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THIS IS A PRIVATE THREAD.
UNLESS YOU ARE MIKE OR PROCLAIMER, DO NOT POST ANYTHING HERE.
In my opinion, Proclaimer has dishonored the spirit and intent of the first Bible vs Scientism Hot Seat thread by allowing other posters, inserting off-topic issues, and turning it into a regular thread like the one we were already on when he refused to directly answer my questions in the first place – the very reason I started the Hot Seat thread!
The RULES of this thread are as follows – in keeping with Proclaimer’s own Hot Seat rules:
- This will be a one question for one question debate.
- I will begin with ONE question.
- Proclaimer must DIRECTLY and REASONABLY answer that question BEFORE he posts a single word on any other thread on HN (or starts a new thread). This is in keeping with his own Hot Seat rules that say, “The Hot Seat has a special rule that allows a member to ask another member a fair question that demands an answer. If the member does not answer, then he/she will be banned from the forums until they answer the question… Banning a member until they reasonably answer a question helps everybody.”
- He can take as much time to answer it as he wants – but he cannot post anything on any other thread UNTIL he DOES answer it.
- After a REASONABLE answer has been given, Proclaimer can ask me ONE question THAT IS ON THE TOPIC. His question must DIRECTLY relate to something the Bible says about our world as opposed to (or in alignment with) what Scientism says about our world. For example, since the Bible doesn’t mention anything about “air pressure”, “boats disappearing over the horizon”, or “ISS photos of the earth”, he is not allowed to ask about those kinds of things.
- Once Proclaimer asks his ON-TOPIC question (preferably including a Bible citation so we know it is something the Bible talks about), I will have the same rules, meaning that I cannot post a single word on any other thread until I REASONABLY answer his question.
- Then it will be my turn again, and the SAME RULES will apply throughout.
- Each post can include “supplementary” questions throughout, which the opponent can choose to answer or not. If the post contains more than one question, the ONE question that MUST be answered must be specified clearly with a different color, or size, bolded, or otherwise made clear to the opponent that it is the “Must Answer” question in the post.
- The thread will end when BOTH OF US decide to end it. One of us alone cannot end the thread.
- Importing questions or comments from other threads is okay, as long as they are ON-TOPIC and contain subject matter that is actually discussed in the scriptures.
- If EITHER OF US gets to a point where we feel strongly that our opponent is not answering our question in a direct, honest, reasonable or timely manner, or asking an unfair question, we are allowed to ask Adam (gadam) to act as a temporary moderator to rule on that matter – or any other matter that can’t be resolved by us. If Adam is not available or willing, we will ask Lightenup.
- Adam and/or Lightenup cannot add their own input to the discussion, but only rule whether or not one person has sufficiently answered the other’s question or asked a fair one. If not, they can suggest a pattern of wording that would be acceptable. If they rule that the question has been sufficiently answered, or that the question was fair, the person who asked for their judgment must abide by their decision.
Mike: PROCLAIMER, IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON FOR YOU TO SUSPECT THAT THE DAILY SUN-EARTH CYCLES – OR THE LIGHT-DARK CYCLES THAT PRECEDED THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN – WERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN 24-HOUR CYCLES DURING THE CREATION PERIOD? IF SO, PLEASE PRESENT THAT SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE.
PROCLAIMER: WHAT? LOL. DAY AND NIGHT CYCLES BEFORE THE SUN?
Mike: Yes Proclaimer, according to the Bible, there were day-night cycles before the sun.
Genesis 1:3-5… And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”
And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE THAT HE CALLED THE LIGHT “DAY”, AND THE DARKNESS “NIGHT”?
Proclaimer: Yes, I can see the light is called day and the darkness night.
Mike: AND ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE THAT HE CALLED THE VERY FIRST DAY-NIGHT CYCLE, WHICH INCLUDED A SINGLE MORNING AND A SINGLE EVENING, THE FIRST “DAY”?
Proclaimer: Yes, it is called a day.
Mike: PROCLAIMER, ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THE SCRIPTURAL WORDS ABOVE THAT, BEFORE THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN, GOD CREATED LIGHT AND SEPARATED IT FROM THE DARKNESS?
Proclaimer: Sorry Mike. God created the heavens and the earth. The sun is part of the heavens.
Yes, the sun is a part of “heaven and earth” today. But so are men. Surely you don’t think that the statement in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth”, means that men came already included. And since I know you don’t think that, there is no SCRIPTURAL reason to think that the heaven and earth automatically came with sun, moon, and star accessories either.
Genesis 1:1 is the overview of the creation of heaven, earth, vegetation, animals, man, and everything else in them. The account of how and in which order God created these things ends with a summary in Genesis 2:1-3. Let me show you how Moses laid it out…
Genesis 1:1 – 2:3… In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…
GOD DID THIS ON DAY 1, THEN THAT ON DAY 2, THEN THIS OTHER THING ON DAY 3, AND THIS DIFFERENT THING ON DAY 4, AND SOMETHING ELSE ON DAY 5, AND THE LAST STUFF ON DAY 6…
Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
It’s the story of creation that begins with an opening title that let’s us know what we’re going to read about, and then ends with a “and that’s how the creation of the heaven, the earth, and everything in them went down” finale.
It is like in Gen 2…
Notice in the blue box that the translators add their own title to let us know what we’re going to be reading about in the following words.
Notice in the red box that Moses makes his own title/opening statement that let’s us know what we’re going to be reading about in the following words.
Notice how in the green box, the garden is already planted and Adam is placed in it… although it’s not until the following words that we learn HOW the garden came to be planted with trees. That is just like Gen 1:1. Look at the comparison…
God created the heaven and the earth… and the following words tell us how He did it.
God planted a garden… and the following words tell us how He did it.
Now notice the orange box. After already giving us the overview of how God made a garden and put Adam in it, we are given the DETAILS about this garden… and Adam is mentioned again after the details when he is ACTUALLY placed into the garden.
Again, compare with the creation account…
God created the heaven and the earth… then the details… then the “thus everything I just described was created” ending.
God made a garden for the man… then the details about the garden… then the “thus he put Adam in the garden I just described” ending.
And we KNOW that this is the case with Gen 1:1-2:3 because God didn’t even create the heaven until day 2… five verses later!
So no Proclaimer, your assumption that if there was a heaven there had to be a sun doesn’t fly in the Scientism account (which alleges a heaven that existed for 10 billion years before there was a sun), or in the Biblical account (which says the heaven didn’t exist until day 2, and the sun didn’t exist until day 4).
Your argument, “The sun is part of the heavens” holds as much water as me arguing that man was around from the very creation of the earth because “Man is a part of the earth”… which is to say no water at all.
Your first rescue device has been thoroughly refuted.
Mike complains about this topic being a dogs breakfast
In my opinion, Proclaimer has dishonored the spirit and intent of the first Bible vs Scientism Hot Seat thread by allowing other posters, inserting off-topic issues, and turning it into a regular thread like the one we were already on when he refused to directly answer my questions in the first place – the very reason I started the Hot Seat thread!
It was you who created the confusion. First off, you stipulated no rules apart and when others joined in, the admin offered to separate out the other commentators to their own discussion where they could provide feedback. But you then changed your tune and wanted gadam to stay.
Just take responsibility for this and move on like a man. Further, there is a question that I would love you to answer in the other topic. It is among many questions you have ignored over the last couple of years. Mike, man up.
Anyway, it looks like my turn to ask a question. I answered three of your questions. But I will be gracious and ask one so this topic starts with your desired format.
Proclaimer: If you are saying that the sun was created on the fourth day, then I contest that.
Then you are contesting, not me, but the Bible itself.
Proclaimer: What happened on the 4th day is that the sun was placed in the vault. So looking up from the earth’s surface, you can see the sun in the sky.
Yes, the sun was placed in the domed, vaulted firmament on day 4. But according to scripture, it was also MADE on that very same day it was placed into the firmament.
So let the Bible judge between you and me on the creation of heaven and the creation of the sun.
Genesis 1:6-7… And God said, “Let there be firmament between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” So God made the firmament and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so. God called the firmament “heaven“. And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
So this proves that Gen 1:1 is an overview, ie: a title that let’s us know what is about to be described in more detail. We know this because both the heaven and the earth are mentioned in 1:1, but the heaven wasn’t even MADE until 1:7… on day two.
Genesis 1:14-19… And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years. And let them serve as lights in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.
God set these lights in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth, to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
So according to the Biblical text, God MADE the heaven on day 2, and MADE the sun, moon, and stars on day 4.
This is my FIRST question of this thread, and must be reasonably answered by you before you post anything anywhere else on this site.
Proclaimer, do you agree with the Biblical account quoted above that clearly says that God made the firmament and named it “heaven” on day 2, and that He made the sun, moon, and stars and placed them in the firmament that he named “heaven” on day 4?
Proclaimer: Anyway, it looks like my turn to ask a question. I answered three of your questions. But I will be gracious and ask one so this topic starts with your desired format.
Actually, you STILL haven’t answered either of the first two questions I asked in the other thread. And the “three” that you FINALLY answered just yesterday were all one question broken into three.
I posted a scriptural passage and asked, “Can you see A? Can you see B? Can you see C?” I could have worded it as one question and asked, “Can you see A, B, and C in the passage above?” So don’t get it twisted. I haven’t overexerted you. All five of my questions were simple Yes or No questions – just like the first one in this thread is.
Now, I have started this thread and set the rules which state that I will ask the first question. I have done so. You are not allowed to post anything on HN until you answer it REASONABLY.
And if you want to argue about it, then go back and actually ANSWER the VERY FIRST question in the other thread that’s been there for a month. Because according to the spirit of the contest, you were supposed to have answered THAT ONE before posting anything else.
Mike should keep the topic tidy and ask must answer questions in turn
You might need to look again. I answered a ton of questions from you recently. I would have quoted the question and followed with my answer. But I can see you are making the same error. Posting and asking questions out of turn and creating another mess. I wonder when I can ask a question that is not related to me answering you on your question. Lol. I forgive you. And I will still hold your hand if needed.
Answer
PROCLAIMER, DO YOU AGREE WITH THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT QUOTED ABOVE THAT CLEARLY SAYS THAT GOD MADE THE FIRMAMENT AND NAMED IT “HEAVEN” ON DAY 2, AND THAT HE MADE THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS AND PLACED THEM IN THE FIRMAMENT THAT HE NAMED “HEAVEN” ON DAY 4?
Yes. God made the sky that we see today, yes. That doesn’t mean there was no sky at all, but that God made the sky we see with the sun and moon visible in the vault and the stars visible at night in the vault. Yes God did that.
Imagine if we terraformed the planet Venus. So we somehow cleared the sky so that you could see the sun and see the stars at night and the intense heat was no longer trapped in the atmosphere but radiated back into space. Then when standing on the surface of Venus and looking up at the celestial objects, we could lay claim to making the sky and placing the sun in the vault. Remember that when the bible talks about heaven and earth it also often mentions the sea and the fountains of the deep in the same breath. So the earth can be just the land or the whole planet just the same as today it can mean these things and even the soil on the land is called earth. Thus, the sky is the vault, which is just the local sky. This local sky is not the same as the whole universe / sky / heavens. But it is certainly part of it. And we know that God had already created the heavens and earth in the beginning. What happened after that were local changes to the sky, the land, and the sea to prepare the planet for life and eventually man.
So God created everything. Then from the perspective of earth, he altered the sky, the land, the sea, and the fountains.
You just need to see that from the earth we still see the heavens, but not everything. You can test that out by pointing a powerful telescope in the sky. There is much more out there than visible in our dome or vault.
Yes. Okay, I answered your first question… my turn again. 😂 Just kidding. You can ask me all the questions you want. Just please cite the scriptural verse or passage that your question concerns.
Oh, and I think it’s fair that after answering the other guy’s “MUST ANSWER” question, there should be a time limit of one week for that person to ask his own question. If he doesn’t, the first guy can ask another “MUST ANSWER” question. Otherwise, if someone was getting backed into a corner and didn’t want to be exposed, he could just refuse to ask his question forever – and the other guy wouldn’t be able to carry on with his “MUST ANSWER” questions.
Is it possible for you to add that to first page as the 13th rule?
Question
Why did fruit and seeds only take a single day, (day 3) to appear, when in our day it takes many weeks and months to produce fruit on mature trees.
God said, ‘Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the third day.’
Mike. In your lifetime, have you ever observed trees or vegetation bear fruit in a single calendar day.
My question then is:
Why did fruit and seeds only take a single day, (day 3) to appear, when in our day it takes many weeks and months to produce fruit on mature trees.
Have you ever observed an apple appear in a single day? I planted about 20 small fruit trees 10 years ago and some trees are yet to produce any fruit at all because the are not mature enough.
I hope you can see that a day to God is a very long time from our perspective. And on day 3, trees and plants existed for quite some time and produced seeds and fruit. Even seed production doesn’t take a single day does it.
Further, how many generations of plants did God permit to produced seeds and fruit before moving to the next stage. It could well have been thousands or millions of years. Earth might have been a plant paradise with no animals or people. And why not? Plants breathe both CO2 and O2. Further, God is eternal so what’s the hurry. He has all the time you can imagine. More than that, he also has plenty to do. It’s not like planet earth was his only project. The universe is filled with worlds. There are countless angels and other beings too that obviously live elsewhere.
Another reminder that a day for God is different to our 24 hour day
What did you get up to today Mike. Obviously a day for us is 24 hours because we awake and then we retire each day which has everything to do with the sun and our biological clocks which are wired around that.
But God has no such limitation. He is always awake. He is eternal. Ever existing and conscious. Thus a day to Him is when he does this thing, stops, and then does that thing. That is more like a day to God IMO.
Note: I will be asking various questions and making challenges throughout this thread. You are free to answer all questions, address all challenges, and rebuke all of my claims… as if we are having a normal, respectable, back-and-forth discussion. But I will make it clear to you which question is my “Must Answer” question.
Proclaimer: God said, ‘Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And it was so… the third day.’
Mike. In your lifetime, have you ever observed trees or vegetation bear fruit in a single calendar day.
My question then is:
Why did fruit and seeds only take a single day, (day 3) to appear, when in our day it takes many weeks and months to produce fruit on mature trees.
I have never observed such an event, but Jonah did…
Jonah 4… 6So the LORD God appointed a vine, and it grew up to provide shade over Jonah’s head to ease his discomfort…
7When dawn came the next day, God appointed a worm that attacked the plant so that it withered.
10But the LORD said, “You cared about the plant, which you neither tended nor made grow. It sprang up in a night and perished in a night.
God could fill the Sahara desert with mature fruit trees in an instant if He wanted to – just by saying, “Let there be…” When Jesus healed the blind and the lame, it wasn’t like they had to undergo surgeries and years of physical therapy, right? So why would you think that God would be constrained by time when creating the heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them? He could create a parallel world right this second – complete with plants, animals and men – if He wanted to.
On the other hand, how do YOU explain day three in your understanding? You say the days in Gen 1 are long periods of time, and that the sun didn’t shine through to earth until the fourth long period of time, right? How then do you explain a long period of time where fruiting plants thrived before the appearance of the sun?
Mike: PROCLAIMER, DO YOU AGREE WITH THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT QUOTED ABOVE THAT CLEARLY SAYS THAT GOD MADE THE FIRMAMENT AND NAMED IT “HEAVEN” ON DAY 2, AND THAT HE MADE THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS AND PLACED THEM IN THE FIRMAMENT THAT HE NAMED “HEAVEN” ON DAY 4?
Proclaimer: Yes. God made the sky that we see today, yes. That doesn’t mean there was no sky at all, but that God made the sky we see with the sun and moon visible in the vault and the stars visible at night in the vault. Yes God did that.
Actually, the scriptural words say that God MADE the firmament – which He called HEAVEN – on day 2… and that God MADE the sun, moon, and stars and placed them in heaven on day 4. For personal reasons, you have decided that the word “made” in these verses don’t mean what they mean everywhere else in the scriptures. You irrationally claim that the words “God made” mean “God altered“, or “God allowed to shine through to earth“. It’s obvious to me that you have no scriptural reason to make such a claim, but for the sake of honesty and truth, it would be nice to have you either present your scriptural reasons – or honestly admit on the record that you make these claims for purely secular reasons. Because after all, that is the truth of the matter – and you should be man enough to admit it and defend it.
I, on the other hand, take the rational stance that the events described in Genesis 1 begin with an preliminary statement in 1:1, and end in a summary statement in 2:1-3. My rational understanding is backed up by scripture (while yours is refuted) in the following ways…
1. The preliminary statement says that in the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. You claim that these words mean that the sun, moon, and stars were already in existence, because they are a part of heaven.
But Proclaimer, if the words of Gen 1:1 mean that the sun, stars, and moon already existed because they are a part of heaven, then those same words must logically likewise mean that dry land, plants, fish, land animals, and mankind also already existed, because they are a part of earth. You can’t logically say that “God created heaven” means the heaven automatically already included the sun, moon and stars unless you are equally willing to say that “God created earth” means the earth automatically already included dry land, plants, fish, land animals, and mankind.
Your argument is debunked.
2. You exclude Gen 1:1 from the six days of creation with this same logic, and with your claims that the six days refer to the time during which God “terraformed” the earth and “altered” the heaven – which you say were both already in existence.
But Proclaimer, in both Ex 20:11 and 31:17, God Himself INCLUDES the very CREATION of both the heaven and the earth WITHIN the same six days of creation.
Your argument is debunked.
3. In Mark 10:6, Jesus taught that “from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female”. This lends authoritative support to what Berean taught you in another thread, ie: the “beginning” spoken of in Gen 1:1 refers to the entire six days of creation. It does NOT refer to a separate time when the heaven and earth (and sun, moon, and stars) all already existed prior to the events of Gen 1:2 through 2:3.
Your argument is debunked.
4. According to Gen 1:6-8, God didn’t even create the firmament, which He named “Heaven”, until the second day. This further supports my rational argument that Gen 1:1 is a preliminary statement alluding to the events that follow it – and not a stand alone statement meaning that the heaven and earth had already been created. It would make no sense for God to tell Moses that He created the heaven before the events of day 1, but then also created the heaven on day 2.
Your argument is debunked.
5. According to Gen 1:14-19, God didn’t even create the sun, moon, and stars until the fourth day. This clearly refutes your claim that the sun, moon, and stars were already in existence before the events of day 1 – since it would be absurd for God to tell Moses that He created certain things on day 4 that had already been in existence since before day 1.
Your argument is debunked.
6. Gen 1:17 clearly says that God not only MADE these lights on day four, but that He PLACED them “in the firmament of heaven” on that same day. Your claim that these lights were already in existence prior to the events of day 1, and that God simply made them visible from earth by placing them in a vault is not only unscriptural, but doesn’t align with the doctrine of Scientism that you’re trying to protect anyway. Where were these lights before God “placed them in the vault”? Does Scientism allow for the sun, moon and stars being at other locations, and then being relocated all at once at some other time?
Your argument is debunked.
Proclaimer: What did you get up to today Mike. Obviously a day for us is 24 hours because we awake and then we retire each day which has everything to do with the sun and our biological clocks which are wired around that.
But God has no such limitation. He is always awake. He is eternal. Ever existing and conscious. Thus a day to Him is when he does this thing, stops, and then does that thing. That is more like a day to God IMO.
Great, let’s finally directly address the biggest elephant in the room – without the ability of you to run away and hide.
2 Peter 3:8… But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
You have been using this one metaphorical verse about how God doesn’t experience time like we do as a “Get Out of Jail Free” card throughout this entire discussion – as if it vindicates you and somehow nullifies the creation account which God Himself relayed to Moses. So let’s do delve into this elephant, shall we?
1. Do you notice the word “and” that Peter used in the verse above? Suffice to say that Peter wasn’t saying, “The sky is blue AND the sky is blue.” He wasn’t repeating himself, Proclaimer. He was contrasting two different things. Here is the gist…
What may seem like a single 24-hour day to God could seem to us as a very long thousand year period – AND – what may seem like a very long thousand year period to God could seem to us as if only a single 24-hour day went by.
Do you understand that it works BOTH ways? So while you promote the first part because you think it give you wiggle room to say that the “days” in Gen 1 could be six “thousand year periods (365,000 times longer than an actual day)”, you ignore the flip side of the coin that says those same “days” in Gen 1 could equally be six 1/365,000ths of an actual day.
And 1/365,000th of a 24-hour normal day amounts to about a half of a second. So IF someone were ignorant enough to try and use Peter’s metaphorical statement as a way of pretending that the “days” in Gen 1 were six “thousand year periods”, they would have to also acknowledge the possibility that they were six “half-second periods”.
That means it would be equally possible for the six days of Gen 1 to be “six thousand years”… OR… “three seconds”.
And if that ignorant person were to ignore the “thousand years” that Peter stated, and understand his statement as referring to “any huge period of time”, that person must equally accept the possibility that it could also refer to “any TINY period of time” – because Peter’s statement swings both ways.
Your argument is debunked.
2. In another thread, you said that “days were created for us, not for God”, and, “things need to be described in a way that the audience can understand”.
BINGO!
You also joked that it’s not like God has a huge sun of His own that dictates days for Him.
Again, BINGO!
Proclaimer, the very concept of a “day” – and the word “day” itself – were created by God for the sole and exclusive purposes of the earth and those who dwell upon it.
If you eliminate the earth, there is no “day”. There is no “day/night cycle”. There is no “light/dark cycle”. These things were created for the earth and those who live here.
So now think about what you yourself have pointed out…
A. The concept and the word “day” have no meaning to God except when it relates to earth and those who live here.
B. A smart person will describe things in a way that his audience will understand them.
So when God tells human beings that He created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days…
A. God knows that the word “day” He is using only has meaning in terms of the day/night cycles of the earth.
B. God knows that earth “days” include one evening and one morning (things that mean nothing to Him in heaven).
C. God is smart and therefore knows how to describe things in terms that His audience will understand.
…what on earth would make you believe for a second that God wasn’t talking about literal earth/human days – especially when He had to have known that that’s exactly how His audience would understand His terminology?
Your 2 Peter rescue device doesn’t work for you the way you pretended it did for both of the reasons I just listed.
What we have in Gen 1, Ex 20, and Ex 31 is a smart God communicating a timeline – TO HUMANS – using a word that only has meaning when it comes to earth/human day-night/morning-evening cycles… knowing full well that those HUMANS to whom He was communicating would understand that word AS referring to normal earth/human day-night/morning-evening cycles.
Your argument is debunked.
Here is my “Must Answer” question for you…
Exodus 20:11… For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day…
Exodus 31:17… for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he rested…
Proclaimer, do you agree with God Himself in the scriptures above that the very creation of the heaven and earth is INCLUDED in the six days of creation, and not EXCLUDED from those six days as you’ve previously claimed?
Mike believes that the plants were created, produced fruit, then produced seeds, and reproduced numerous times in a SINGLE 24 hour period
Okay, so your answer is that God made all the plants and they then bore fruit and produced seeds in a 24 hour period. Thank you for being honest. People can now see how unscientific you are.
God’s Spirit was hovering over earth, so that means that God had already created the heavens and earth at this point
Question from Mike
PROCLAIMER, DO YOU AGREE WITH GOD HIMSELF IN THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE THAT THE VERY CREATION OF THE HEAVEN AND EARTH IS INCLUDED IN THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION, AND NOT EXCLUDED FROM THOSE SIX DAYS AS YOU’VE PREVIOUSLY CLAIMED?Answer
I agree that it says “in six days the LORD made heaven and earth” in multiple places in the bible.
But I am not sure if this is referring to all the universe, or from the perspective of just the land, sea, and sky etc .
We both agree that God created the cosmos. And what we read is that God made the heavens and the earth. This is mentioned first.
On Day one, he hovered over a watery planet and created day and night suggesting that the earth was now lit by the sun. So one way to read this is that he was terraforming the planet after its creation.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.My first takeaway is this. God’s Spirit was hovering over earth, so that means that God had already created the heavens and earth at this point which is what we see written in the previous verse. My second takeaway is that God created the heavens and earth before the first day is wrapped up.
Yes you do see that now because once pointed out it is obvious.
Now for my question which will hopefully be in the next post.
yō·wm / day has at least two main usages
Some today believe and teach that the entire universe was created in six 24 hour periods because yō·wm has been translated as ‘day’ in English.
While I am not saying this is an incorrect translation, what I am saying is that yō·wm / day has at least two main usages as I will demonstrate. This applies to both English and Biblical Hebrew. The meanings are:
- 24 hours (Sometimes 12 or so hours if night is mentioned).
- a longer period time depending on the context.
It’s similar to the word man. It too has two meanings or usage depending on context.
- man = mankind
- man = male.
So Eve is man, but she is not male right. So, if you believed man only meant male, then you might argue against using it to describe mankind. I feel this is similar to what you are doing with the word ‘day’. You would then say things like, the text supporting you because it says ‘the man’ and ‘the woman’. Despite knowing that God made man both male and female. Once again Mike, context is everything.
So now we will look at examples of the word ‘day’ where the meaning is NOT 12 or 24 hours.
Examples
- Everyone knows how talented he was back in the day
- In my grandfather’s day, there was no television.
- This is the day of social media.
- Micah 7:11: ‘The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
Question
In Micah 7:11, is the verse talking about a single 12 or 24 hour day? Yes or No.
Proclaimer: Micah 7:11: ‘The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt.
In Micah 7:11, is the verse talking about a single 12 or 24 hour day? Yes or No.
I think it refers to Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, so NO. But what if the Micah prophecy had said this…
In the evening of the first day of rebuilding your walls, people will come to you from Assyria, and by the morning of the second day of rebuilding your walls, they will begin to arrive from the cities of Egypt.
Now are we talking about literal days? Of course we are – because we have included morning and evening and have numbered the days.
In Genesis 1, every single day is identified with a number, and every one of those days included a single morning and a single evening. That tells us they are literal days.
And when God later directly equates the days of creation with six literal earth/human days by saying the Israelites will work six days and rest on the seventh BECAUSE He worked six days and rested on the seventh, then there is no longer any question in the matter.
And when we consider that the very concept and word “day” was created to identify a single day/night cycle on earth, and the concept and word holds no meaning outside of the earth or human beings, a literal day is the only thing God could have meant in Gen 1.
And when we further include your own point that God would have spoken to His audience in terms that they would understand, a literal day is clearly what God meant since a literal day is clearly what His audience understood.
Your argument is debunked.
Proclaimer: Okay, so your answer is that God made all the plants and they then bore fruit and produced seeds in a 24 hour period. Thank you for being honest. People can now see how unscientific you are.
My answer included SCRIPTURE in which God created a tree overnight from nothing just to give Jonah some shade for one day. I asked in the other thread what you think God’s limit is for producing a full-grown tree in a single day. Is He limited to just one tree? Two trees? Ten trees in a day? A hundred? A thousand? A million?
How many full grown trees exactly do YOU place as God’s limit for a single day? (I noticed you didn’t answer that question – as usual.)
Proclaimer: I see a lot of noise in your posts above.
You would do well to read every word of that “noise” – for it is the thorough debunking of many of the arguments you’ve made (and keep making) throughout this discussion. I notice you weren’t able to make any arguments against my debunking – so those points remain debunked until you do.
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