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Mike: PROCLAIMER, DO YOU AGREE WITH GOD HIMSELF IN THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE THAT THE VERY CREATION OF THE HEAVEN AND EARTH IS INCLUDED IN THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION, AND NOT EXCLUDED FROM THOSE SIX DAYS AS YOU’VE PREVIOUSLY CLAIMED?
Proclaimer: I agree that it says “in six days the LORD made heaven and earth” in multiple places in the bible.
Thank you for your answer. We are finally agreed that the very creation of both heaven and earth are INCLUDED in the six days of creation – and not events that took place before those six days began. (Please pass this on to Gene and Carmel when you get a chance.)
Proclaimer: But I am not sure if this is referring to all the universe, or from the perspective of just the land, sea, and sky etc .
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them…
You no longer have to wonder. It is spelled out for you exactly what it is referring to. It refers to the heaven itself, the earth itself, the sea itself, and everything in those things.
Proclaimer: On Day one, he… created day and night suggesting that the earth was now lit by the sun.
We’re making progress – because if the sun is lighting the earth on day one, it’s going to be very hard for you to continue to claim that on day four “God allowed the sun to shine through to the earth”, right?
What if we just let the scriptures teach us – instead of the other way around? What the Bible says is that God created LIGHT on the first day… not THE SUN.
You make the mistake of assuming that there must be the sun for there to be light – and for there to be day/night cycles on the earth. But that’s not what the Bible teaches. You also make the mistake of assuming that there must be the sun for there to be heaven. But just as there can be earth without the existence of mankind, there can be heaven without the existence of the sun, moon, and stars.
So let’s see what the Bible actually says…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is an opening statement that prepares us for the creation account we are about to read.
Gen 2:1-2… Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.
This is a closing statement, concluding the creation account that we just read. Everything in between Gen 1:1 and Gen 2:2 is HOW heaven, earth, and everything in them were created – and in which order and on which days the various things were created.
Your mistake is understanding Gen 1:1 as meaning that the heaven and earth were ALREADY created and complete. But simply reading the REST of Gen 1 tells you that this cannot possibly be the case, because the REST of Gen 1 DESCRIBES the ACTUAL creation of heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them – as per Ex 20:11 listed above.
Gen 1:2… And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
At this point, there was only a blob of very dark water – from which both the heaven and the earth WERE ABOUT TO BE MADE. That’s right, both the heaven and the earth were about to be made from this same blob of water – which was all that existed at the time of Gen 1:2.
Gen 1:3-5… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”
And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Now at this point, there is still just the blob of water from which both heaven and earth are about to be made, but now God has created LIGHT , and the day/night cycle that constitutes a “day” on earth – each day consisting of one evening and one morning.
Heaven isn’t created until the next day, and the sun until two more days after that. But we’ll get to that. Right now just consider these…
2 Corinthians 4:6… For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts…
Revelation 22:5… They will not need the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.
- Must Answer Question
Proclaimer, since I’m sure you understand that the light God makes shine in our hearts and the light with which God will illuminate New Jerusalem is not sunlight, please provide any scriptural reason for you to insist that the light God made shine out of darkness in Gen 1:3 must be sunlight… or clearly and directly admit that there is no scriptural reason for your assumption.
Mike admits that (yō·wm) is not always 12 or 24 hours
YOUR ARGUMENT IS DEBUNKED.
Not so fast. Lol.
Let me extrapolate some useful tidbits from your post and sum them up with a commentary.
The question was:
In Micah 7:11, is the verse talking about a single 12 or 24 hour day? Yes or No.
Your answer is saying that it is NOT 12 or 24 hours.
Bravo. We have made progress.
You admit that DAY (yō·wm) is not always 12 or 24 hours.
This opens up the possibility that the days of creation were not 12 or 24 hours either. Especially when we consider that a day to the LORD is not the same as a day to us as it is clearly written. Further, you place the sun as being created on the fourth day, so 24 hour days before that seem very stupid. And finally, we have the scientific record which shows an older earth. That is a three-fold witness to stop forcing the creation days to be read as 24 hour days.
But you then give a reason as to why the creation days are not like the day I quoted in Micah. You state that there is a morning and evening meaning that it is talking about a normal solar earth day while simultaneously believing that a day is not always 24 hours long. So it is more about morning and evening and day together that seals the creation days as 24 hours. So let’s take a look at this argument of yours Mike.
A literal reading of evening-and-morning in the third day has seeds and fruit appearing in a literal period of 24 hours within the morning and evening, meaning we might need to narrow down that time to a 12 hour period. Seriously I bet you have never seen all the plants in the world produce seeds and fruit in a single 12 or 24 hour period. Your interpretation of Day 3 is not a sensible interpretation is it. Seeds do not germinate, and produce new vegetation in a 12 or 24 hour period and neither does fruit with seeds appear in that time frame. While I agree that God can do a miracle in certain instances here and there, we just never see this happening to all plants on the planet in a single 12 or 24 hour time span. To force that interpretation seems foolish does it not.
So what does morning and evening really mean anyway? Today, a 24-hour day is from 12 am to 11:59 pm (I think). But some think of it as sunrise to sunrise. In ancient Israel however, it was from sunset to sunset. So while we think of morning to evening; they thought of evening to morning. The phrase ‘And there was evening’ is saying that something new was started. When used together with ‘and there was morning’, it is simply saying from the beginning of something to the end of something. So in the context of the 24 hour solar day that earth experiences, it denotes our solar day because it begins and ends, and then it happens again. But a day on other planets are not 24 hours as they are unique. And a day to the LORD is a much longer time than a day for us. You see, God is not a martian or a native to planet earth. His existence is not like your existence. His days are not 24 hours long.
You can reject this explanation all you want, but I am simply quoting and expanding on scripture itself. Of course you can deny scripture, but let the readers know that this is what you are doing.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Anyway, you believe that Day (yō·wm) is not always 12 or 24 hours.
The brick has been placed. I will build my case from here.
BTW, that is not a literal brick. I keep forgetting that you are a literalist sometimes.
Anyhow, do you admit defeat or shall we continue?
Answer
Mike asked:
“SINCE I’M SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE LIGHT GOD MAKES SHINE IN OUR HEARTS AND THE LIGHT WITH WHICH GOD WILL ILLUMINATE NEW JERUSALEM IS NOT SUNLIGHT, PLEASE PROVIDE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO INSIST THAT THE LIGHT GOD MADE SHINE OUT OF DARKNESS IN GEN 1:3 MUST BE SUNLIGHT… OR CLEARLY AND DIRECTLY ADMIT THAT THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOUR ASSUMPTION.”Easy Mike. Read the next verse:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
See that. Because God’s Spirit was hovering over the waters of planet earth, that means the earth was already created and by extension, the heavens were created too and the sun and the stars are part of the heavens. In fact the heavens are mentioned before the earth. Take of that as you will.
So what is the light that separated the light from the darkness?
Well that could be sunlight.
It could be that as the earth’s atmosphere started clearing, the sunlight was able to penetrate a thick layer of water above (clouds) as the waters above and below started to separate. Even without seeing the sun initially, the light could have penetrated the clouds at this point allowing the creation of plants. Then later on, the atmosphere clears even more because plants help the process by filtering the air. Then in day four, the sun, moon and stars become visible in the vault. So now, the sky is very clear allowing not just sunlight, but also moonlight, and a view of the actual sun, moon, and stars themselves.
Question
Yes, the Bible says God created the heavens and earth in 6 days, but would it also be correct to say that God made the heavens and earth in a day? Yes / No.
A day is not always 24 hours because it depends on the context. You know this now. It just means a period of time where there is a start to something and an end to something. Simple as that. And it must be understood in context.
For example, in a wider context, the Bible could easily have stated that the heavens and earth were created in a day because this whole process had a start and an end. So my question now with your new understanding of the meaning of ‘day’ is as follows:
“Yes, the Bible says God created the heavens and earth in 6 days, but would it also be correct to say that God made the heavens and earth in a day? Yes / No.”
I say yes. God created the heavens and the earth in a day because creation had a beginning and end. But if I broke it down further, then I could also say there were 6 days or distinct phases / stages that themselves had a beginning and end. And on Day three for example, I could further break it down and say that there were many many solar days perhaps millions even billions of solar days to allow for plants to produced seeds and fruit for the next generation and so on. Another reason for many solar days within day 3 is because it could / would take many many days, years, centuries, millennia, epochs to clear the atmosphere in order to make the sun, moon, and stars visible in the vault and so they can be used as signs.
My question might seem a bit strange, but I want to establish that you fully understand the truth that a day (yō·wm) can mean any length of time that has a start and an end.
Proclaimer: In Micah 7:11, is the verse talking about a single 12 or 24 hour day? Yes or No.
Your answer is saying that it is NOT 12 or 24 hours.
Bravo. We have made progress.
You admit that DAY (yō·wm) is not always 12 or 24 hours.
The brick has been placed. I will build my case from here.
My question might seem a bit strange, but I want to establish that you fully understand the truth that a day (yō·wm) can mean any length of time that has a start and an end.
Interesting that you think you’ve just now stumbled upon this “brick” through your great interrogation skills when in reality I’ve been throwing that brick at you for years. Here is one of my first comments from when I started the Scientism vs the Bible debate in the Conspiracies thread…
Proclaimer, are you intelligent enough to figure out my example sentence about Noah?
It rained day and night on day one of the flood of Noah’s day.
I used the word “day” (Hebrew “yowm”) three times, and each of them have a different meaning. Please tell me which time means the 12 hour daylight portion of a day, which means an entire 24 hour day, and which refers to a general period of time.
But wait – there’s more…
I’ve actually been throwing the “brick” you just now “discovered” at you for FOUR YEARS!
D4T and I were trying to smarten you up on the different meanings of the word “day” 4 years ago, Proclaimer. It is no secret that the Hebrew word “yowm” – EXACTLY like the English word “day” – can be used for the 12 hour daylight portion of a day, the entire 24 hour day, or a general time period. We’ve been screaming it to you for at least four years! Look at the date of the post above!
Are you intelligent enough to understand D4T’s example above? Which is the 12 hour day, which is the 24 hour day, and which is the general period of time? (Hint: The answers are in his post!)
But then you hit him with your lame strawman argument: Lol Diggy, if you think the days of creation are literal, then you must ALSO think Jesus is coming back with a literal sword in his mouth! Ha ha!
And you’re STILL making that same lame strawman argument to me FOUR YEARS LATER!
Proclaimer: BTW, that is not a literal brick. I keep forgetting that you are a literalist sometimes.
Can you honestly not see how lame it is to assume that just because someone considers a certain Bible teaching to be literal, they must automatically believe that EVERY Bible teaching is literal? It’s a very stupid argument dude, and I’ve been trying to tell you that for at least FOUR FREAKING YEARS…
See that? FOUR YEARS AGO both I and D4T exposed your strawman argument and called you out on it… yet your diminished mental capabilities have required me and others to REPEATEDLY call you out on the same thing over and over for four years and more! Will it ever sink in?
Look at the blue box in the post above from four years ago. Even then I was baffled at your inability to grasp what we were telling you and was asking you if you REALLY couldn’t see what you were doing.
But wait – there’s still more…
You actually responded to my three questions at the bottom of the previous post FOUR YEARS AGO…
So first you admitted that since the days in the creation account include a morning and an evening, are accompanied by a number, and are directly EQUATED to six literal 24-hour days by God Himself in Ex 20:11 and 31:17, they are more likely than not to be literal 24 hour days. You ADMITTED THE TRUTH for a brief second!
But then you immediately attempted to walk back the TRUTH that you had just ADMITTED by equating the creation account with prophecies and parables… apparently oblivious to the fact that the creation account is neither a prophecy nor a parable. It is an historical account given by God to Moses.
And then, as if to purposely force the point that you are a very UNINTELLIGENT man, you asked about “Judgement Day” – which DOESN’T include mention of a morning and an evening, ISN’T accompanied by any number, and ISN’T directly equated to a literal 24-hour day by God!
So it has NONE of the three things that the creation account has – the things you had just ADMITTED make it more likely than not to be referring to literal days – but you bring it up as if it is somehow an apples to apples comparison! 🤔🤔🤔
You have either been being very DECEPTIVE for the past four years, or you are very STUPID. Since I don’t know your heart and can’t rightly judge you as being a big fat LIAR – I have no choice but to make a formal assertion that you are as dumb as a rock.
Prove me wrong in light of the evidence I’ve just shown you in this and the previous two posts. Prove to me that you are not a blathering idiot when the four years of evidence that I’ve just shown prove that you are.
Mike: SINCE I’M SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE LIGHT GOD MAKES SHINE IN OUR HEARTS AND THE LIGHT WITH WHICH GOD WILL ILLUMINATE NEW JERUSALEM IS NOT SUNLIGHT, PLEASE PROVIDE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO INSIST THAT THE LIGHT GOD MADE SHINE OUT OF DARKNESS IN GEN 1:3 MUST BE SUNLIGHT… OR CLEARLY AND DIRECTLY ADMIT THAT THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOUR ASSUMPTION.
Proclaimer: Easy Mike. Read the next verse:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
See that. Because God’s Spirit was hovering over the waters of planet earth, that means the earth was already created and by extension, the heavens were created too and the sun and the stars are part of the heavens. In fact the heavens are mentioned before the earth. Take of that as you will.’
Throughout this thread, I have thoroughly DEBUNKED at least a dozen claims such as the underlined one above – hoping that by boldly declaring your nonsense DEBUNKED, your pride would force you to try to “un-debunk” them – even though I know you can’t. My thinking was that by doing it this way, we could move along more quickly and steer this discussion towards your inevitable demise in a more timely manner. But I didn’t count on the fact that you would realize that you have no way to “un-debunk” what I have so thoroughly debunked, and therefore wouldn’t take my “pride bait”. So now I’ll have to use my MUST ANSWER questions to do what I thought challenging your pride would do more quickly. Oh well…
First of all, let me point out that you didn’t actually address my last question (at the top of this post) by offering a scriptural reason that the light in Gen 1:3 must be sunlight – or admit that you can’t. You instead offered a personal supposition that is not related to any scriptural teaching…
Proclaimer: So what is the light that separated the light from the darkness? Well that could be sunlight.
My question asked for SCRIPTURE that says it MUST BE sunlight – or an open ACKNOWLEDGEMENT from you that there exists no such scripture. Do you see how you failed to reasonably answer my question – as per the rules of the thread and your own rules of the Hot Seat? Please try to do better in the future, so we don’t have to employ a moderator.
This is my new MUST ANSWER QUESTION…
Your argument that it “could be” sunlight doesn’t align with scripture – which clearly tells us that the sun was MADE on day four. (Not “allowed to shine through a clearing atmosphere”, but MADE.) Your argument that the heaven existed in Gen 1:1 is also not scriptural, since the heaven wasn’t MADE until day two. And your argument that the existence of heaven automatically assumes the simultaneous existence of the things that currently fill heaven is not only nonsense due to the scriptures that say the sun wasn’t MADE until day four, but also fails because to make an assumption that the earliest existence of heaven would simultaneously include the sun, moon and stars means that you must also assume that the earliest existence of earth would simultaneously include dry ground, vegetation, the sea, fish, animals, and mankind – because they are also currently “a part of earth”.
The following scripture concerns day FOUR of the creation account…
Genesis 1:16-19 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven… And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Proclaimer: According to scripture, God MADE the sun, moon and stars and PLACED THEM IN HEAVEN on the FOURTH DAY OF CREATION.
Knowing now that the earliest existence of heaven DOESN’T presuppose the simultaneous existence of the sun, moon, stars or any other thing currently in it any more than the earliest existence of earth presupposes the simultaneous existence of dry land, vegetation, fish, animals, mankind or any other thing currently in it…
Please provide your SCRIPTURAL evidence that the sun, moon and stars already existed BEFORE God MADE them on day four, and that they were already a part of heaven BEFORE God placed them into the firmament of heaven on day four… or OPENLY ACNKOWLEDGE that no SCRIPTURAL evidence for your claims exists.
Proclaimer: Yes, the Bible says God created the heavens and earth in 6 days, but would it also be correct to say that God made the heavens and earth in a day? Yes / No.
No. It would be correct to say, “in THE day when God created the heaven and the earth”, or, “in THAT day God will create a new heaven and a new earth” – but no, I don’t know of any Biblical reference where day is used as a general period of time using the indefinite article “a”.
But now try to learn what D4T, I, and many others have been trying to teach you for many years… it all depends upon the context and the accompaniment of indicators like “morning”, “evening”, and numbers.
If scripture said, “back in THE day when God created the heaven and the earth”, we’d know it was talking about a general time period. If scripture said, “in the MORNING of the SECOND day when God was creating the heaven and the earth”, then we’d know that it was NOT talking about a general time period.
Are you able to understand this very significant difference yet?
Because I remember when you said that I was making this stuff up to “win the argument” about 3 weeks ago – when those screenshots I shared this morning make it clear that we were trying to teach you this exact stuff four years ago.
Do you now understand these things we’ve been trying to teach you for four years? Or do you still need a little more help with it?
Mike forgot this one thing: ‘dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day’.
So first you admitted that since the days in the creation account include a morning and an evening, are accompanied by a number, and are directly EQUATED to six literal 24-hour days by God Himself in Ex 20:11 and 31:17, they are more likely than not to be literal 24 hour days. You ADMITTED THE TRUTH for a brief second!
Incorrect again Mike.
No Mike. You hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see. You need to be better than that.
I said the word ‘day’ is more commonly used to denote a calendar day, but not always. And that was because a day for us is usually 24 hours although not always.
I also spelled out why creation days are not calendar days, because a day to God is NOT 24 hours.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Mike loses his argument that creation days are strictly 24 hours
No. It would be correct to say, “in THE day when God created the heaven and the earth”, or, “in THAT day God will create a new heaven and a new earth” – but no, I don’t know of any Biblical reference where day is used as a general period of time using the indefinite article “a”.
Mike loses his argument that creation days are strictly 24 hours.
You have just admitted that there exists the day that God created the heavens and the earth and by extension of that, if your definition of creation days are 24 hours, then that conflicts with 6 x 24 hours for the creation period because you admit to the day of creation. So which is it? 1 x 24 hour day for the creation of the heavens and earth or 6 x 24 hours days for the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Obviously, you cannot have it both ways here, yet you believe both.
Try and reconcile this Mike because a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Mike: You ADMITTED THE TRUTH for a brief second!
Proclaimer: Incorrect again Mike.
Too funny! 😅😂🤣
“You admitted the truth!”
“No I didn’t!”
😁😎
Proclaimer: I also spelled out why creation days are not calendar days, because a day to God is NOT 24 hours.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Your “Get Out of Jail Free” card has already been addressed numerous times, including a thorough debunking in post 930774 on the first page of this very thread. Unfortunately, you aren’t treating this as an actual discussion where each person freely and readily responds to the challenges of the other person, and so, as is the case with a dozen other posts on this thread, you have completely ignored post 930774.
But don’t worry. I never thought for a second you’d go down without a lot of thrashing. I’ve resigned myself to the reality that all of those debunks on page 1 that you are afraid to touch with a 10 foot pole will have to be reapplied as “Must Answer” questions as we go along.
Don’t be discouraged though… we are indeed making progress. Remember when you insisted that the “light” in Gen 1:3 had to be sunlight? But now you say, “Well… it COULD BE sunlight.” (Of course this wasn’t an actual answer to my previous “Must Answer” question – where you were supposed to show scriptural evidence that it MUST BE the sun or admit that there is no such evidence – but I let it slide because I know I’m in total control here.)
And remember when you used to say that the sun wasn’t allowed to shine through to the earth until day four? But now you realize that you can’t have “billions of years of plant evolution” on day three without sunlight, and so all of a sudden, the story is that light from the sun penetrated the gloomy atmosphere, but the sun itself couldn’t be seen until day four.
Your story will keep slowly changing like this throughout the debate, while mine will remain the same. In fact, I can’t wait to see how your story changes once it dawns on you that you can’t escape the fact that God didn’t even MAKE the sun until day four. And for this reason, I anxiously await your answer to my latest “Must Answer” question.
Proclaimer: You have just admitted that there exists the day that God created the heavens and the earth and by extension of that, if your definition of creation days are 24 hours, then that conflicts with 6 x 24 hours for the creation period because you admit to the day of creation.
No conflict at all, sir. For example, you often use the idiom, “in the day of my grandmother” as a valid example of how the English word “day” (and the Hebrew word “yom”) can refer to a general time period, right?
But you also know that the general time period you’re calling “the day of my grandmother” contains individual 24-hour days, right? So you can talk about the general time period (“in the day of granny”), but also talk about individual literal days within that general time period (“granny’s first tooth appeared on her 50th day”).
A good scriptural example would be when Jesus says the day of the coming of the Son of Man will be like the day of Noah before the flood. So “the flood of Noah’s day” would be a general time period, but we also know from scripture the exact day God opened the floodgates of heaven (or “clouds” 😅), how many exact literal days it rained, and the exact day when God shut those floodgates, right? (Gen 7:11-12)
So no, there is no contradiction. We can talk about “back in the day when God created the heaven and earth”, but we can also talk about the exact day within that general time period that God created the sun, for example.
Proclaimer: So which is it? 1 x 24 hour day for the creation of the heavens and earth or 6 x 24 hours days for the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Obviously, you cannot have it both ways here, yet you believe both.
Try and reconcile this Mike because a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
So another non-sequitur, huh? 🙄
Proclaimer, was “the flood of Noah’s day” a single 24-hour day, or 150 24-hour days? You can’t have it both ways, Mr. Double-Minded! 😅
Hmm… Maybe “the flood of Noah’s day” refers to a general time period that was comprised of 150 literal 24-hour days! 😎
Sometimes I seriously wonder about your intelligence level. I shouldn’t have to be constantly explaining such simple stuff to you.
Finally. Mike admits that a day can be something other than 24 hours.
So no, there is no contradiction. We can talk about “back in the day when God created the heaven and earth”, but we can also talk about the exact day within that general time period that God created the sun, for example.</smallBy jove I think he’s got it.
Now add in the fact that to God a day is a much longer period, and you have 6 days of creation or six stages where a thing was started and finished, and within each day of creation is any number of calendar days it takes to complete the thing started, (despite you believing there was no sun for most of it).
T think we’re done here Mike. We both agree that day is not always 24 hours just like the Hebrew dictionaries state.
This is what I love about the Hot Seat. You get progress.
Shall we discuss the flat earth now?
Further proof that Mike believes a day can be longer than 24 hours
So another non-sequitur, huh? 🙄
Proclaimer, was “the flood of Noah’s day” a single 24-hour day, or 150 24-hour days? You can’t have it both ways, Mr. Double-Minded! 😅
Hmm… Maybe “the flood of Noah’s day” refers to a general time period that was comprised of 150 literal 24-hour days! 😎
Sometimes I seriously wonder about your intelligence level. I shouldn’t have to be constantly explaining such simple stuff to you.
Fantastic.
So you also believe that the Day of Creation was a single day, but not a 24 hour day. This is great. So day is not a strict 24 hour day. It depends on the context. I am sure you agree with the following:
- The day that Jesus was baptized is a 24 hour day. (We both agree.)
- The day that God created the heavens and the earth could be any amount of time. (We both agree.)
Mission accomplished. Let it be publicly known that Mike agrees with Proclaimer that the word for ‘day’ in Hebrew can be any amount of time required. What determines it as a specific 24 hour day is the context. And the context according to Mike is God creating the heavens and the earth with the sun not even being created. Thus, the context shows that the days are NOT 24 hours long.
Resolved!
Recap: Both Proclaimer and Mike agree that the Hebrew word for ‘day’ can be any length of time.
Both Proclaimer and Mike agree that the Hebrew word for ‘day’ can be any length of time required for a thing that is started to finish. By that definition which we both agree to, the days of creation are not 24 hours long unless the context requires it. And it certainly does not for these main reasons.
God created the heavens and the earth where there is no man for most of the days, and according to Mike, not even a sun. So the context clearly does NOT demand strict 24 hour days. In fact, this would be the clearest example of ‘days’ that are not 24 hours long as judged by the context.
A thousand years is like a 24 hour period
Your “Get Out of Jail Free” card has already been addressed numerous times, including a thorough debunking in post 930774 on the first page of this very thread. Unfortunately, you aren’t treating this as an actual discussion where each person freely and readily responds to the challenges of the other person, and so, as is the case with a dozen other posts on this thread, you have completely ignored post 930774.
Mike, you are still wrong no matter which way you cut it.
First point to mention is your explanation is an assumption. You translate ‘day’ to strictly mean a 24 hour period and then it would read that a calendar day is like a thousand years to God. But it also reads that a thousand years is like a 24 hour period too in this scenario. So your version of 2 Peter 3:8 states this:
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a 24 hour period is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a 24 hour period.
Let’s put this together to isolate the statement you are making that is relevant to my rebuttal.
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: A thousand years is like a 24 hour period.
There you have it. A single day to God is like a thousand years, no matter which way you want to cut this.
So the creation days are NOT 24 hours long because the context says otherwise.
Mike: So no, there is no contradiction. We can talk about “back in the day when God created the heaven and earth”, but we can also talk about the exact day within that general time period that God created the sun, for example.
Proclaimer: We both agree that day is not always 24 hours just like the Hebrew dictionaries state.
I’ve been telling you that very thing for at least four years now – as attested by those screenshots I posted yesterday – and my explanation/position on the subject hasn’t changed a lick in all that time.
Now PLEASE HONOR YOUR OWN RULES AND THE RULES OF THIS THREAD BY ANSWERING my latest QUESTION BEFORE YOU POST ANYTHING ELSE on this thread or any other thread. Thanks.
Proclaimer: God created the heavens and the earth where there is no man for most of the days, and according to Mike, not even a sun. So the context clearly does NOT demand strict 24 hour days. In fact, this would be the clearest example of ‘days’ that are not 24 hours long as judged by the context.
It’s the Bible itself that says God didn’t MAKE the sun until the fourth day. And the creation of the sun on day four didn’t originate the earth’s day/night cycles. The day/night cycles began on the first day of creation. God called these cycles days, and they’ve been called that ever since. Each of them had a single morning and a single evening during the creation week – just as each of them has a single morning and evening to this very day.
Please answer my latest question before posting anything else. Thanks.
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