simply means “GOD”. So when it says YHVH Elohim or Elohim YHVH, it just means Jehovah God or God Jehovah.
I have showed you the scripture where Elohim told Moses His NAME was YHVH. Who do you suppose the “male essence” of Elohim was before they knew of YHVH Elohim? Because Abraham, Issac and Jacob never knew Elohim by His NAME. There was no mention of “YHVH Elohim” until Moses learned of Elohim's personal NAME. Do you suppose that in the days of Abraham, Elohim only had a “female essence”?
peace and love,
mike
Actually Mike, the name given in Ex 3:15 is YHWH Elohim. The description of “I AM THAT I AM” was given in Ex 3:14. Or as I usually put it, “I EXIST”, because it is a description of “God”.As I said before, I don't have a problem with YHWH Elohim or YHWH being the male essence's name, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
And YHWH Elohim has physically been in existence with humans since Gen 2:7 when he physically formed Adam with His own hands and physically blew into Adam's nostrils.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD (YHWH) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 12:8 Then he proceeded from there to the mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; and there he built an altar to the LORD and called upon the name of the LORD. (literally it says, “called upon name YHWH”….not “of the LORD”)
Genesis 1 Elohim says….and then it happens. Beginning in Genesis 2 we see YHWH Elohim doing the work physically and has a physical presence.
You also tend to overlook the workings of Ruwach Elohim which the Bible says is the “power” of Elohim. Thus, after Elohim “spoke” Ruwach did the action in Genesis 1. In Genesis 2 you don't have anything “spoken”, you have YHWH Elohim performing. So Ruwach Elohim performed the “big” stuff while YHWH did the “little” stuff. But then again as part of Elohim, he also assisted in the “big” stuff by definition of being a part of Elohim.
Again, Elohim is the Name of the entity that has the two essences. YHWH is the Name of the male essence entity. Ruwach is the Name of the female essence entity. When you try to eliminate the names of each and insert the generic word “God” all that can do is to lead to confusion…..which you keep wanting to do…and which I want to avoid.
Elohim created the heavens and the earth. YHWH Elohim and Ruwach Elohim are part of Elohim and therefore, they took part and are the Creators.
Logically, since YHWH has a physical body and we read that Elohim “said” I would place the “talking” being done by YHWH. And since Ruwach is the “power” of Elohim I place the performance of the action by Ruwach.
As Simply Forgiven posted, no where can we see the son being mentioned in the Old Testament in the process of creation and the only time we are privy to that information is in the New Testament. So HOW Elohim created everything THRU His son is a mystery, and not definitive.
Since in Exodus 3:15 we see that YHWH Elohim is the “Name” attributed to the male essence and that was His name in Genesis 2, it would also be logical to attribute Ruwach Elohim as the name of the female essence written about in Gen 1:2.
Mike,
How do you account for Ruwach Elohim? Is Ruwach a separate entity as displayed in Genesis 1:2? Or do you place Ruwach Elohim inside of YHWH Elohim, who is the other separate entity of Elohim?
Why the identification of the 3 entities: Elohim, YHWH and Ruwach?
If YHWH is the “only” God, why start out God's book with a generic “title” as you claim Elohim to be?
Wouldn't it been more correct to say, “In the beginning YHWH created……” and “YHWH said….”
Unless of course, Elohim is a name and Elohim did the creating and talking?
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