- This topic has 140 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
Proclaimer: Let’s put this together to isolate the statement you are making that is relevant to my rebuttal.
Okay.
Proclaimer: Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a 24 hour period is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a 24 hour period.
Well, you have half of it right. Let me show you the other half…
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a 24 hour period [from His point of view] is like a thousand years [from our point of view], and a thousand years [from His point of view] is like a 24 hour period [from our point of view].
Now do you finally see it? Peter wasn’t saying the same thing two times, Proclaimer. He was saying that a thousand years of OUR TIME could seem like only a single day went by for God, AND ALSO that a literal 24-hour day of OUR TIME could seem like it took a thousand years to pass for God.
So in Bizarro World, where some knucklehead believes that Peter’s metaphorical statement somehow has any relevance to the days of the flood, the days of exile in Babylon, the days of David’s reign, or the days of creation, that knucklehead must accept that it could either mean those days were 365k times longer than literal days… OR 365k times SHORTER than literal days.
Peter’s statement cuts both ways, Proclaimer. If someone were stupid enough to try to apply it to the days of creation in the first place, it could either mean that one day of creation lasted a thousand years (365k times longer than a normal day) OR that one day of creation lasted about a quarter of a second (365k times shorter than a normal day).
Proclaimer: So the creation days are NOT 24 hours long because the context says otherwise.
You keep talking about this “context”, but you haven’t produced it. Surely you’re not dumb enough to think that illogically applying a metaphorical statement to the days of creation constitutes “context” that the days of creation ARE THEREFORE different from normal days… are you? 🤔
Please list the “context” to which you keep referring so we can discuss it…
but only AFTER you answer my latest question about God creating the sun on day four. Thanks.
Mike again admits that ‘day’ / ‘yowm’ does not always refer to a 24 hour period
Proclaimer: We both agree that day is not always 24 hours just like the Hebrew dictionaries state.
This applies to the days of creation. And a day to the LORD is not a day like ours. And man and the sun were not created according to you, so the creation days are not 24 hours.
This is settled right?
PROCLAIMER: ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, GOD MADE THE SUN, MOON AND STARS AND PLACED THEM IN HEAVEN ON THE FOURTH DAY OF CREATION.
KNOWING NOW THAT THE EARLIEST EXISTENCE OF HEAVEN DOESN’T PRESUPPOSE THE SIMULTANEOUS EXISTENCE OF THE SUN, MOON, STARS OR ANY OTHER THING CURRENTLY IN IT ANY MORE THAN THE EARLIEST EXISTENCE OF EARTH PRESUPPOSES THE SIMULTANEOUS EXISTENCE OF DRY LAND, VEGETATION, FISH, ANIMALS, MANKIND OR ANY OTHER THING CURRENTLY IN IT…
PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR, AND THAT THEY WERE ALREADY A PART OF HEAVEN BEFORE GOD PLACED THEM INTO THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN ON DAY FOUR… OR OPENLY ACNKOWLEDGE THAT NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS EXISTS.Answer
The view I hold works with both the text and observation / science. Your view contradicts both science and the text itself. My view is:
- A day is like a thousand years to God;
- God created the heavens and the earth before the completion of Day 1.
- There was already light and darkness on Day 1.
So how does the sun, moon, and stars appear in the vault on Day 4? Easy. They were placed in the vault on the fourth day because the atmosphere cleared sufficiently from a formless and void planet, to light and darkness and calendar days, to a planet where the waters below were separated from the waters above resulting in a clear atmosphere above.
Think of Venus. It has water in the atmosphere right down to the ground. If you could stand on the surface of Venus, would you see the sun? If not, would that mean if on Day/Stage 4 of terraforming Venus in the year 2090 AD, that the sun was created by man on Day 4 if the atmosphere cleared sufficiently through the process of growing plants over an extended period of time or some other process that cleared the atmosphere?.
You read Genesis as saying that God created the sun, moon, stars all in a 24 hour period on Day 4 and before that, they did not exist at all. But you ignore the three points I made above in this post. Whereas, my view works with both observation / science and the text perfectly with no contradiction. So I tend to take that view because truth ticks all the boxes. Not just one or two boxes. The truth consistently adds up no matter which way it is correctly viewed.
The truth makes things very clear and simple and lies are complex and confusing. Your interpretation is confusing because you have light and darkness and 24 hour days before the sun to contend with. Lol. Your theory is simply not sensible or worthy of consideration IMO. All you are really doing is making people doubt the authenticity of the Bible by stating that all science is wrong and your view of Genesis is right despite there being glaring contradictions in the bible itself with your view. This would lead to men listening to you only so they can ignore repentance because they want you to be correct so that they can write the Bible off as a fable and thus do not need to repent because if the Bible is wrong about history that we can observe to a degree, then how can it be right about the future which requires faith only.
Let’s recap your theory so far just to see how far fetched it really is:
- Light and darkness on earth happened before the sun existed.
- 24 hour days existed before the sun was created.
- 24 hour days existed before man was created.
- Plants were created in a single 24 hour period and they bore fruit and seeds in that same 24 hour period.
- While you acknowledge that day can be much longer than a 24 hour period, you cherry pick 24 hours for no good reason.
- You just ignore how patient God is. He states prophecy like its happening soon, when in our timing, it seems like a very long time, even millennia. Think of the Last Days for example. Are those 24 hour days? No. I think the Last Days were mentioned as far back as Jesus time. I would need to check that though, but we both know it is not the last 2 or 3 24 hour periods on earth. It could be a matter of years or even decades for all we know. Even millennia. As two millennia have passed. So that could be the last days. Or have you forgotten that a day to the Lord is like a millennia?
So how come the Last Days for you is not 2 x 24 hour periods or something similarly small?
Okay, that is a rhetorical question. I don’t want to waste my next must answer question on that, so will provide my question in another post. Suffice to say, think about the Last Days Mike. I am sure by now you have seen many examples of day/days/yo-wn/ that are not 24 hours. Surely you must be doubting yourself.
Now do you finally see it? Peter wasn’t saying the same thing two times, Proclaimer. He was saying that a thousand years of OUR TIME could seem like only a single day went by for God, AND ALSO that a literal 24-hour day of OUR TIME could seem like it took a thousand years to pass for God.
I never stated that they were the same. Read what I said again.
With the Lord a 24 hour period is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a 24 hour period.
Genesis chapter one and other places in scripture says God made earth and heaven in six separate days. We have already established that there was the day for the creation of plants, the day for heavenly objects in the vault, the day for animals, and the day for man. And you have admitted that ‘the day’ can be any length of time required. So I think this topic is done and dusted because your admission of this truth means you have to be open to the creation days not being 24 hours. Unless you have other reasons for forcing a strict 24 hour period for the creation days. But before you do that, I want you to answer the question below in bold to wrap up the idea that a ‘day’ can be any length of time or that it is the time required to fit the context. So please look at Genesis 2:4 where it basically says that God created the heavens and earth in a single day.
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.’
I do not personally believe that this day is 24 hours of course and neither do you. Yet, you hold the 6 days of creation as strict 24 hour periods, but not this day. This is you cherry picking to suit your narrative. Now my question.
Do you agree that any mention of ‘day’ must mean an indefinite period of time which is determined by the context of the verse?
If you say yes, then this debate is over. If you say ‘no’, then all can see how you cherry pick to suit your narrative.
So if the day is God creating the heavens and earth, then it is simply the length of time required to accomplish this task. If it is the day that God created the plants and trees and with them flowering and producing seeds and fruit, then that means the length of time required for that to take place sufficiently and then some. These are the same word ‘day’ and yet the day of plants would logically be shorter than the day God created the heavens and the earth right? Because the day God created plants is one stage of the day that God created the heaven and earth. Therefore, creation days / yo-wn are not strictly 24 hours as you argue.
Mike: PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR…
Proclaimer: Answer
1. A day is like a thousand years to God;
2. God created the heavens and the earth before the completion of Day 1.
3. There was already light and darkness on Day 1.1. Irrelevant to the question I asked. Whether or not God created the sun, moon and stars on day 4 has nothing to do with how long that day was.
2. First of all, that is inaccurate, since we know from Gen 1 that God made heaven on day 2, and earth on day 3.
Secondly, even if heaven and earth existed by the end of day 1, the existence of heaven doesn’t necessitate the existence of the sun on day 1 any more than the existence of the earth necessitates the existence of mankind on day 1. (You don’t seem to be getting this point, no matter how many times I lay it out for you. Proclaimer, there can be heaven WITHOUT the sun just like there can be earth WITHOUT Adam and Eve.)
And thirdly, it doesn’t actually answer my question. I’m asking how there could BE a sun BEFORE God MADE the sun on day 4. I’m asking for your scriptural support that there is some way we could read, “Let there be lights/Then God MADE the lights on day 4” where it somehow DOESN’T mean that God actually MADE those lights on day 4.
Do you understand now? The scriptural words clearly say “X”, and you are claiming “Y”. I’m asking where you found a reason in scripture to claim that when the scriptures say “X”, they really mean “Y” instead.
Let me make it even more clear: The scriptures say that God MADE the sun on day 4. Is there some scriptural evidence that the Hebrew word “MADE” actually means “Allowed something that already existed to shine on the earth”? If so, show that evidence. If not, acknowledge that there isn’t any such evidence. That’s what my question was asking from you – so please answer it correctly.
3. Irrelevant to my question, since the existence of LIGHT on day 1 does NOT equate to the existence of THE SUN on day 1.
Proclaimer: So how does the sun, moon, and stars appear in the vault on Day 4? Easy.
The scriptural words say, “God said, ‘Let lights come into existence’/And God MADE the lights”. The words have nothing whatsoever to do with something that already existed “appearing” in a different place, or being “allowed to shine through to earth”, or with an atmosphere being cleared up.
Proclaimer, you have not yet reasonably answered my previous Must Answer question. I want to know your scriptural reason for claiming that the words, “God said, ‘Let lights come into existence’/And God MADE the lights” actually mean, “lights that already existed were allowed to shine through a cleared up atmosphere”.
I’m asking why you say that the scriptural words “God MADE” don’t actually mean “God MADE” in Gen 1:16. Forget all your other pontification. Just focus on the first two words of Gen 1:16 – and nothing else. Why does “God made” NOT actually MEAN “God made” in Gen 1:16?
Hi Mike.
Looks like your post didn’t render correctly.
Copy the whole thing in Visual mode, then paste it back in, but in Text mode.
Question
Before I address your concerns regarding my answer, I want to change my question, since you haven’t answered it yet.
In Genesis 2:4, how many days does it say took place for God to create the heaven and earth, and how many hour does that equal?
If you consider this two questions, then sad, because it is really one question with a two part answer. So answer this one instead. I would prefer the first question if you can handle it, but of not, then I will assume you believe God created the heaven and earth in one day and await the answer to the question.
In Genesis 2:4, how many hours did it take for God to create the heaven and earth?
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.
I’m not following you.
Do you want me to address my answer and then get another question?
Or you want me to address my answer and then you will answer my question?
Answer
BUT ONLY AFTER YOU ANSWER MY LATEST QUESTION ABOUT GOD CREATING THE SUN ON DAY FOUR. THANKS.
I don’t believe that God created the sun on the fourth day Mike and I do not believe that the text forces us to believe this. Perhaps now you understand my answer? Do you want me to pretend to believe it so I can answer your question?
Regardless, here is a footnote in The Scofield Reference Bible that I just googled and I agree with.
Neither here nor in verses 14-18 is an original creative act implied. A different word is used. The sense is, made to appear; made visible. The sun and the moon were created in the beginning. The light of course came from the sun, but the vapour diffused the light. Later the sun appeared in an unclouded sky
(The Scofield Reference Bible, edited by C.I. Scofield, New York, Oxford University Press, 1909, p. 3, note 4).You see Mike, the sun, moon, and stars were made visible for purposes of measuring ‘days, years’, and seasons. Prior to this, there was no clear defined 24 hour day on earth apart from light and darkness from Day One. IMO, it would have been a diffused light hitting the earth before Day Four as you would expect when the waters above and below have no to little separation. Then after the separation begins and coupled with the creation of plants, the atmosphere would further clear to the point that the actual luminaries become visible, rather than just seeing the effects of their rays. So he placed them in the vault / sky. The sky is what you see when you look up from the surface of the earth. It is only a very small fraction of the whole cosmos though.
Psalm 104:19
He made the moon to mark the seasons, and the sun knows when to go down.So did God created the moon to mark seasons only? No, of course not. It is just saying that the moon was made for that purpose. It doesn’t say that there are not other purposes right. I believe that the moon has an impact on the tides and other things, reflects light during the night, and also is made to mark seasons as a sort of calendar in the vault. The sun is similar. It gives light yes. But it also is a calendar or time piece. It has many purposes. It provides warmth, Further, Psalm 104:19 has the sun going down. This happens on a globe earth that is spinning around the sun, not a flat disc with a small LED light circling above.
Now here is a quote from Bible Tools regarding Genesis 1:14-15 which is talking about the fourth day.
The events of the fourth day are somewhat controversial. Some claim that verses 14 and 15 simply repeat what God said in verses 3 and 4. However, note the difference:
“Let there be light”; and there was light. (verse 3)
“Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. (verses 14-15)
In verse 3, God describes the creation of conditions to permit light to penetrate the earth’s atmosphere. In verse 14, God is being very specific about certain “lights” that became visible from the surface of the earth. These specific lights were created to serve “for signs and seasons, and for days and years.”On the fourth day, God made visual observation of the sun, moon, and stars possible. Before this, the earth’s cloud-cover did not permit an observer on earth’s surface to see these heavenly bodies. God diminished the cloud-cover so that clear days would be possible, and thus heavenly bodies could be used to keep track of time. Once time was regulated, men could determine when to observe God’s holy days. Most likely, God also adjusted the speed of the earth’s revolution around the sun as well as the moon’s speed of orbit around the earth.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/3554/Seasons-Gods-Adjustment-of-.htmUnlike yourself Mike, when I read scripture, I do not take the simplest or literal reading of the text. You need wisdom Mike, so that rules out the wicked understanding it. Scripture is much deeper than applying such simple thinking that you tend to do. You need to judge scripture with scripture, in context, and also with leading of the Spirit and truth from other areas because truth is truth. We call these witnesses or signs. If there is more than one way of reading the text, then you need to judge it by all truth.
A three-fold witness is strong. I have scripture, science, and personal observation all agreeing with the way I understand God creating the heavens and the earth. You have none of these things. I pointed out that your interpretation of 24 hour creation days totally flies in the face of the following:
- Scripture itself: Genesis 2:4 – This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made earth and heaven. This does not agree with your 6 x 24 hour creation days.
- Science: There is much research that points to an ancient globe earth, not a young flat disc.
- I can observe and learn that the earth is a globe that orbits the sun with my own science experiments and even without scientific experiments. Observations do not support your view of a 6000 or so year old disc.
When a theory fails multiple tests, it is time for a new theory.
Mike: PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR…
Proclaimer: 1. A day is like a thousand years to God.
This does not address my question – which doesn’t concern the length of any days. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: 2. God created the heavens and the earth before the completion of Day 1.
Even if that were true, the creation of heaven does not presuppose the simultaneous creation of the sun, moon, and stars. And scriptural evidence that God created heaven on day 2 and the sun, moon and stars on day 4 refutes your argument, and leaves my question unanswered.
Proclaimer: 3. There was already light and darkness on Day 1.
Correct. How is this scriptural evidence that the sun, moon, and stars existed before God made them on day 4? My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: So how does the sun, moon, and stars appear in the vault on Day 4?
Scripture doesn’t say they “appear in the vault” on day 4. It says God made them and placed them into heaven on day 4. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: …the atmosphere cleared sufficiently…
Scripture doesn’t speak of an unclear atmosphere, or a clearing of it. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: Think of Venus…
Scripture doesn’t speak of any “planet”, let alone one named after a pagan Roman goddess. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: You read Genesis as saying that God created the sun, moon, stars all in a 24 hour period on Day 4 and before that, they did not exist at all.
Correct.
Proclaimer: But you ignore the three points I made above in this post.
I addressed your points above. None of them address my question… which remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: …my view works with both observation / science and the text perfectly with no contradiction.
Neither observation nor science can determine that an ancient unclear atmosphere was subsequently cleared, and the text explicitly refutes your view. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: Your interpretation is confusing because you have light and darkness and 24 hour days before the sun to contend with. Lol.
The scriptures explicitly say there was the creation of light and a separation of light from darkness that God called days – each with a single morning and a single evening – before the sun was made. Your “Lol” not withstanding, my question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: Your theory is simply not sensible or worthy of consideration IMO.
Your opinion is irrelevant to my question – which remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: Let’s recap your theory so far just to see how far fetched it really is:
Okay.
Proclaimer: Light and darkness on earth happened before the sun existed.
Yes. That is scriptural, and the basis of my question – which remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: 24 hour days existed before the sun was created.
Yes. This too is scriptural, and the basis for my question – which remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: 24 hour days existed before man was created.
Yes. This is scriptural, and I’m baffled as to why you think this is odd. Even your Scientism claims 24 hour days before man existed. My question remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: Plants were created in a single 24 hour period and they bore fruit and seeds in that same 24 hour period.
Yes. This is scriptural, and is the basis of another question (about Jonah) that you didn’t answer. But I’ll ask that one again soon. For now, my question above still remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: While you acknowledge that day can be much longer than a 24 hour period, you cherry pick 24 hours for no good reason.
Incorrect. I acknowledge that statements like, “in that day” are idiomatic, and used by us like they are used in scripture. But I’ve also pointed out the FACT that when the word day is modified by evening/morning or numbers, it is always referring to literal days – both in scripture and in our own usage. In fact, you used this verse as an example…
Micah 7:11… The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
…and asked me if Micah was talking about a 24 hour day. I responded…
Mike: I think it refers to Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, so NO. But what if the Micah prophecy had said this…
In the evening of the first day of rebuilding your walls, people will come to you from Assyria, and by the morning of the second day of rebuilding your walls, they will begin to arrive from the cities of Egypt.
Now are we talking about literal days? Of course we are – because we have included morning and evening and have numbered the days.
It is just another of DOZENS of my questions that you refuse to answer – including the one at the top of this post, which still remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: I think the Last Days were mentioned as far back as Jesus time… but we both know it is not the last 2 or 3 24 hour periods on earth. It could be a matter of years or even decades for all we know.
Correct. But the fact that Jesus used the plural “days” means they are literal days – despite us not knowing exactly how many of them will pass before the events he prophesied are realized.
There are two ways the idiom is used. For example, Jesus also speaks of the events “back in the days (plural) of Noah”. (Matt 24:37, etc) We know from the plural “days” that they are literal days, but we don’t know how many of them. But Jesus could have also used the singular “day” (back in the day of Noah) to make his point. If he had used the singular, then we’d know from context that the “day” was a general time period, and not a literal day. But since he used the plural “days”, we know it is a general time period made up of a bunch of literal days.
We do it the same way today. You can say “back in the day of my grandmother”, in which case the singular “day” is not a literal day, but a general time period. But you could also say, “back in the days of my grandmother”, in which case it is still a general time period, but the plural “days” refers to a bunch of literal days throughout that general time period.
Proclaimer, this is how an open and honest discussion between peers is done. Questions are answered, points are RESPONDED TO and addressed. I keep addressing your points (2 Peter 3:8, plants within a 24 hour period, Micah, all the various points you made in your post that I’m RESPONDING TO [for the second time] right now, etc), but then you don’t RESPOND to my rebuttals, and just keep making the same points over and over – as if I haven’t addressed them.
Rest assured that I haven’t forgotten those points that you’ve ignored. They WILL come up as Must Answer questions eventually. But for now, I’d like a proper response to my question at the top of this post – which remains unanswered.
Mike: PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR…
Proclaimer: I don’t believe that God created the sun on the fourth day Mike and I do not believe that the text forces us to believe this.
The text clearly, undeniably, and explicitly says exactly that – and your “beliefs” are not the SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that I’ve asked for in my question above – which still remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: …here is a footnote in The Scofield Reference Bible that I just googled and I agree with.
Neither here nor in verses 14-18 is an original creative act implied. A different word is used. The sense is, made to appear; made visible. The sun and the moon were created in the beginning. The light of course came from the sun, but the vapour diffused the light. Later the sun appeared in an unclouded sky.
Now we’re finally getting somewhere. First of all, the fact that you had to Google “how to make Gen 1 NOT mean what it clearly says” tells me that you realize your incessant pontification isn’t cutting it, and you’re getting desperate.
So let’s examine this writing that you agree with, and see if it holds up to scrutiny, shall we?
Neither here nor in verses 14-18 is an original creative act implied.
Genesis 1:14-19… 14And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven… And it was so. 16God made two great lights… 19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
How is the source with whom you agree even making that claim? “Let there be” clearly indicates that God’s about to bring into existence something that didn’t exist. “And it was so” clearly indicates that the thing God had just pronounced was SUBSEQUENTLY accomplished by Him. And “God made” explicitly says that God MADE these lights. And as we can see in vs 19, this occurred on the fourth day.
But let’s compare…
Genesis 1:6-7… 6And God said, “Let there be a firmament…” 7So God made the firmament… And it was so.
Can you see the similar language used in 1:6-7? Will you also argue that the firmament already existed, but was hidden by clouds?
How about this one…
Gen 1:20-21… 20And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of heaven.” 21So God created the great creatures of the sea… and every winged bird…
Similar language? Will you argue that the fish and birds already existed, but were hidden by clouds?
What about this one…
Gen 1:24-25… 24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds…” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds…
Same language again? Will you argue that the land animals already existed, but were hidden by clouds?
And one more…
Genesis 1:26-27… 26Then God said, “Let us make mankind…” 27So God created mankind in his own image…
Do you see that the same language is used throughout Genesis 1? Do you agree that it ALWAYS refers to God MAKING something that didn’t exist before? So why on earth would you (or your source) make such a nonsensical argument that this same language means something DIFFERENT only in verses 14-18?
A different word is used. The sense is, made to appear; made visible.
What different word? What is your source talking about? It is the same word “asa” that is used all throughout Gen 1 (and the OT) with the sense of “make”… never with a sense of “made to appear/made visible”.
Genesis 1:31… 31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Same word in the above. Will you argue that vs 31 excludes God MAKING the sun on day 4? On what SCRIPTURAL grounds will you do that?
The sun and the moon were created in the beginning.
That statement explicitly CONTRADICTS the text of 1:14-19.
The light of course came from the sun, but the vapour diffused the light. Later the sun appeared in an unclouded sky.
That statement not only CONTRADICTS 1:14-19, but ADDS things to the scripture that aren’t even there, like an alleged vapor or a clouded sky that became uncloudy at some point.
Your second source makes the same claims as your first source (the ones I just scripturally DEBUNKED), and even goes as far as to claim that God “adjusted the speed of the earth’s revolution around the sun as well as the moon’s speed of orbit around the earth.”
What the freak? 🤔 I can’t read about cloudy skies or the speed of the earth’s revolution around the sun in Genesis, Proclaimer. 😂
I’m happy that you are GETTING CLOSER to answering my question by substituting your own endless pontification for scriptural commentaries – but the commentaries you presented are nothing but SOMEONE ELSE’S pontification about things that aren’t said in Gen 1 as a way to twist the clear, undeniable, and EXPLICIT meaning of the things that are said.
And since that is the case, my question at the top of this post STILL remains unanswered.
Proclaimer: I have scripture, science, and personal observation all agreeing with the way I understand God creating the heavens and the earth.
Again, neither observation nor science can tell us anything about an alleged ancient sky filled with vapor before God cleared the sky to allow the sun to shine through. Get that one through your head so you stop making yourself look silly. As for the scripture you claim as agreeing with you, it CLEARLY, UNDENIABLY, AND EXPLICITLY CONTRADICTS YOU!
Proclaimer: I pointed out that your interpretation of 24 hour creation days totally flies in the face of the following:
Scripture itself: Genesis 2:4 – This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made earth and heaven. This does not agree with your 6 x 24 hour creation days.
I’m sorry… does that verse speak of a particular NUMBER of days (PLURAL), which each include a single evening and a single morning? NO. So my interpretation remains both scripturally and CONTEMPORARILY sound – seeing that we still today use the SINGULAR word “day” to refer to general times periods, and still today refer to LITERAL days when we modify the word “day” with evening/morning and particular numbers.
So here’s where we currently are: You didn’t actually answer my previous Must Answer question about why you insist the light in Gen 1:3 MUST BE sunlight – but I let it slide because your answer allowed the discussion to move forward anyway. I’m STILL waiting for your actual answer to the question at the top of this post. And after answering “ONE” to your last Must Answer question (post 931152 above), it is again my turn to ask another Must Answer question. I will put them both in a separate post to follow…
This is my previous Must Answer question that still remains unanswered…
PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN, MOON AND STARS ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE GOD MADE THEM ON DAY FOUR, AND THAT THEY WERE ALREADY A PART OF HEAVEN BEFORE GOD PLACED THEM INTO THE FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN ON DAY FOUR… OR OPENLY ACNKOWLEDGE THAT NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS EXISTS.
And here comes my next Must Answer question…
Proclaimer: Micah 7:11: ‘The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
In Micah 7:11, is the verse talking about a single 12 or 24 hour day? Yes or No.
Mike: I think it refers to Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, so NO.
My next Must Answer Question is…
But what if the Micah prophecy had said this…
In the evening of the first day of rebuilding your walls, people will come to you from Assyria, and by the morning of the second day of rebuilding your walls, they will begin to arrive from the cities of Egypt.
Now are we talking about literal days?
Proclaimer, I just spent a couple of hours individually addressing a bunch of your claims that I’ve already addressed a bunch of times before this. I KNOW that you can’t SCRIPTURALLY rebut a single thing I said in those two long posts, and I KNOW that you won’t even try.
But please DIRECTLY and HONESTLY answer the two Must Answer questions in the previous post before posting anything else on any thread. Thanks.
Proclaimer: I never stated that they were the same. Read what I said again…
“With the Lord a 24 hour period is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a 24 hour period.”
So then you understand that, if some knucklehead were to apply 2 Peter 3:8 to the creation account, that same knucklehead would have to allow for the days of creation either being 6 periods of a thousand years OR 6 periods of a quarter of a second, right? In other words, it would be JUST AS LIKELY that the 6 days of creation would amount to a total of a second and a half as it is that they would amount to 6000 years, right?
Please acknowledge that you understand this. Thanks.
Does forcing the creation days to be exactly 24 hours long make you a knucklehead?
Exactly. So forcing the creation days to be exactly 24 hours would make you a knucklehead. Especially considering what took place in these days. Plants can be created by God in any time period he likes, but for them to produce fruit and seeds etc means that we are looking at a long period of time, not 24 hours nor 24 seconds. And it is not just the plants. We will be discussing other things that show long days and how patient God is. After all, you could argue that God could restore all things 1 second after Jesus paid the price for our sins. But look how patient he is. So buckle up your seatbelt, Dorothy, ’cause Kansas is going bye bye.
Question
In Genesis 2:4, how many days does it say took place for God to create the heaven and earth, and how many hours does that equal?
Hi Mike.
I noticed you asked another question. But I am wondering if you can reply to this question first. Maybe you already have done that, but it is buried in your text somewhere. Regardless, it is easy to answer. Just a paragraph or two is all you need. Probably 5 minutes of your time.
In Genesis 2:4, how many days does it say took place for God to create the heaven and earth, and how many hours does that equal?
I’ve answered that question two different times now. Perhaps you could spend 10 minutes of your time to actually read what I used 2 hours of my time to write… then you’d see the two times I already answered your question. Keep in mind as you’re reading that the posts are only as long as they are because I meticulously addressed all the points that YOU made to me.
So in the future, if you don’t want long posts from me exposing your silly ideas, don’t put so many of them into your posts to me. 😉
Now… go READ what I wrote today so you can learn how all of your points were debunked (and not for the first time either). And THEN answer the two Must Answer questions that are waiting for you (one that you haven’t yet answered, and the new one I added after answering your last Must Answer question a week ago and again today).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
