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Hi everyone!
There has been some questions raised recently as to the topic Preterism, is it a true doctrine or is it false?
Personally I believe from what I have seen is that it takes away the blessed hope of Jesus physical return and the resurrection or transformation of our bodies to be made like unto his glorious body at his appearing.
One of the arguments say that to be a futurist (those who do not believe all Biblical prophesy has been fulfilled) then you still believe in “hades” and that the children of God would have to still go there.
Thinker who is a Preterist says in another thread..
Quote (thethinker @ May 22 2009,13:04) If you are correct that death has not yet been destroyed then hades still exists. And if hades still exists then we will not go straight to heaven. We will sleep in hades until Christ's second coming. This is not possible. In the new covenant age the saints of God go straight to heaven to their new immortal bodies (2 Cor. 4:15-5:5). Why does it have to be that when a child of God leaves the body he would have to go to “hades” if hades still exists. Our bodies are merely temples that we live in.
Paul said…
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
Scriptures clearly teach that believers go home to be with the Lord when their physical bodies die..
If Death and Hell have been destroyed in the lake of fire already then why do we still see men dieing?
Thinker quotes these scriptures out of context IMO.
Quote (thethinker @ May 22 2009,13:04) O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?
Here are the same scriptures in their context…Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. “When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true”: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:51-57
Notice Paul says “When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, “THEN THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN WILL COME TRUE:”
Then he says “WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR VICTORY? WHERE, O DEATH, IS YOUR STING?“
Now of course the Preterist believes that these words are for the Jewish Christians only and not for us. IMO this is a lie and takes away the blessed hope of any Christian having a “incorruptible Body” like unto his glorious body.
All one has to do is read the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians and they will see that these things have not come to pass for the believers yet because for one we do not see any one of these saints walking around in their corruptible bodies in the earth, and since when we get these new bodys we will never “physically die” again then we know that the early Christians have not obtained them yet for that is done in the resurrection at the last Trump which is the begining of the end.
Secondly, Preterist also claim that the end has already come and all these things has come to pass, however I believe that this denies Paul’s very own words that claim that when the end comes Jesus will hand over the Kingdom back to the Father and God will be all in all.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” [fn] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 1 Cor 15:22-27
A few things to note about these verses are;
1.In Adam all die and in Christ all will be made alive.
Thinker has confessed that he is not in the Body of Christ. But what else could this mean since to be in Christ you would be a part of his body?2.The End will come after he destroys all enemy’s including the last one death, when this is done he hands the Kingdom back to the Father.
Preterist believe the end has come yet do they believe that Jesus has handed the Kingdom back over to the Father?“When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL. 1 Cor 15:28
Has this happened yet? Is God all in all yet?
This is a huge topic and there is much more than this.
What do others think?
Blessings WJ
Hi All
Here is more information that I came across. Also there is a debate that is very interesting for those who care to read.
“Preterism is the theory that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled. The second coming, resurrection, and last judgment, have been fulfilled in a mystical sense in AD70 — the destruction of Jerusalem. According to preterists, we are now living in the “New Heaven and New Earth.” The resurrection is not of the body. Nothing remains to be fulfilled prophetically.
The weight of the preterist interpretation stands almost exclusively on the statements in the New Testament regarding the nearness of Christ's coming. Preterists insist that such statements as, “behold I come quickly,” demand that Christ's coming occur in a very short period of time, within the lifetimes of at least some of the Apostles. But in holding this opinion, they are forced to deny the plain sense of the details of Christ's coming.
Rather than Christ's appearing in the clouds in power and glory, with all nations of the world witnessing the event, Christ is said to have come invisibly in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Consequently, preterists hold mostly to an allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures. Not only prophecy, but even historical narratives in some cases.
The passages alleged to teach a first century second coming can be divided into three kinds. First, there are some verses in the Gospels where Jesus made certain direct statements about His coming. Secondly, the expectancy of the Apostles themselves, that they could live to see Jesus' coming, can be inferred from certain statements they made. Both futurists and preterists agree that Paul and perhaps other Apostles expected to live to see the second coming. And this expectation was passed on to the local churches in the first century. Thirdly, several passages speak of Jesus' coming as “soon” or “near.” Preterists claim that these passages require Jesus' coming within a very short period of time.
Futurists need to address these passages, and explain how the Apostles could hold such an expectancy without being in error themselves, while maintaining futurism. In this series of articles, we will put forward the biblical scenario that explains all these things without calling into question the credibility of Jesus or the Apostles.
The preterism section is divided into three parts. The first part contains articles proving preterism wrong, and proving the biblical view — futurism. The second section deals in greater detail with the arguments of presteists from specific passages of Scripture. These are listed by referrence. The third section is an online debate, preterism vs. futurism, between Samuel Frost and Tim Warner. The debate clearly demonstrates the heretical tendencies of preterism. The most important article is the postscript to the debate, which summarizes why preterism must be rejected as heresy.“
Click here for source and the Debate.
Blessings WJ
WoeshippingJesus said:
Quote Why does it have to be that when a child of God leaves the body he would have to go to “hades” if hades still exists. Our bodies are merely temples that we live in. Hi WJ,
God's saints were still “sleeping” even in Paul's day (1 Thessalonians 4:13-15). But the time was soon to come when God's people would no longer sleep but go straight to heaven to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7)WJ said:
Quote Paul said… We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
Scriptures clearly teach that believers go home to be with the Lord when their physical bodies die..
You are overlooking two facts that Paul stated.
1. Paul was speaking eschatologically (To be present with the Lord immediately was still future when Paul said this though it was soon to come).
2. To be present with the Lord was to be present in A BODY FROM HEAVEN (5:1-6). Paul said that we cannot be in the Lord's presence naked. We must have a body.
The time was coming soon when all the saints that slept in Jesus would be raised out of hades and put on their heavenly bodies. All those alive after that would just go straight to heaven to their bodies from heaven WITHOUT SLEEPING. The bodies of the saints that slept disintegrated long before they were raised from hades. And the bodies of those who are “caught up” will also deteriorate.
All who died before AD70 were raised from hades. Then hades was cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returned. Now all His saints who are alive and remain are “caught up” to heaven immediately. If I was in a car accident and my vehicle exploded I would immediately be “raptured” to heaven in a heavenly body. I cannot be in Christ's presence a naked soul. My earthly body will be vaporized in the fire.
Look at Paul's statements IN THEIR CONTEXT. He said that our earthly bodies will dissolve and that when they do we will be given a body from heaven that is ETERNAL (2 Cor. 4:16-5:6).
In the first century the bodies of Christians were torched to light the streets of the city of Rome. Their bodies were reduced to ashes and the vapors were soaked up by the plants and trees. Their bodies were DISSOLVED. Paul said that they were to be given bodies that will not dissolve and that those bodies are NOT from this earth but from heaven,
Quote For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Cor. 5:1) The expression not made with hands means “NOT OF THIS CREATION” (Heb. 9:11). When we leave this earth we will instantly receive our bodies that are not of this creation. Our earthly bodies will be eaten by the bugs unless they are destroyed some other way like being burned in a fire or by cremation.
thinker
Hi TT,
You say
“But the time was soon to come when God's people would no longer sleep but go straight to heaven to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:7)”But those who sleep will not go 'straight to heaven' but meet Jesus in the air.
You have absorbed a popular myth.WJ and TT
I could explain to you both again who goes to heaven, and who doesn't; who will become a spirit being, and who wont. If you are “”really”” interested in this subject, you go to “Biblical Prophecy”, and read my article on “The Rapture”, and “Left behind”. I am not telling you, you have to believe what I say, but we can debate there without me having to repeat myself, or going back and forth.
Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 25 2009,01:26) WJ and TT I could explain to you both again who goes to heaven, and who doesn't; who will become a spirit being, and who wont. If you are “”really”” interested in this subject, you go to “Biblical Prophecy”, and read my article on “The Rapture”, and “Left behind”. I am not telling you, you have to believe what I say, but we can debate there without me having to repeat myself, or going back and forth.
Georg
Okay Georg,
I'll be there after the Memorial day holiday. It is Sunday in my part of the world.thinker
thinker………All spirits return to GOD who gave it, and if GOD is in Heaven then so are those spirits, but that does not say they are alive does it, in fact scripture say when a man dies his (THOUGHTS PARISH) so how could he think then if his thoughts (PARISH) , he no longer exists as far as he knows, He has perished, so this perished person must (PUT ON) an imperishable state, which when he died it left him in perished state. GOD must resurrect Him and give him a new body that will not parish and add spirit back into it. Thinker if you think you have that now try walking through a wall, test your theory out. IMO
gene
hi to all
the rapture only came to be in the 17century by a protestant ,before that time no one evere read it or is stated in books,like Paul said be carefull not to stumbal in your pad you can mis the outcome of the price GOD is given.Hi Nick,
In 70AD is when Preterists believe “all” Prophecy was fulfilled, including Jesus return.
I think you are fimiliar with my beliefs, but if not please ask “specific questions”; OK?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Gene,
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and “WE” will come unto him, and make “OUR” abode with him.
Jesus fulfilled this Prophecy when HE returned (in spirit form) on “Pentecost” <– see link
2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though
we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
Indeed we do not know Jesus Christ now after the flesh as now the Lord is the Spirit.
And when he returns it will not be in a flesh body but a spiritual body.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2012,08:28) Hi ED,
Indeed we do not know Jesus Christ now after the flesh as now the Lord is the Spirit.
And when he returns it will not be in a flesh body but a spiritual body.
Hi Nick,John 14:23 says him, not them; in light of your beliefs, how do you account for this?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and “WE” will come unto him, and make “OUR” abode with him.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him, and “WE” will come unto him, and make “OUR” abode with him.The Spirit of Christ in the Spirit of God will live in any man washed in the name of Jesus.
They will come to HIM.Hi Ed,
In spiritual terms the Word is in the Father and the Father is in the Word.
We can fellowship with THEM if we abide in the teachings[2jn9]Hi Nick,
“The Word” is God's “HolySpirit”, rather than Jesus. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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